Professionalism

[needscaffeine]

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Would really appreciate some advice. I came to find that my friend was essentially being “gas lighted” by a medical resident (forgive the over-dramatization, but cannot think of a more appropriate classification). As someone in the medical field, I honestly felt as though this individual was abusing their role as a physician by making my friend think that very normal behavioral patterns were severe medical issues. Certainly, my friend is not perfect and both have parted ways, but I can’t help think that I should bring this to the attention of this person’s program for a “professionalism inquiry”. It is one thing to express dislike for a personality trait; quite another to categorize it as a "disorder" on medical grounds. I know that no medications were dispensed and my friend is fine. Regardless, I can't help worry that my silence may cause problems for someone who may really believe this unsolicited medical advice? I do not want to call my own license into question and am not sure if it is best to let it go, or try to make a general composition to the program coordinator in a diplomatic manner. Certainly, no one likes a "whistle-blower", but can't help wonder if maybe it is warranted in this instance. Thank you!

 

[gutonc]

One more time...preferably in English. Bonus points if there's a paragraph break or two.

What are you saying/asking here?

 

[Light at end of tunnel]

One more time...preferably in English. Bonus points if there's a paragraph break or two.

WTF are you saying/asking here?

LOL - My thoughts as well, except I'd prolly get administered if I said that. I actually did once for asking an OP "wtf are you smoking" relating to a confusing first post.

But hey, liking your resposnsebis just as glorious.

 

[needscaffeine]

One more time...preferably in English. Bonus points if there's a paragraph break or two.

WTF are you saying/asking here?

Sorry. Guess I let emotions get in the way of formulating a concise inquiry. Take 2. My friend had been talking to a medical resident who would characterize personality traits as a personality disorder on medical grounds. Since my friend was not said individual's patient, I did not know if I should report the unsolicited medical advice to the resident's program coordinator to conduct a professionalism inquiry. It is one thing in a relationship to tell someone they do not appreciate a personality trait;quite another to make a person outside of the medical field think that being "high strung" or "overly nice" (which my friend is to a fault) is a personality disorder. Does that make more sense? Thanks for reviewing!

 

[Smurfette]

Sounds like a private matter between two individuals and there was NO assumed physician-patient relationship. Definitely stay out of this. Not an appropriate thing to report.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

Is there proof of professional misconduct in writing?

 

[needscaffeine]

So to translate...your friend was dating a resident who made her feel bad about herself? They've now broken up and you are asking if we think you should try to ruin his life by jeopardizing his job?

Um. No.

I appreciate the feedback. I am doing a poor job of explaining the situation. No, I don't want to intentionally cost someone their job. At the same time I don't think it is right for a resident to be making someone believe they have certain conditions on medical grounds AND recommending prescriptions to boot. One thing to say "your nuts, adios". That is someone making another feel badly about themselves in a relationship. Another to say you have "x type" disorder and need "x" type prescription repeatedly.

Regardless, we all make mistakes and neither my friend nor I are perfect. In short, no, I don't want to jeopardize someone's job or my own because some self-proclaimed "Dr. House" type jerk (and yes this person actually likened themselves to Dr. House...) made my friend feel badly. Just did not want that individual to think it was ok to use diagnostic criteria and essentially make another person think (hence the term gas-lighting) that they had a condition that was not really there. Or even if it was, it was not their place to make a diagnosis outside of the professional realm.

Granted, it still is a personal choice to add credibility to anyone's viewpoints;doctor or not. Guess, I will let it go. Thank you again.

 

[DrfluffyMD]

I appreciate the feedback. I am doing a poor job of explaining the situation. No, I don't want to intentionally cost someone their job. At the same time I don't think it is right for a resident to be making someone believe they have certain conditions on medical grounds AND recommending prescriptions to boot. One thing to say "your nuts, adios". That is someone making another feel badly about themselves in a relationship. Another to say you have "x type" disorder and need "x" type prescription repeatedly.

Regardless, we all make mistakes and neither my friend nor I are perfect. In short, no, I don't want to jeopardize someone's job or my own because some self-proclaimed "Dr. House" type jerk (and yes this person actually likened themselves to Dr. House...) made my friend feel badly. Just did not want that individual to think it was ok to use diagnostic criteria and essentially make another person think (hence the term gas-lighting) that they had a condition that was not really there. Or even if it was, it was not their place to make a diagnosis outside of the professional realm.

Granted, it still is a personal choice to add credibility to anyone's viewpoints;doctor or not. Guess, I will let it go. Thank you again.

If there is nothing in writting, it's just a he-said-she-said situation.

 

[needscaffeine]

LOL - My thoughts as well, except I'd prolly get administered if I said that. I actually did once for asking an OP "wtf are you smoking" relating to a confusing first post.

But hey, liking your resposnsebis just as glorious.

Guess that is what I get for trying to make extra $ by entering screenplay competitions...haha. Imagine debt/finance is in another forum, so will not digress further! In short, dramatic writing really curtails brevity.... Sorry for the novel, everyone! All the feedback is appreciated!

 

[RadOncDoc21]

Confused am I.

 

[needscaffeine]

If there is nothing in writting, it's just a he-said-she-said situation.

Thank you for taking the time to review/respond. I would categorize the texts as bordering on professional misconduct, because any such communications even hinting at a diagnosis on medical grounds would be grounds for termination in my role. Regardless, I guess professional outrage at such actions do not warrant a professionalism inquiry on behalf of a friend who just happened to meet a narcissistic resident. Will let it go. Thank you again!

 

[needscaffeine]

Confused am I.

That response was geared towards "Light at end of Tunnel" and "gutonc". Just was making light of the fact that my initial inquiry was not exactly the "sparknotes" version of the novel and indeed warranted such a response. Attributed the "novella" to all the screenwriting I am doing to try my hand at winning a screenplay competition for extra money...Haha. Sorry for the confusion!

 

[DrfluffyMD]

That response was geared towards "Light at end of Tunnel" and "gutonc". Just was making light of the fact that my initial inquiry was not exactly the "sparknotes" version of the novel and indeed warranted such a response. Attributed the "novella" to all the screenwriting I am doing to try my hand at winning a screenplay competition for extra money...Haha. Sorry for the confusion!

Just post the long version of the story.

 

[rokshana]

I appreciate the feedback. I am doing a poor job of explaining the situation. No, I don't want to intentionally cost someone their job. At the same time I don't think it is right for a resident to be making someone believe they have certain conditions on medical grounds AND recommending prescriptions to boot. One thing to say "your nuts, adios". That is someone making another feel badly about themselves in a relationship. Another to say you have "x type" disorder and need "x" type prescription repeatedly.

Regardless, we all make mistakes and neither my friend nor I are perfect. In short, no, I don't want to jeopardize someone's job or my own because some self-proclaimed "Dr. House" type jerk (and yes this person actually likened themselves to Dr. House...) made my friend feel badly. Just did not want that individual to think it was ok to use diagnostic criteria and essentially make another person think (hence the term gas-lighting) that they had a condition that was not really there. Or even if it was, it was not their place to make a diagnosis outside of the professional realm.

Granted, it still is a personal choice to add credibility to anyone's viewpoints;doctor or not. Guess, I will let it go. Thank you again.

are you now dating this friend?
if your "friend" has an issue with it, then s/he needs to bring it up...and you can be supportive.

but frankly, its nun-ya...

 

[Crayola227]

LOL, of course I followed this from the first post. Call it a meeting of like minds.

If there is no chance of this affecting your own career (and yes, people will chime in to say medicine is a small world and the chances of this are very low), it might be worth considering. If it's just going to bone you, I wouldn't under any circumstances. You might also consider how this might negatively impact the other party involved as well.

Anyone can report anything about any provider at any time, with no evidence, is the reality. What that ultimately means will depend, of course. Again, whether or not this is a good idea, or how seriously this is taken in light of weak sauce evidence, I couldn't say.

In fact, perhaps the best place to go would actually be the Medical Board. In fact, that would likely be where this would most likely receive actual action, at least in the form of actual inquiry, at least on paper. This may also be the most anonymous route. Although it would likely lead nowhere IMHO, besides a wrist slap reminder about how inappropriate it is to offer unsolicited medical advice outside the bounds of an appropriate doctor-patient relationship, that might be just what this physician needs.

OTOH, I would expect the program has the sort of dog-in-the-fight here not to give any ****s about it. They don't generally like to get their residents in trouble in any meaningful way if they can avoid it and it isn't necessary for covering their own ass.

If these two healthcare providers work together, at the same institution, and particularly if there is a supervisory component to it, then HR would likely take some sort of action. Even if it were only to document some sort of sexual harassment training.

I have seen this sort of abuse before, and I have seen it reported as well, and it did lead to some good in the form of the institution taking action against a sociopath. Ultimately the institution didn't accomplish all that it should have against this person, but it did have lasting career effects that were more than warranted, and while it didn't maximize patient safety, it did increase it.

You don't want to end this person's career, but if what you believe is truly inappropriate conduct for a physician took place, you have an ethical responsibility to report it, and that responsibility is not totally negated by you considering what effect this will have on someone's career. That is NOT your responsibility, but that of those supervising this physician's conduct. I say this given that is what I was taught in medical school.

OTOH, I was also taught that given what reports can do to a career, that there are certain things in the checkbox of "report immediately to the medical board," and that otherwise, it's slightly more complicated.

Depending on what the issue is, in a perfect universe, you might confront the person directly about their behavior. If you fear retaliation or that it might not resolve the issue, you go just right above their head. If that person is unable to bring a resolution, you keep going up the chain until you think it's resolved and your ethical responsibility is met.

I'm not sure that this is the sort of professionalism issue that is best dealt with in the "direct" route above, or with any of the authorities supervising this physician, below the program or the Medical Board.

Keep in mind as well, while this one instance may not end up going very far, and perhaps it shouldn't in the grand scheme of things, (perhaps this is just one lapse of this provider's judgment with another provider in the bounds of an otherwise ill-advised relationship), physicians with real professionalism issues have a pattern of behavior. It is only by documenting such lapses in judgment that any pattern can be recognized and addressed appropriately.

TLDR:
You can report anything about anyone at any time with no evidence.
Sadly, I say that you must consider how this might hurt you or the other party involved.
Ultimate consequences, what good this does, I can't say.
If you really believe this is a professionalism issue, (I believe it is), you have an ethical duty to take action, but that must be carefully considered.
Sometimes the only good this does is creating a data point that might ultimately reveal a truly unprofessional doc for what they are.

 

[Apollyon]

Just to give another viewpoint...

When I got to residency in NC, we had a presentation from the NC Medical Board, where the executive director was nearly gleeful in stating a case of a male physician that was working as an exotic dancer (but not nude), and they disciplined him, despite what he was doing being completely legal. They called it "unprofessional". Now, there was a resident that was said to have paid her way through med school by stripping or topless dancing, but I never found out who it was, and she never got called by the NCMB.

Just sayin'.

 

[azmang108]

what are your screenplays about?

 

[DrfluffyMD]

LOL, of course I followed this from the first post. Call it a meeting of like minds.

If there is no chance of this affecting your own career (and yes, people will chime in to say medicine is a small world and the chances of this are very low), it might be worth considering. If it's just going to bone you, I wouldn't under any circumstances. You might also consider how this might negatively impact the other party involved as well.

Anyone can report anything about any provider at any time, with no evidence, is the reality. What that ultimately means will depend, of course. Again, whether or not this is a good idea, or how seriously this is taken in light of weak sauce evidence, I couldn't say.

In fact, perhaps the best place to go would actually be the Medical Board. In fact, that would likely be where this would most likely receive actual action, at least in the form of actual inquiry, at least on paper. This may also be the most anonymous route. Although it would likely lead nowhere IMHO, besides a wrist slap reminder about how inappropriate it is to offer unsolicited medical advice outside the bounds of an appropriate doctor-patient relationship, that might be just what this physician needs.

OTOH, I would expect the program has the sort of dog-in-the-fight here not to give any ****s about it. They don't generally like to get their residents in trouble in any meaningful way if they can avoid it and it isn't necessary for covering their own ass.

If these two healthcare providers work together, at the same institution, and particularly if there is a supervisory component to it, then HR would likely take some sort of action. Even if it were only to document some sort of sexual harassment training.

I have seen this sort of abuse before, and I have seen it reported as well, and it did lead to some good in the form of the institution taking action against a sociopath. Ultimately the institution didn't accomplish all that it should have against this person, but it did have lasting career effects that were more than warranted, and while it didn't maximize patient safety, it did increase it.

You don't want to end this person's career, but if what you believe is truly inappropriate conduct for a physician took place, you have an ethical responsibility to report it, and that responsibility is not totally negated by you considering what effect this will have on someone's career. That is NOT your responsibility, but that of those supervising this physician's conduct. I say this given that is what I was taught in medical school.

OTOH, I was also taught that given what reports can do to a career, that there are certain things in the checkbox of "report immediately to the medical board," and that otherwise, it's slightly more complicated.

Depending on what the issue is, in a perfect universe, you might confront the person directly about their behavior. If you fear retaliation or that it might not resolve the issue, you go just right above their head. If that person is unable to bring a resolution, you keep going up the chain until you think it's resolved and your ethical responsibility is met.

I'm not sure that this is the sort of professionalism issue that is best dealt with in the "direct" route above, or with any of the authorities supervising this physician, below the program or the Medical Board.

Keep in mind as well, while this one instance may not end up going very far, and perhaps it shouldn't in the grand scheme of things, (perhaps this is just one lapse of this provider's judgment with another provider in the bounds of an otherwise ill-advised relationship), physicians with real professionalism issues have a pattern of behavior. It is only by documenting such lapses in judgment that any pattern can be recognized and addressed appropriately.

TLDR:
You can report anything about anyone at any time with no evidence.
Sadly, I say that you must consider how this might hurt you or the other party involved.
Ultimate consequences, what good this does, I can't say.
If you really believe this is a professionalism issue, (I believe it is), you have an ethical duty to take action, but that must be carefully considered.
Sometimes the only good this does is creating a data point that might ultimately reveal a truly unprofessional doc for what they are.

OP, if you have actual proof of unprofessionalism, you should go to this indivdual's program director.

 

[needscaffeine]

Crayola227-Nice to meet you! I truly cannot tell you how much I appreciate your thoughtful and well constructed response. It is truly a meeting of like minds, and your kindness shines through in your responses! 🙂

You bring up many good points. I certainly do not want to jeopardize my own career, or that of my friends' who has a role outside of the medical realm which would be jeopardized as a result of personal drama. I also do not want to be responsible for ending the other party's career in the event that they are a good provider going through a hard time, and lashing out at anyone unlucky enough to cross their path.

I gathered from the communications that were exchanged that the other party had prominent narcissistic tendencies, a very short fuse and a "0 to 100 type" of reaction to very normal inquiries expressed in relationships that would make communicating anything directly very difficult. Though you do give up a valid point that anyone can bring up any concern about any provider with no evidence, I feel I could not go to the Medical Board without having been personally acquainted with the individual (my friend only showed me the communications privately to inquire if such assertions concerning medical topics could be issued so freely).

The individual's severe mood swings, made me think it was more than just extreme exhaustion or stress on their end that resulted in the medically inappropriate communications. It does pain me to think that this person would tell someone else that they will "suffer complications down the line as a result of their conservative approach to physical relationships" and that they were in need of certain medications due to "personality traits" (which were categorized as a personality disorder with zero basis in fact). Perhaps that party was only lashing out as a result of their own medical issues and if that should be the case then I can only hope that this is identified by their program promptly and treated immediately.

My friend has requested that the matter is left alone, so I imagine that I must honor those wishes and hope that the individual does not repeat this offensive behavior. It is truly sickening that some physicians can and will use their title to manipulate really nice people outside of the medical realm, but any recourse may only lead to more issues for all parties involved at this point in time.

I do believe in karma and do think that in time repeated patterns of "mental abuse under the guise of medicine" will be detected (forgive me if I am using the term too literally; however, I detected gas lighting and feel strongly that this is a form of abuse). I do not know what type of actual provider this person is, so will hope that karmic justice will come into play should the individual repeat their behavior to someone who is not so nice. As you kindly pointed out, those repeated patterns are tracked and in time, hopefully addressed! 🙂

Thank you again!

LOL, of course I followed this from the first post. Call it a meeting of like minds.

If there is no chance of this affecting your own career (and yes, people will chime in to say medicine is a small world and the chances of this are very low), it might be worth considering. If it's just going to bone you, I wouldn't under any circumstances. You might also consider how this might negatively impact the other party involved as well.

Anyone can report anything about any provider at any time, with no evidence, is the reality. What that ultimately means will depend, of course. Again, whether or not this is a good idea, or how seriously this is taken in light of weak sauce evidence, I couldn't say.

In fact, perhaps the best place to go would actually be the Medical Board. In fact, that would likely be where this would most likely receive actual action, at least in the form of actual inquiry, at least on paper. This may also be the most anonymous route. Although it would likely lead nowhere IMHO, besides a wrist slap reminder about how inappropriate it is to offer unsolicited medical advice outside the bounds of an appropriate doctor-patient relationship, that might be just what this physician needs.

OTOH, I would expect the program has the sort of dog-in-the-fight here not to give any ****s about it. They don't generally like to get their residents in trouble in any meaningful way if they can avoid it and it isn't necessary for covering their own ass.

If these two healthcare providers work together, at the same institution, and particularly if there is a supervisory component to it, then HR would likely take some sort of action. Even if it were only to document some sort of sexual harassment training.

I have seen this sort of abuse before, and I have seen it reported as well, and it did lead to some good in the form of the institution taking action against a sociopath. Ultimately the institution didn't accomplish all that it should have against this person, but it did have lasting career effects that were more than warranted, and while it didn't maximize patient safety, it did increase it.

You don't want to end this person's career, but if what you believe is truly inappropriate conduct for a physician took place, you have an ethical responsibility to report it, and that responsibility is not totally negated by you considering what effect this will have on someone's career. That is NOT your responsibility, but that of those supervising this physician's conduct. I say this given that is what I was taught in medical school.

OTOH, I was also taught that given what reports can do to a career, that there are certain things in the checkbox of "report immediately to the medical board," and that otherwise, it's slightly more complicated.

Depending on what the issue is, in a perfect universe, you might confront the person directly about their behavior. If you fear retaliation or that it might not resolve the issue, you go just right above their head. If that person is unable to bring a resolution, you keep going up the chain until you think it's resolved and your ethical responsibility is met.

I'm not sure that this is the sort of professionalism issue that is best dealt with in the "direct" route above, or with any of the authorities supervising this physician, below the program or the Medical Board.

Keep in mind as well, while this one instance may not end up going very far, and perhaps it shouldn't in the grand scheme of things, (perhaps this is just one lapse of this provider's judgment with another provider in the bounds of an otherwise ill-advised relationship), physicians with real professionalism issues have a pattern of behavior. It is only by documenting such lapses in judgment that any pattern can be recognized and addressed appropriately.

TLDR:
You can report anything about anyone at any time with no evidence.
Sadly, I say that you must consider how this might hurt you or the other party involved.
Ultimate consequences, what good this does, I can't say.
If you really believe this is a professionalism issue, (I believe it is), you have an ethical duty to take action, but that must be carefully considered.
Sometimes the only good this does is creating a data point that might ultimately reveal a truly unprofessional doc for what they are.

 

[hamstergang]

I would categorize the texts as bordering on professional misconduct, because any such communications even hinting at a diagnosis on medical grounds would be grounds for termination in my role.

I'm a little confused by this phrasing you keep using. Is a diagnosis on medical grounds different than just a plain diagnosis?

 

[needscaffeine]

Just to give another viewpoint...

When I got to residency in NC, we had a presentation from the NC Medical Board, where the executive director was nearly gleeful in stating a case of a male physician that was working as an exotic dancer (but not nude), and they disciplined him, despite what he was doing being completely legal. They called it "unprofessional". Now, there was a resident that was said to have paid her way through med school by stripping or topless dancing, but I never found out who it was, and she never got called by the NCMB.

Just sayin'.

Thank you for bringing this viewpoint to light. I always appreciate someone playing "devil's advocate" and if I thought this was along the same lines of the situation expressed above then I would not be vocalizing my concerns here! 🙂 The individual referenced above was not intentionally harming anyone with their actions (well hopefully....haha). Again, thank you!

 

[NotAProgDirector]

If you're going to do anything, I think the best option is to help the friend you felt was hurt/violated report it.

Let's think about this from my viewpoint. Let's say you @needscaffeine think that SomeDude was somehow inappropriate with a friend. You've been vague enough that it's hard to know what really happened, but for the sake of discussion let's say you heard that SomeDude decided to break up with their bf/gf, but before doing so decided to convince them that they had chronic lyme disease. Because of their medical training, their ex is now 150% certain they have chronic lyme and need some insane bogus treatment for it. Perhaps you've heard, or just suspect, that they did this for "funzies", just to torture them after the breakup. Now the question is, what do you do?

You could report this to me. But then I'd need to hear it from SomeDude's ex. I don't know you, and I'm not going to just take your word for it. So, regardless, the other person is going to get dragged into this. Hence, it's better to simply help them report it to the PD (or the medical board) themselves, and leave yourself out of it as much as possible.

An interesting question is whether this is any of my business or not. Just like the example of the exotic dancer above. Or the Neuro resident who went postal on the Uber driver (although her case may be different, since a law may have been broken). But let's say I find out one of my residents is a stripper. Or is in some old pron movie. Or likes to hunt cute, fuzzy creatures. Or is a Trump supporter. Or, worst, likes Hawaiian pizza. Many people have strong feelings about these issues, and find them unprofessional, or morally objectionable. And public disclosure of these interests might impact my hospital's business. So should these things be "fair game" for my assessments? I don't have a good answer. I'd like to believe there's some sort of firewall between your public/work life and your private life -- but that wall has crumbled mainly due to social media -- In today's social media world, any post can go viral and cause lots of problems.

 

[Crayola227]

If you're going to do anything, I think the best option is to help the friend you felt was hurt/violated report it.

Let's think about this from my viewpoint. Let's say you @needscaffeine think that SomeDude was somehow inappropriate with a friend. You've been vague enough that it's hard to know what really happened, but for the sake of discussion let's say you heard that SomeDude decided to break up with their bf/gf, but before doing so decided to convince them that they had chronic lyme disease. Because of their medical training, their ex is now 150% certain they have chronic lyme and need some insane bogus treatment for it. Perhaps you've heard, or just suspect, that they did this for "funzies", just to torture them after the breakup. Now the question is, what do you do?

You could report this to me. But then I'd need to hear it from SomeDude's ex. I don't know you, and I'm not going to just take your word for it. So, regardless, the other person is going to get dragged into this. Hence, it's better to simply help them report it to the PD (or the medical board) themselves, and leave yourself out of it as much as possible.

An interesting question is whether this is any of my business or not. Just like the example of the exotic dancer above. Or the Neuro resident who went postal on the Uber driver (although her case may be different, since a law may have been broken). But let's say I find out one of my residents is a stripper. Or is in some old pron movie. Or likes to hunt cute, fuzzy creatures. Or is a Trump supporter. Or, worst, likes Hawaiian pizza. Many people have strong feelings about these issues, and find them unprofessional, or morally objectionable. And public disclosure of these interests might impact my hospital's business. So should these things be "fair game" for my assessments? I don't have a good answer. I'd like to believe there's some sort of firewall between your public/work life and your private life -- but that wall has crumbled mainly due to social media -- In today's social media world, any post can go viral and cause lots of problems.

I would second what aPD said, in that in the situation that I saw where relationship abuse between 2 providers was reported and appropriate action taken, the aggrieved party was the the one to report it. It was something I supported them in doing.

 

[needscaffeine]

Thank you so much for this response. Your hypothetical scenario sums up exactly what occurred-with exception to the condition referenced. Regardless, you are correct in that it would be up to her. She is a very nice person and wants the matter closed, so will do just that. I just do not like seeing someone so nice who is not in the medical field be treated so horribly by someone who took a vow to help others.

Thank you again!

If you're going to do anything, I think the best option is to help the friend you felt was hurt/violated report it.

Let's think about this from my viewpoint. Let's say you @needscaffeine think that SomeDude was somehow inappropriate with a friend. You've been vague enough that it's hard to know what really happened, but for the sake of discussion let's say you heard that SomeDude decided to break up with their bf/gf, but before doing so decided to convince them that they had chronic lyme disease. Because of their medical training, their ex is now 150% certain they have chronic lyme and need some insane bogus treatment for it. Perhaps you've heard, or just suspect, that they did this for "funzies", just to torture them after the breakup. Now the question is, what do you do?

You could report this to me. But then I'd need to hear it from SomeDude's ex. I don't know you, and I'm not going to just take your word for it. So, regardless, the other person is going to get dragged into this. Hence, it's better to simply help them report it to the PD (or the medical board) themselves, and leave yourself out of it as much as possible.

An interesting question is whether this is any of my business or not. Just like the example of the exotic dancer above. Or the Neuro resident who went postal on the Uber driver (although her case may be different, since a law may have been broken). But let's say I find out one of my residents is a stripper. Or is in some old pron movie. Or likes to hunt cute, fuzzy creatures. Or is a Trump supporter. Or, worst, likes Hawaiian pizza. Many people have strong feelings about these issues, and find them unprofessional, or morally objectionable. And public disclosure of these interests might impact my hospital's business. So should these things be "fair game" for my assessments? I don't have a good answer. I'd like to believe there's some sort of firewall between your public/work life and your private life -- but that wall has crumbled mainly due to social media -- In today's social media world, any post can go viral and cause lots of problems.

 

[Crayola227]

Thank you so much for this response. Your hypothetical scenario sums up exactly what occurred-with exception to the condition referenced. Regardless, you are correct in that it would be up to her. She is a very nice person and wants the matter closed, so will do just that. I just do not like seeing someone so nice who is not in the medical field be treated so horribly by someone who took a vow to help others.

Thank you again!

Although I gotta say, that at least for me, the equation changes slightly now that you mention that both parties are not in healthcare.

I guess I just feel that changes the balance of power and the potential for harm to be done. I think it's somehow worse that this was done to a layperson. It just seems more abusive to me.

It actually goes against the Oath of Geneva that most of us took to misuse our medical knowledge, which was *entrusted* to us by our brothers and sisters in medicine.

I think I mean to support you that this was absolutely unprofessional, and support should be given to the victim to do what is in their best interest. It's difficult to say what is best because it sounds like there would be negative consequences if they reported, and it's hard to say what would be gained. I would say a layperson doesn't have the same ethical responsibility to report in the interest of patient safety that a healthcare provider has, although I would still say it isn't zero. How much we try to look out for others has to be weighed against personal harm.

Given what you've added here, I think it makes even more sense to respect the wishes of the aggrieved party, while simultaneously I think what this provider has done is more serious and deserves attention.

Also, that given how serious I think this lapse is, that if this is more than one time bad behavior, this physician will likely suffer consequences at some point.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

In rereading my post, I have no idea why I picked on @gutonc. I could have just used some made-up name. My bad. I'll edit it out.

 

[Siggy]

Sorry. Guess I let emotions get in the way of formulating a concise inquiry. Take 2. My friend had been talking to a medical resident who would characterize personality traits as a personality disorder on medical grounds. Since my friend was not said individual's patient, I did not know if I should report the unsolicited medical advice to the resident's program coordinator to conduct a professionalism inquiry. It is one thing in a relationship to tell someone they do not appreciate a personality trait;quite another to make a person outside of the medical field think that being "high strung" or "overly nice" (which my friend is to a fault) is a personality disorder. Does that make more sense? Thanks for reviewing!

Can you be dependent personality and narcissistic personality at the same time?

 

[needscaffeine]

I'm a little confused by this phrasing you keep using. Is a diagnosis on medical grounds different than just a plain diagnosis?

I was trying to convey that a person in the health care field was using their title as physician to offer unsolicited medical advice to a layperson. Was using "medical diagnosis" to try to emphasize that this was not just someone in the healthcare profession making another person feel badly in a relationship. Reason why I kept emphasizing the point. You are right in that there is no difference. I could have explained more clearly in my synopsis; sorry!

 

[gutonc]

I was trying to convey that a person in the health care field was using their title as physician to offer unsolicited medical advice to a layperson.

This isn't really a "professionalism" issue. This person is just an a**hole. They're everywhere. Even in medicine.

 

[needscaffeine]

Thank you, Crayola227. Your kindness truly shines through in each response and it is refreshing to see that other physicians really do strive to uphold the Oath of Geneva in their daily lives. Your patients, friends and family are very lucky to know someone as ethical, kind and good-natured as you! 🙂

I imagine at this point it will just be a matter of offering comfort and reinforcing the message that no ethical or credible physician would ever act in such a manner, and all "opinions" (I use the term loosely since there were clear diagnosis made and prescriptions recommended) should be discredited. I will be leaving the medical field, but hope that my friend is able to find a healthcare provider as seemingly kind and professional as you should they ever need medical treatment or should they ever cross paths with another resident in their personal life.

I will hope that the individual in question will not continue to torture others in their personal life by using their title to offer unsolicited medical advice but imagine that bringing this to light would do more harm than good in this situation. Hopefully, karma will play out and the individual will see the need to change their ways after perhaps getting a taste of their own medicine in their private life, or they will be appropriately reprimanded professionally should the behavior continue.

I will relay many of these communications to my friend to show that other providers with a far greater deal of credibility and higher moral standards would not credit any such medical advice offered out of term.

If our paths do not cross again on here, then I wish you the best of luck! Thank you again for taking the time to review and advise. Wish my friend could have crossed paths with someone like you! 🙂

Although I gotta say, that at least for me, the equation changes slightly now that you mention that both parties are not in healthcare.

I guess I just feel that changes the balance of power and the potential for harm to be done. I think it's somehow worse that this was done to a layperson. It just seems more abusive to me.

It actually goes against the Oath of Geneva that most of us took to misuse our medical knowledge, which was *entrusted* to us by our brothers and sisters in medicine.

I think I mean to support you that this was absolutely unprofessional, and support should be given to the victim to do what is in their best interest. It's difficult to say what is best because it sounds like there would be negative consequences if they reported, and it's hard to say what would be gained. I would say a layperson doesn't have the same ethical responsibility to report in the interest of patient safety that a healthcare provider has, although I would still say it isn't zero. How much we try to look out for others has to be weighed against personal harm.

Given what you've added here, I think it makes even more sense to respect the wishes of the aggrieved party, while simultaneously I think what this provider has done is more serious and deserves attention.

Also, that given how serious I think this lapse is, that if this is more than one time bad behavior, this physician will likely suffer consequences at some point.

 

[needscaffeine]

what are your screenplays about?

Right now, nothing since I scrapped all of my previous drafts and am now revisiting plot lines. As I am sure is evident on here, I don't think my writing speaks to most people...Brevity and conciseness are not my forte, so have a long way to go before I am exactly writing "Quentin Tarantino" type of high action scripts...haha. Thanks for asking! 🙂

 

[needscaffeine]

This isn't really a "professionalism" issue. This person is just an a**hole. They're everywhere. Even in medicine.

You are right. I was upset for my friend and I guess I needed to take a step back and see that the individual was just a jerk. It was awful for me to see a medical professional plant such awful ideas in the head of such a nice layperson who then added weight to said ideas because they are not in the medical field. Even more distributing that my friend (who is in the financial industry) could lose their license for recommending a security out of term while an individual in the medical industry could essentially express medical opinions fairly freely with no repercussions if no medications are dispensed outside of the practice and/no kickbacks are not detected.

As you said, jerks are everyone. Not exclusive to medicine. No actions would be worth risking either my friend or my present job and maybe the other party happens to be a good provider and a jerk. Usually I find the 2 mutually exclusive, but hopefully they do not let their own ego actually get in the way of doing their job and appropriately diagnosis and treating patients in their role. Regardless, it is not for me to say and I guess it is not a "professionalism inquiry".

Thank you again for giving this inquiry a second shot and taking the time to review and advise. Unfortunately, brevity is not my strong suite...! I will be leaving healthcare, but wish you the best of luck! 🙂

 

[needscaffeine]

are you now dating this friend?
if your "friend" has an issue with it, then s/he needs to bring it up...and you can be supportive.

but frankly, its nun-ya...

Thank you for your response! My friend came to me for advice and perhaps I let emotions get the better of me just because I saw how upset/unnerved my friend was by the medical advice dispensed so freely. Regardless, you are right. The best course of action is to offer support and then leave it alone! 🙂

 

[needscaffeine]

I also really do appreciate the point of you that you presented. Social media really has crumbled the personal/professional banner. Regardless, if an individual freely posts morally objectionable material knowing that said material may be offensive to others (Cecil the Lion comes to mind-though I do stand with you about Hawaiian pizza...haha), then in time they will lose patients/business for their place of employment and will have to deal with those consequences. In this instance the individual is doing this to themselves and is voluntarily making their morally debatable viewpoints public. I imagine then it must become the business of an Administrator because that one individuals' activities could jeopardize the reputation of the institution, which would be detrimental to more than just that one person.

As was pointed out, the individual in this scenario was just a very toxic human being and not a nice person. No one is perfect and perhaps this was a rough period in their life. I cannot say. Planting such awful diagnosis in a layperson's head is/was morally wrong, but I imagine that person has a right to behave immorally in their private life (provided that the actions were not illegal or did not cause physical harm). Moreover, if said patterns of behavior are repeated and unsolicited medical advice offered via public forums, then I imagine in time, this individual's behavior would have to be reprimanded. Regardless, I imagine at this point in time it would be morally wrong to try to make this person's actions into anyone else's business but their own. As sad as it is to say, I imagine there is nothing unprofessional about being a jerk outside of one's place of employment.

Thank you again for offering this viewpoint, and helping me decide to offer comfort and leave it alone. The individuals in your program are very lucky to have you! 🙂

If you're going to do anything, I think the best option is to help the friend you felt was hurt/violated report it.

Let's think about this from my viewpoint. Let's say you @needscaffeine think that SomeDude was somehow inappropriate with a friend. You've been vague enough that it's hard to know what really happened, but for the sake of discussion let's say you heard that SomeDude decided to break up with their bf/gf, but before doing so decided to convince them that they had chronic lyme disease. Because of their medical training, their ex is now 150% certain they have chronic lyme and need some insane bogus treatment for it. Perhaps you've heard, or just suspect, that they did this for "funzies", just to torture them after the breakup. Now the question is, what do you do?

You could report this to me. But then I'd need to hear it from SomeDude's ex. I don't know you, and I'm not going to just take your word for it. So, regardless, the other person is going to get dragged into this. Hence, it's better to simply help them report it to the PD (or the medical board) themselves, and leave yourself out of it as much as possible.

An interesting question is whether this is any of my business or not. Just like the example of the exotic dancer above. Or the Neuro resident who went postal on the Uber driver (although her case may be different, since a law may have been broken). But let's say I find out one of my residents is a stripper. Or is in some old pron movie. Or likes to hunt cute, fuzzy creatures. Or is a Trump supporter. Or, worst, likes Hawaiian pizza. Many people have strong feelings about these issues, and find them unprofessional, or morally objectionable. And public disclosure of these interests might impact my hospital's business. So should these things be "fair game" for my assessments? I don't have a good answer. I'd like to believe there's some sort of firewall between your public/work life and your private life -- but that wall has crumbled mainly due to social media -- In today's social media world, any post can go viral and cause lots of problems.