Problem with Undergraduate Research

[Snoopy92]

Hi all,

I am a 2nd semester freshman with a 4.0 GPA majoring in Biology and am trying to pursue a career in either medicine or pharmacy. The problem (in my opinion) is that I have received an opportunity to work in a research lab, one of the best on the campus. As of right now I have to volunteer in the lab ~20 hrs+ a week and go to classes (15 credits this semester). I feel as though I really don't have enough time to do all that I like such as time to do work, relax, study, go to the gym, or even necessities like eating or laundry because all the time I have is spent in the lab. For instance this past week, I was in the lab until about 9:00 PM and by the time I came back to my dorm and ate dinner it was 10:00 PM. One extreme case, I was in the lab running PCRs for a long time until about 11:00 PM. Typically, each day I wake up at about 8 AM because I have early classes so I'm so exhausted during those classes as well. My problem is whether or not I would be dumb to give up this opportunity because its not something that happens everyday. Yet, I barely have time to get my work done either. I've been talking to some of the lab assistants which all have their bachelors and some phds about whether or not I should quit. Some say I should stay because it looks great on my resume as a freshman pursuing something professional but at the same time some say they wouldn't blame me for quitting as it is a really really hectic lab (some people pull all nighters in the lab regularly). At first I assumed I would be able to work the summer and the following semester but I can no longer do that, so I think it might be better to just quit since a semester of research might not do much? What is the consensus on undergraduate research? Is it necessary? is it worth dropping my GPA a bit? What should I do?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[iusesharpies]

Do nottt sacrifice your GPA. If its possible, drop one of your classes and ask if you can get units for your lab time? Good luck.

 

[nabeel76]

Do you enjoy the research you are doing in the lab? Can you see yourself conducting research in medical school and beyond? Do you think you will have an opportunity to conduct research in the same lab beyond this semester and could it possibly lead to a publication?

If so, then I would recommend droping a couple of your classes to free up time for the research. You will end up learning a lot of practical knowledge that will not only help you tremendously for some of your upper level classes in biology but will also lead to a great letter of recommendation at the end of the day - especially if you can stay in the lab for several years. I agree with one of the other posters, drop a course and see if you can register for the research and obtain credits from it instead. Also if you see yourself consistently doing 20+ hours a week I would drop your total credit load from 15 to about 12 to ensure it doesn't affect your grades at the end of the day because that is ultimately more important than doing research. You can easily make up the lost three credits or so each semester via summer courses to keep you on track for graduation.

If you don't enjoy the research or see yourself doing research in the future, well then its simple - just drop it. Keep your classes and focus on doing well in those instead.

 

[Snoopy92]

Do you enjoy the research you are doing in the lab? Can you see yourself conducting research in medical school and beyond? Do you think you will have an opportunity to conduct research in the same lab beyond this semester and could it possibly lead to a publication?

If so, then I would recommend droping a couple of your classes to free up time for the research. You will end up learning a lot of practical knowledge that will not only help you tremendously for some of your upper level classes in biology but will also lead to a great letter of recommendation at the end of the day - especially if you can stay in the lab for several years. I agree with one of the other posters, drop a course and see if you can register for the research and obtain credits from it instead. Also if you see yourself consistently doing 20+ hours a week I would drop your total credit load from 15 to about 12 to ensure it doesn't affect your grades at the end of the day because that is ultimately more important than doing research. You can easily make up the lost three credits or so each semester via summer courses to keep you on track for graduation.

If you don't enjoy the research or see yourself doing research in the future, well then its simple - just drop it. Keep your classes and focus on doing well in those instead.

I find the subject of diseases and immunology really interesting and that is what the lab is about. I feel I would have loved the research if it wasn't as time consuming but it is. Its a hard feeling to describe like I absolutely loathe working in the lab because I'm stressed for time but when I'm out of it, I feel like I can keep going probably because the stress is gone. I'm not sure if i'd be given the opportunity to work in the same lab again because I am the only undergraduate in the lab and was told I had to stay the summer. Well because of financial problems I can no longer stay the summer and with the next semester I am taking 18 credits w/ochem and doubt I can juggle it. In his own words, "its pointless to train someone for a semester and let him go," so I wonder if I might as well just quit right now. Its not possible for me to drop a class at the moment without using one of my withdraws which just looks bad on the application. So I'm at a lost because I'm not sure if the PI would even want me to work in his lab if I can't for a longer period of time. I really want to be able to put this on my resume but not sure how long I have to stay in the lab for to be able to. I guess the argument was made when someone told me, well by doing research as a freshman you have a ridiculous advantage to others so you will regret it if you quit, but a part of me wants to have the normal freshman experience and just start doing research as a junior or summer of sophomore year. I'm not really sure what to do at all because I only have one chance to make the right decision. What is the best approach I can take?

 

[iusesharpies]

As a freshman in research, you will have a huge advantage over others because you have the potential to be in the same lab for 3.5 years. This is a big deal from what I hear. (PI and postdocs will weep at the thought of you graduating and leaving..) In the beginning is basic training and the longer you stay the more involved you are qualified to be. Naturally, you can get some very serious experience. On the other hand, the later you start, you will need to go through the whole training process and the shorter your real research time.

However, it really depends on how this all fits in your overall goals and budget. If research is not that big of a deal to you...you can put it off until later and land another position.

 

[Snoopy92]

As a freshman in research, you will have a huge advantage over others because you have the potential to be in the same lab for 3.5 years. This is a big deal from what I hear. (PI and postdocs will weep at the thought of you graduating and leaving..) In the beginning is basic training and the longer you stay the more involved you are qualified to be. Naturally, you can get some very serious experience. On the other hand, the later you start, you will need to go through the whole training process and the shorter your real research time.

However, it really depends on how this all fits in your overall goals and budget. If research is not that big of a deal to you...you can put it off until later and land another position.

I completely agree but the problem is I don't think I can commit 20 hours a week for the next 3.5 years... I was speaking with someone in the lab and he said that "this is the lab is not really the learning experience, they kind of just throw you in and hope you survive. Most labs require only about 9 - 10 hours a week for freshman but in this lab you're most likely going to start doing 20 hrs to about 30 - 40 hours." That kind of put me on edge quite a bit because I can not honestly say I can commit like that...

 

[iusesharpies]

I completely agree but the problem is I don't think I can commit 20 hours a week for the next 3.5 years... I was speaking with someone in the lab and he said that "this is the lab is not really the learning experience, they kind of just throw you in and hope you survive. Most labs require only about 9 - 10 hours a week for freshman but in this lab you're most likely going to start doing 20 hrs to about 30 - 40 hours." That kind of put me on edge quite a bit because I can not honestly say I can commit like that...

I agree that 30-40 hours is a big commitment. I think 20-25 hrs/week is where you might want to max out, in general.... Anyways, it might be in your best interest to just drop the lab commitment, focus on your schoolwork, and just accept that although this was an awesome opportunity, it just was at the wrong time in your life. Also, since you were able to land a position as a freshman, your preparation will only be better as you move on and you should be in good shape to start another lab position later on. Good luck!!

 

[Snoopy92]

I agree that 30-40 hours is a big commitment. I think 20-25 hrs/week is where you might want to max out, in general.... Anyways, it might be in your best interest to just drop the lab commitment, focus on your schoolwork, and just accept that although this was an awesome opportunity, it just was at the wrong time in your life. Also, since you were able to land a position as a freshman, your preparation will only be better as you move on and you should be in good shape to start another lab position later on. Good luck!!

Would it be a bad idea to put this experience on my resume if I were to quit relatively soon? Still thinking...

 

[iusesharpies]

Would it be a bad idea to put this experience on my resume if I were to quit relatively soon? Still thinking...

I am not sure how well that would go over.... TBH, I've been in my lab for a couple months and I still don't feel like I can add it to my resume.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I find the subject of diseases and immunology really interesting and that is what the lab is about. I feel I would have loved the research if it wasn't as time consuming but it is. Its a hard feeling to describe like I absolutely loathe working in the lab because I'm stressed for time but when I'm out of it, I feel like I can keep going probably because the stress is gone. I'm not sure if i'd be given the opportunity to work in the same lab again because I am the only undergraduate in the lab and was told I had to stay the summer. Well because of financial problems I can no longer stay the summer and with the next semester I am taking 18 credits w/ochem and doubt I can juggle it. In his own words, "its pointless to train someone for a semester and let him go," so I wonder if I might as well just quit right now. Its not possible for me to drop a class at the moment without using one of my withdraws which just looks bad on the application. So I'm at a lost because I'm not sure if the PI would even want me to work in his lab if I can't for a longer period of time. I really want to be able to put this on my resume but not sure how long I have to stay in the lab for to be able to. I guess the argument was made when someone told me, well by doing research as a freshman you have a ridiculous advantage to others so you will regret it if you quit, but a part of me wants to have the normal freshman experience and just start doing research as a junior or summer of sophomore year. I'm not really sure what to do at all because I only have one chance to make the right decision. What is the best approach I can take?

Any meaningful research will require you to put in a ton of hours in the lab, whether it's freshman year or senior year. There's really no way to shortcut through good research.

The bigger question is, are you working in a research lab because you think that the experience will help out during med school applications or are you genuinely interested in possibly having an academic career? If your primary motive is for the experience to distinguish you from others during med school apps, there's a decent chance you'll be miserable with working in a lab, even if you got to put in fewer hours.

What I'm saying may sound a little cliche, but honestly, if you want to conduct meaningful research, you will have to put in the time and effort to do so. There's nothing wrong with waiting until junior year to start conducting research. No one's making you do it during freshman year. So if you're miserable in the lab, quit. It's that simple.

PS. I also have no clue what you mean that the lab is "one of the best on campus." Is the PI a big name in the field? Is it a productive lab that publishes every other week or something? Or something else? Either way, most adcoms will probably not know who the big names in specific fields are. So, it's not really giving you that much of advantage...

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

Would it be a bad idea to put this experience on my resume if I were to quit relatively soon? Still thinking...

I am not sure how well that would go over.... TBH, I've been in my lab for a couple months and I still don't feel like I can add it to my resume.

I, personally (opinion here, not fact), would not list it as an experience. In the beginning, you're generally learning different lab techniques, etc. Not conducting independent research.

 

[Snoopy92]

Any meaningful research will require you to put in a ton of hours in the lab, whether it's freshman year or senior year. There's really no way to shortcut through good research.

The bigger question is, are you working in a research lab because you think that the experience will help out during med school applications or are you genuinely interested in possibly having an academic career? If your primary motive is for the experience to distinguish you from others during med school apps, there's a decent chance you'll be miserable with working in a lab, even if you got to put in fewer hours.

What I'm saying may sound a little cliche, but honestly, if you want to conduct meaningful research, you will have to put in the time and effort to do so. There's nothing wrong with waiting until junior year to start conducting research. No one's making you do it during freshman year. So if you're miserable in the lab, quit. It's that simple.

PS. I also have no clue what you mean that the lab is "one of the best on campus." Is the PI a big name in the field? Is it a productive lab that publishes every other week or something? Or something else? Either way, most adcoms will probably not know who the big names in specific fields are. So, it's not really giving you that much of advantage...

Well I do like to learn the new techniques and the information about diseases but for it to destroy almost all balance in life is a trade I'm not sure if I want to make. If I were to stop now I would most likely try to find a position the summer of my incoming junior year but the only thing holding me back is that if this is such a great opportunity maybe I should just suck it up until the point where I can take no more ie. barely being able to study for exams or grades start dropping but if the latter happens it might be too late. I'm doing the lab experience for a few reasons. One to see what the life of a researcher is like (already fufilled this one), to gain some valuable skills in the field, and to become more competitive. There is a big difference in having only to work 2 hours a day 5 days a week vs working 4 hours a day with the occasional 7 hours a day 5 days a week. If it was only 2 I feel I probably would be able to handle it with the rest of my life.

What I ment by "one of the best on campus" was for instance most labs produce 4 -5 publications a year while this lab published 19 the last year and just received a huge grant for research.

Wouldn't it be better to put it on the resume as long as you could explain it. Since it would attract the attention of interested parties and would show you have done the training before to being lab work?

 

[raltima07]

19 publications a year? How big is this lab? and will you be a coauthor on any of them? If so, I might considering staying for this semester, get the pub, then lower your hours. If they kick you out, you got a pub. if not, it works for you.

Win win

 

[Snoopy92]

I doubt I'll be a coauthor in any publications during a a semester if I were to stay. I've been doing more reading on the subject of my problem and it seems like a big problem would be a LOR. One of the most important things that I could gain from this is a significant LOR but with the amount of people in the lab it would be really difficult for him to know who I am at a level to be able to write a great LOR. So would it be better to get a LOR from a less intense lab as long as the person writing it genuinely knows who I am and is able to go to bat for me? Everyone is saying quit but if I were to quit and not able to put this on my resume wouldn't it just be worthless?

 

[saveourpens]

20 hours a week on top of 15 credits is a bit much. Are you getting paid or credits for your work at least? If not, you're getting used.

 

[darlin]

20 hours a week on top of 15 credits is a bit much. Are you getting paid or credits for your work at least? If not, you're getting used.

Especially if finances are a concern for you, this could be a problem.

Sometimes you have to go with your gut. From your posts you seem very unhappy with your situation. If it is such a source of stress for you, it may be better in the long run to just walk away.

Is there a lab manager you can talk to about your concerns? I am surprised that they would not want to cut you any slack if you are the only undergrad working at the lab. If you are thinking so much about quitting, it may pay off to a really frank discussion with someone in the lab, even if the prospect seems nerve wracking.

 

[nabeel76]

Have you sat the professor down and had a talk with him? It sounds as if somebody else in the lab is telling you that they are going to require 20-40 hours of work from you. What does the professor actually expect? Can you try and explain your situation to him? He has got to understand that you have a full load of classes, are not getting paid for the research, nor are you getting any credits for it or full-filling any requirements unlike the graduate students in his lab. He can't expect 20+ hours from you, maybe he can lower his expectations a bit - if he's even expecting that much to begin with.

Additionally, you mentioned that he doesn't want to train someone that is going to end up leaving. This sounds to me that he does want to keep you in the lab and that you will have an opportunity to do 3+ years at his lab, have you told him that although you will not be able to do the summer that you will be able to return in the Fall? Once again he's got to realize that you have other commitments in the summer, which may include lack of funding, and that the experience you acquire from his lab will not go to waste if you come back in the fall.

The way I see it it's either one of two things, (1) you haven't directly expressed your concerns to the PI but have been dealing with some grad student or postdoc employee that wants to use you by getting you to do all of the time-consuming procedures such as western blots, eliza's etc. so that he/she can interpert the results and get ahead with his/her research; or (2) your professor is really being hard headed, stuborn, and unreasonable and if that's the case maybe you should just look for another lab this semester in a smaller lab were the professor isn't that inconsiderate and out of touch with reality.

P.S. Also, if you do decide to drop a class and get a W its not going to be that big a deal. It's only when students have a pattern of W's in which it looks as if the student is avoiding hard teachers, classes, etc. in which it becomes a problem. A lone W or two along the way is not going to be a problem. If your ever even asked about it (which I highly doubt) your explanation in which you wanted to focus on the research opportunity is more than sufficient and will probably be viewed positively.

 

[SilverBvllet]

Depends on what you want.

If you want to publish you should probably be spending more time in lab. If you just want an abstract 20 hrs is enough, maybe even 10 is enough.

If you want the research experience and want to know what real research is like, well just keep in mind grad students do like 80 hr weeks in lab. Yes you're an undergraduate but your classes do not take up 60 hrs/week.

If you just want to be a doctor/pharm and 20 hr weeks are affecting your grades then you should focus on grades. You cannot go back and erase a bad grade. I would not recommend sacrificing GPA for research/volunteering/excessive partying/etc. If the research is affecting your social life and not your grades you need to ask yourself which one is more important to you.

I disagree with the others. Just because it is hard and stressful doesn't mean you should quit. Anything is hard and stressful at the beginning (esp. something like research). Anything worth doing is difficult. Once you push through the first year you'll be glad you stuck with it.

 

[kami333]

Definitely talk to the PI and see if you can find a common ground. Quitting, especially once you've put in some time, doesn't benefit anyone (except maybe another student waiting to take your spot😀). And while working for free for the first few months is fine (and expected at some institutions) you should ask to get paid if you work over the summer. Depending on your institution there are grants and undergrad research programs that will make it free for your PI though they come with a little extra paperwork.

If you quit I wouldn't put it on your resume if you've been there less than a semester, I would actually avoid mentioning it at all if possible. I know it seems great to be associated with an important lab/PI and be able to "name drop" but a short commitment is just going to make it look like you weren't able to handle it and you'll look like a flake. Quitting at the end/beginning of a semester looks better since those are natural breaks in your schedule.


OK this is going to sound harsh but...

I work full time in a lab (45-60hrs/week) and have taken 16 credit hours, and still found time to go volunteer for 4hrs/week. Hang out on the non-trad forum and you'll find people who've done that on top of taking care of a family and more. It's called time management and prioritizing. I've been there, took me until I was 25 to figure it out🙂

And you also have to realize that the big important highly regarded labs become that way and stay that way because of the people they attract. People whose entire lives revolve around research. People who find it relaxing to curl up by the fire and read a journal article. You can't expect to be a part of it if you don't have the same mentality.

Being in a big lab and being published often is great but don't forget that good research is done in smaller (and more laid back) labs too.

 

[Snoopy92]

Have you sat the professor down and had a talk with him? It sounds as if somebody else in the lab is telling you that they are going to require 20-40 hours of work from you. What does the professor actually expect? Can you try and explain your situation to him? He has got to understand that you have a full load of classes, are not getting paid for the research, nor are you getting any credits for it or full-filling any requirements unlike the graduate students in his lab. He can't expect 20+ hours from you, maybe he can lower his expectations a bit - if he's even expecting that much to begin with.

Additionally, you mentioned that he doesn't want to train someone that is going to end up leaving. This sounds to me that he does want to keep you in the lab and that you will have an opportunity to do 3+ years at his lab, have you told him that although you will not be able to do the summer that you will be able to return in the Fall? Once again he's got to realize that you have other commitments in the summer, which may include lack of funding, and that the experience you acquire from his lab will not go to waste if you come back in the fall.

The way I see it it's either one of two things, (1) you haven't directly expressed your concerns to the PI but have been dealing with some grad student or postdoc employee that wants to use you by getting you to do all of the time-consuming procedures such as western blots, eliza's etc. so that he/she can interpert the results and get ahead with his/her research; or (2) your professor is really being hard headed, stuborn, and unreasonable and if that's the case maybe you should just look for another lab this semester in a smaller lab were the professor isn't that inconsiderate and out of touch with reality.

P.S. Also, if you do decide to drop a class and get a W its not going to be that big a deal. It's only when students have a pattern of W's in which it looks as if the student is avoiding hard teachers, classes, etc. in which it becomes a problem. A lone W or two along the way is not going to be a problem. If your ever even asked about it (which I highly doubt) your explanation in which you wanted to focus on the research opportunity is more than sufficient and will probably be viewed positively.

I talked to him a few days ago and he said he was fine with me just workign the semester but it would be more of a process to recuperate the time they used to train me... I would be stuck doing grunt work and the chances of getting a publication are obviously out. The only thing I would be able to reap from this is a LOR and resume foddler. I can not return in the fall because I am taking ochem and atleast 18 or 21 credits. Probably more like 18 cause I will be dropping a class but with 15 credits now and I can barely make time, with 18 it would be impossible. My biggest concern is my social life and grades. This job creates a ton of stress for me because I have to rearrange all of my schedule to make it work and each day has no structure which I kind of would like at least a little of. As I stated earlier, I currently have a 4.0 and would like to keep it that way for as long as possible. I'm not saying I would be able to keep the 4.0 even if I quit and doing the lab and keeping the 4.0 is definitely a possibility but like a poster above has stated you can always get another lab opportunity but another chance at a grade. I am not getting any credits and am not sure what to do. I'm sure he already knows of my intent but is trying to keep me to do grunt work, "data entry, pcr, cleaning, mailing, etc".

The only logical solution I can think of is working another week or two and if any of my grades drop instantly quit because they are of more importance. What should I do? I woke up this morning still exhausted and I didn't even go out last night, the amount of stress it puts on me is overwhelming at times...

 

[SilverBvllet]

Research is not something you can half-ass. Either quit and focus on grades/social life or go balls to the wall (pilot terminology) and conquer the lab. Based on your posts it seems like lab is making you miserable. Lab is not for everyone. Try volunteering or other stuff and see if that suits you better. Research is not a box to be checked off on your AMCAS. Do it if you enjoy it. If it's making you miserable, it's probably not for you, or try a different lab that's less intensive like a psych lab or something.

 

[Astarael]

I don't like using language like this at all, so hopefully that will make this comment more impactful for you: this sounds like a toxic environment that you should exit at your earliest possible convenience. If you find a good PI, that person will be a mentor for you-they'll support your academics and your research pursuits, and they'll train you because they want you to do well, not because they want to get a certain amount of work out of you (although they will expect you to work hard, they shouldn't be overworking you). Working in a lab really is a good experience, but if your PI isn't going to support your academic pursuits, I think you need to look elsewhere. Most profs realize that they aren't going to get their money's worth out of undergrad students, but they accept them anyway, because they like to teach a new generation how to be scientists.

 

[nabeel76]

I don't like using language like this at all, so hopefully that will make this comment more impactful for you: this sounds like a toxic environment that you should exit at your earliest possible convenience. If you find a good PI, that person will be a mentor for you-they'll support your academics and your research pursuits, and they'll train you because they want you to do well, not because they want to get a certain amount of work out of you (although they will expect you to work hard, they shouldn't be overworking you). Working in a lab really is a good experience, but if your PI isn't going to support your academic pursuits, I think you need to look elsewhere. Most profs realize that they aren't going to get their money's worth out of undergrad students, but they accept them anyway, because they like to teach a new generation how to be scientists.

OP - This (above) is good advice. It doesn't seem as if your PI is of the good type. Get out of that lab, focus on your grades and once you finish your 18 credit semester in the Fall you can find another lab with a PI that is there to mentor you and help you succeed. You'll as a result still manage to get 2+ years of research, which is great, and a more understanding PI will most likely write you a better LOR as well.

 

[Snoopy92]

OP - This (above) is good advice. It doesn't seem as if your PI is of the good type. Get out of that lab, focus on your grades and once you finish your 18 credit semester in the Fall you can find another lab with a PI that is there to mentor you and help you succeed. You'll as a result still manage to get 2+ years of research, which is great, and a more understanding PI will most likely write you a better LOR as well.

I'm trying to think of a way to get out, but I wonder if a "I quit" will suffice because I want to leave on a good note. I'm not sure if thats going to be possible because if I mess up my grades even once it'll be hard to recover. So it will be to late. Its like how the PI says "if your grades drop then you can quit" but at that point its already too late... maybe I'm just thinking of it wrong?

 

[CoolWhipp]

Never ever sacrifice your grades. Ever.

 

[nabeel76]

I'm trying to think of a way to get out, but I wonder if a "I quit" will suffice because I want to leave on a good note. I'm not sure if thats going to be possible because if I mess up my grades even once it'll be hard to recover. So it will be to late. Its like how the PI says "if your grades drop then you can quit" but at that point its already too late... maybe I'm just thinking of it wrong?

Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here, but if you want to leave the lab then just go talk to your PI and be honest about the situation. Just tell him/her that your classes are starting to demand more of your time and that you can't keep up with the hours required in lab. Follow that up with something along the lines of how much you enjoy the research and how grateful you are for the opportunity, but that you don't want to be a burden on the rest of your lab associates since you are not going to have the time to dedicate yourself to the research anymore etc.

That's all you pretty much need to say, it keeps it professional and should be sufficient for you to leave on good terms. If he/she - for whatever reason - has a problem or seems annoyed by this I wouldn't even waste another minute worrying about it since at the end of the day it really doesn't matter. Your not going to ask him for a LOR and you don't need his blessing in any way for continuing your process to a successful med school app.

 

[SilverBvllet]

I think after all this advice if you cannot figure out how to leave a lab, then research is the least of your worries. Look on the bright side though, if you marry someone like yourself you guys will never get divorced.