professionalism

[nanderson]

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I'm a soon to be 4th year med student who's going into pm&r with ultimate goal a musculoskeletal or pain fellowship. Looking to do away elective in pm&r and want to select site that will be a good fit for training goals.

Sent an email asking about the chance to rotate there and also about any residents deciding on fellowships. Same-day response from the PD inquiring which med school I was from. Replied promptly and 2+ weeks of silence go by. On follow-up, response is that PD doesn't spend time with students dealing with such things & that if I come there, I can ask my questions to the other residents and chiefs.

I don't get it. Is this unprofessional of me to ask? Or is there some other way I should be getting this info?

Isn't the PD the most aggessive salesman of his program, looking to talk about it with anyone interested, esp a future customer/applicant? Wouldn't he want as many applicants so that he's in the position to select?

The PD took the time to answer that wouldn't answer. Wouldn't it have been as easy to actually share the info & make a good impression?

I was pretty stunned and repulsed. But, maybe I'm wrong or misunderstanding? Any thoughts?

thanks, [email protected]

 

[axm397]

I'm a soon to be 4th year med student who's going into pm&r with ultimate goal a musculoskeletal or pain fellowship. Looking to do away elective in pm&r and want to select site that will be a good fit for training goals.

Sent an email asking about the chance to rotate there and also about any residents deciding on fellowships. Same-day response from the PD inquiring which med school I was from. Replied promptly and 2+ weeks of silence go by. On follow-up, response is that PD doesn't spend time with students dealing with such things & that if I come there, I can ask my questions to the other residents and chiefs.

I don't get it. Is this unprofessional of me to ask? Or is there some other way I should be getting this info?

Isn't the PD the most aggessive salesman of his program, looking to talk about it with anyone interested, esp a future customer/applicant? Wouldn't he want as many applicants so that he's in the position to select?

The PD took the time to answer that wouldn't answer. Wouldn't it have been as easy to actually share the info & make a good impression?

I was pretty stunned and repulsed. But, maybe I'm wrong or misunderstanding? Any thoughts?

thanks, [email protected]

Many programs have program coordinators and medical student rotation/clerkship directors who handle setting up rotations. So those people should be your primary/first contact.

Different PDs have differnet philosophies. My PD for example, believes very strongly in the integrity of the match and does not believe in being an "aggressive salesman" as you would call it. I have met PDs who are pretty aggressive also. The bottomline is that you probably shouldn't take it personally.

the other point that you will probably learn as you go through the application process - is to not limit yourself to one area of PM&R so rigidly from the beginning before having done rotations. PM&R is a very diverse and rich field and if you go into the field only wanting to do MSK pain, you will miss out on a lot AND may even end up miserable. If pain is all you want to do, you may want to consider other fields as well - like anesthesia.

 

[Gauss]

Many programs have program coordinators and medical student rotation/clerkship directors who handle setting up rotations. So those people should be your primary/first contact.

exactly
you state that your email indicates an interest in a rotation there. I think the PD thought the same thing and was trying to refer you to the rotation director. Best to meet the PD in person and actually be there before you form opinions from emails.

 

[nanderson]

I had emailed the same email at the same time to both coordinator & PD. However, the coordinator didn't contact me until I let the PD know I had done so initially & not gotten a response. I don't take that personally since it's fairly common.

Being an "aggressive salesman" doesn't entail behavior outside the integrity of the match. It does mean PD& coordinator provide information about it and encourage potential applicants spending time there. True different PDs have widely ranging philosophies about how they do this marketing.

Your suggestion "to not limit myself to one area of pm&r so rigidly" is excellent advice. I'm pretty open to my training experiences. Though if I want to do pain I could go into psychiatry or neurology or anesthesia instead of pm&r; miserable to have to defend decision to opt for pm&r or fellowship.

 

[axm397]

I had emailed the same email at the same time to both coordinator & PD. However, the coordinator didn't contact me until I let the PD know I had done so initially & not gotten a response. I don't take that personally since it's fairly common.

Being an "aggressive salesman" doesn't entail behavior outside the integrity of the match. It does mean PD& coordinator provide information about it and encourage potential applicants spending time there. True different PDs have widely ranging philosophies about how they do this marketing.

Your suggestion "to not limit myself to one area of pm&r so rigidly" is excellent advice. I'm pretty open to my training experiences. Though if I want to do pain I could go into psychiatry or neurology or anesthesia instead of pm&r; miserable to have to defend decision to opt for pm&r or fellowship.

Sorry - didn't mean to sound harsh. Obviously, it can be very frustrating to not get responses to your emails - especially since you are trying to set up your 4th year schedule - which starts soon.

Just try to keep an open mind and I hope that your opinion of the program was not tainted by this experience.

I also pm-ed you.

 

[nanderson]

Hey axm397, you took time to consider my questions & I appreciate it. I do try to consider all input & harsh insight doesn't mean innacurate. However, an awareness of one's professional interests is not necessarily a marker of ignorance or rigidity either.

I was unsure if I'd somehow been professionally gauche to inquire about graduates' plans (but FREIDA has a category for grad plans, private practice, academics, further training, etc). Don't have any other resource besides direct to source. It seems sort of ambiguous that the info's avalaible only after I commit my elective time.

I was taken aback at the PD writing that if I rotate there, I can talk to the chiefs about post grad issues as the PD typically doesn't spend the time discussing this with potential students (I'm a potential applicant trying to judge the program's strengths & fit for my training goals). And also at the coordinator writing that she was emailing me (3 + wks later) because she'd gotten the PD's email (what about mine) & that there were no openings till Nov (obviously early April was not early enough).

I'm doing my best to remain open but unless I rotate or interview there, I'm not sure how I'd get a different impression. They don't offer more info! Lesson for future.

 

[Disciple]

If pain is all you want to do, you may want to consider other fields as well - like anesthesia.

I'm not sure I totally agree with that. Anesthesia residents do 1, maybe 2 pain rotations during their residency. The rest of the time is spent in different areas of OR anesthesia (trauma, cardiac, peds, critical care, etc.)

Some residents from progressive PM&R residencies can graduate with almost a complete skill set with regards to outpt pain management (PE, knowledge of spinal pathology/functional restoration, EMG, radiographic interpretation, and basal interventional skills). In many cases the fellowship often serves to provide the desired experience in advanced procedures.

 

[axm397]

I'm not sure I totally agree with that. Anesthesia residents do 1, maybe 2 pain rotations during their residency. The rest of the time is spent in different areas of OR anesthesia (trauma, cardiac, peds, critical care, etc.)

Some residents from progressive PM&R residencies can graduate with almost a complete skill set with regards to outpt pain management (PE, knowledge of spinal pathology/functional restoration, EMG, radiographic interpretation, and basal interventional skills). In many cases the fellowship often serves to provide the desired experience in advanced procedures.

I meant you shouldn't go into PM&R JUST to do pain. I've met people who have done that and they were MISERABLE during their residency training especially during their inpatient months and some of them have switched specialties because they were so unhappy.

I agree that PM&R prepares you VERY well for pain management. There is no question about that. Our whole training is about function and quality of life - and understanding and treating pain is a HUGE part of that.

BUT I also have seen applicants who are very rigidly pain/msk oriented not do so well during the application process because they have ONLY done pain msk rotations and ONLY know pain msk aspects of PM&R - so when they get asked the why PM&R question they are not able to show a comprehensive understanding of the field. That's all.

 

[Disciple]

BUT I also have seen applicants who are very rigidly pain/msk oriented not do so well during the application process because they have ONLY done pain msk rotations and ONLY know pain msk aspects of PM&R - so when they get asked the why PM&R question they are not able to show a comprehensive understanding of the field. That's all.

I usually try to give those candidates the benefit of the doubt, considering Anesthesia, Neurology and Psychiatry have their primary focuses away from pain medicine as well.

Since there currently is no pain residency, just gotta suck it up I guess.