Program Tiers

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DrRobert

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So I've been getting bombarded with people asking how certain programs rank. So why not start a pissing contest? Just kidding. But it might be fun to discuss.

Here is my opinion on the top 2 tiers. Ranking within the tiers is unnecessary. I think that there will be a general consensus on the top 2 tiers combined, but I predict much debate will be had over some programs in regards to their inclusion in the first vs. second tier.

Basically the only criteria I used was: which programs provide the best opportunities for both academic and private practice careers - i.e. which programs produce great clinicians and land good private practice jobs; and also provide research, prestige, etc. to porduce great academic physicians. Location was not factored into my list.

Top Tier (in no particular order):
MGH
UCSF
BWH
JHU
WashU
UMich
UPitt
U of Chicago
Duke
UPenn

Second Tier (in no particular order):
Vandy
Northwestern
UTSW
CCF
CWRU
Stanford
Columbia
Cornell
Mayo
UAB
 
DrRobert said:
So I've been getting bombarded with people asking how certain programs rank. So why not start a pissing contest? Just kidding. But it might be fun to discuss.

Here is my opinion on the top 2 tiers. Ranking within the tiers is unnecessary. I think that there will be a general consensus on the top 2 tiers combined, but I predict much debate will be had over some programs in regards to their inclusion in the first vs. second tier.

Basically the only criteria I used was: which programs provide the best opportunities for both academic and private practice careers - i.e. which programs produce great clinicians and land good private practice jobs; and also provide research, prestige, etc. to porduce great academic physicians. Location was not factored into my list.

Top Tier (in no particular order):
MGH
UCSF
BWH
JHU
WashU
UMich
UPitt
U of Chicago
Duke
UPenn

Second Tier (in no particular order):
Vandy
Northwestern
UTSW
CCF
CWRU
Stanford
Columbia
Cornell
Mayo
UAB


I'd buy that.
 
Other than one or two on each of those lists, I'd agree for the most part. After talking to a lot of PDs on the interview trail, though, I think there are a few programs out west that could be added.
 
While these maybe 'good programs'.... I think there are MANY programs in the midwest that are so called diamonds in the rough.

I think 'tiering' anesthesiology residencies is pointless, much of the reason why med schools arent 'tiered' anymore. It's all subjective. Also, given the fact that an overwhelming majority of graduates from X residency program go into private practice, what does this 'tiering' really amount to? It's just a pissing contest.
 
Yeah, I'd agree with the list for the most part, But I think that Yale needs to be put in there somewhere, as well as U of Florida. Just my .02
 
I'd probably swap Stanford with Pittsburgh, just based on impressions garnered from interviewing at both places last year (which, I suspect, paired with some vague notions of "reputation" and "competitiveness" comprise the sole data upon which this tier-ing is likely based).

I wouldn't put much stock in all this, but hey, who doesn't love a good pissing contest? No one doesn't love a good pissing contest. No one at all.
 
DrRobert said:
So I've been getting bombarded with people asking how certain programs rank. So why not start a pissing contest? Just kidding. But it might be fun to discuss.

Here is my opinion on the top 2 tiers. Ranking within the tiers is unnecessary. I think that there will be a general consensus on the top 2 tiers combined, but I predict much debate will be had over some programs in regards to their inclusion in the first vs. second tier.

Basically the only criteria I used was: which programs provide the best opportunities for both academic and private practice careers - i.e. which programs produce great clinicians and land good private practice jobs; and also provide research, prestige, etc. to porduce great academic physicians. Location was not factored into my list.

Top Tier (in no particular order):
MGH
UCSF
BWH
JHU
WashU
UMich
UPitt
U of Chicago
Duke
UPenn

Second Tier (in no particular order):
Vandy
Northwestern
UTSW
CCF
CWRU
Stanford
Columbia
Cornell
Mayo
UAB


How would you know? I mean what do you base it on? Gut feeling? Personal experience with all the programs? What you've heard about them all? How do you even make the call? Personally I think your list is crap and you're joking to even throw one out. Anyone agreeing with you is equally clueless or worse.

PS - I matched to a program in your second tier, so I'm biased.
 
hey - where's emory 😀 guess i'm training at a 3rd world, err I mean, 3rd tier program 🙁 we're trying to save up enough money to get the gelco rep to teach us how to start IV's 😉
 
I am sure Pitt is a great program, but I don't know how anyone can argue that it is in the "top tier". Above programs like Columbia, UF, BID, Stanford, etc? I mean, it's all subjective to a certain extent but I dunno about that one.


My list, based on what I discovered on the interview trial, on the number, variety/number and complexity of cases, resident satisfaction/feedback, productivity/research, and of course my own biases,

Top of the top: MGH, Hopkins, UCSF

Top: Penn, Duke, Columbia, WashU, Mayo, B and W, BID

Great: Yale, Cleveland Clinic, Stanford, UCLA, UF, Cornell, UCSD, UTSW, Northwestern, Vandy, MCW, OHSU, U of C, Michigan, UNC, Emory, Pitt, others


Everyone's got their own opinion...
 
cchoukal said:
I'd probably swap Stanford with Pittsburgh, just based on impressions garnered from interviewing at both places last year (which, I suspect, paired with some vague notions of "reputation" and "competitiveness" comprise the sole data upon which this tier-ing is likely based).

I wouldn't put much stock in all this, but hey, who doesn't love a good pissing contest? No one doesn't love a good pissing contest. No one at all.


I agree about Pitt. . .awesome program, but somewhat different when it comes to research/academics. . .I'd say it belongs in 2nd tier, according to my personal criteria.

I too think that this ranking issue all depends on what you're looking for in a career or even training itself. I'd probably switch 1/2 of the programs in your 2nd tier to 1st tier. Wash U 1st tier yet Mayo and Columbia as 2nd? C'mon now. . .Mayo and Columbia have some of the most awesome anesthesia-related research opportunities and commitment to producing physician-scientists. I'd say Wash U is comparable, not better (nor worse). The same.

As for Brigham & Women's, it does have a huge name, I know. However with regards to academics--it's weird how absolutely every resident I talked to there (and I talked to quite a few) was going into private practice, even the ones who invested 2 years in CCM and cards fellowships (what a waste of a such a training, IMO). NOBODY was doing research, or even interested. The labs affiliated with the dept were tiny, and only seemed to work on one particular area of pain-related research. Granted you can work in labs at HMS, MGH, or across the river at MIT, however (1) most of the faculty teaching you in the ORs wont be involved in research and (2) the research at the off-site locations wont necessarily be anesthesia-related. Both of those things were very important to me. So, in regards to promise for a career in research/academics, I would put BWH as 2nd tier. For me personally, it started out as top 3 probably cause of the name, but dropped pretty far down after I interviewed there and found other programs I liked better, namely Columbia & WashU 😉 (even liked Mayo better in terms of the clinical training and research opportunities, but it ended up lower cause of location). Still a strong program though that I would have been psyched to train at. Loved the administration. Very supportive, and that is why people go there. . .to have a supportive friendly, yet big name, training (more than a few residents actually told me that was their reason for chosing brigham).

Dont know Stanford, Cornell, Uchicago, Vandy, and several others on this list of DrRobert's, cause i didn't interview at those places, but I can already tell the list is majorly flawed. And that's cause as we've said, you can only make rankings based on your own personal criteria, cause every program has it's strengths, weaknesses, and special focuses.
 
Yeah where's Yale? I mean c'mon the home of Barash. Mucho research opportunities as well, not to mention the great name & rep. Surely it deserves a spot among the top programs.
 
University of Pittsburgh, although might not carry the name weight of Stanford, or BID, or Columbia (although Pitt does have a pretty great reputation) it is a better Anesthesia program for sure. Those other programs beat U. Pittsburgh in name alone, but as far as training, case numbers, research, etc, Pitt is certainly top tier. Pitt has a ridiculous amount of NIH funding, any case you want, regional experience that cant be beat, arguably one of the best critical care department in the nation, etc.
 
I just dont see how you can argue that BID (apart from the Pain Dept.) is a better Anesthesia program than Pitt? Yeah, its a Harvard program, and you can put that big crimson H on your wall, but that only gets you so far. I agree that Mayo should be first tier as well.
 
Hey, everyone's got their own biases...throw down a complete list, that's what forums like this are for 😎
 
ADT said:
University of Pittsburgh, although might not carry the name weight of Stanford, or BID, or Columbia (although Pitt does have a pretty great reputation) it is a better Anesthesia program for sure. Those other programs beat U. Pittsburgh in name alone, but as far as training, case numbers, research, etc, Pitt is certainly top tier. Pitt has a ridiculous amount of NIH funding, any case you want, regional experience that cant be beat, arguably one of the best critical care department in the nation, etc.

I know the pitt program pretty well. I agree that the clinical training is phenomenal, and the regional experience is very strong, which cannot be said even for the some of the "best of the best" group (e.g. Hopkins). I agree the CCM is very strong--Pitt is the birthplace of CCM btw. However, Pitt was second tier for me, because I felt that the faculty teaching in the OR seemed far removed from the research/academic side of the the department. This was reflected in the mentorship as well as in the teaching, not saying it was sub-par in any way, just didn't really meet my needs as far as my career goals go.
 
blocks said:
Hey, everyone's got their own biases...throw down a complete list, that's what forums like this are for 😎

Everybody putting down their own list sans criteria for picking particular programs is just mental masturbation. That's fine for the psychiatry forum... 😉
 
I'd say Blocks is on the money, just switch BID and Stanford. I'm basing this on what I've heard on the trail and voodoo.
 
U OF C is the best program in the country











yes, I matched there so what? 😀
 
How could UAB not be in the top tier? Becuase it is not in Boston, San Fran or New York.

It is second in NIH funding for anesthesia. The residents are making bank, happy, all pass their boards. The facilities are all brand new and awesome. They have the only anesthesia librarian in the country.

I am not biased. I matched at a place that will never be on the top, however, I will make a lot of money and get great training.

Just my two cents.

cubs
 
i have an e-mail from the Pitt PD that makes it pretty clear that their **** don't stank.

i'm not sure where that factors into ranking, but it sure turned me off.
 
Dude, these lists are stupid...
 
cutdacheese said:
Dude, these lists are stupid...

you can say that again. And I'm not saying this cuz my program isnt on the list, cuz it is.

I just think these lists are TOTALLY based on one's own biases and conveniences as chica and some others indicated. And again, MOST anesthesiologists go into private practice anyways (even at these 'top' programs).

LOL....I think we're all too eager ot have pissing contests on this forum
 
ThinkFast007 said:
you can say that again. And I'm not saying this cuz my program isnt on the list, cuz it is.

I just think these lists are TOTALLY based on one's own biases and conveniences as chica and some others indicated. And again, MOST anesthesiologists go into private practice anyways (even at these 'top' programs).

LOL....I think we're all too eager ot have pissing contests on this forum

If you don't like the thread then don't post in it. People are free to post whatever topics they wish.

After all, I've had to endure your asinine posts for the past couple months.
 
DrRobert said:
If you don't like the thread then don't post in it. People are free to post whatever topics they wish.

After all, I've had to endure your asinine posts for the past couple months.
fair enough. i agree threads are there and one has the option of whether to post on it or not.

However, I see this thread going SOUTH real soon. Especially, seeing as though ppl have just matched. ppl's button's are going to be pushed and they'll all feel as though 'their program' should be up there.

but whtever...i can post my opinion. Dont know wht the F your problem is, cuz others have said the EXACT F#(#ing thing. take a chill pill bud.
 
toughlife said:
my wee wee is bigger than all of yours. enough said.
see it already started. :laugh: :laugh:

yo tough...who do you think is more of a bad as s? Al Pacino vs tony soprano vs godfather cats?
 
ThinkFast007 said:
see it already started. :laugh: :laugh:

yo tough...who do you think is more of a bad as s? Al Pacino vs tony soprano vs godfather cats?


Personally, I like Al pacino ( in scarface) cuz he was a bad ass mo fo who didn't take crap from anyone. He also impressed me how he came on a banana boat from cuba and made assloads of $$. He also said "In this country, you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women".

I mean the Sopranos are cool too but Al Pacino in scarface was a one man show...you know.. like anesthesiologists who work alone and just tear that **** up!

I like the pose on my avatar( you know, mean ass look and a fully loaded 9mm in hand) which I personally picture myself taking when walking into a break room full of CRNAs. :laugh:
 
toughlife said:
my wee wee is bigger than all of yours. enough said.

No way man, my wee wee is way bigger than yours....I am going to UMKC....top that chump! 😉
 
toughlife said:
My avatar has a bad ass pose ( you know, mean ass look and a fully loaded 9mm on hand) which I personally picture myself taking when walking into a break room full of CRNAs. :laugh:

yo so tough...so when are you, me, and miamidc going to start up this study and mk this thing public? we're all going to three diff residency programs, perhaps we can mk this a multicenter trial????

Yo tough, when you're in that break room, mk sure you spare those AA's and us residents (ahhaa hopefully by that time) !

ya pacino is a bad as s in scarface no doubt. dude, i have a poster of him when he's in his house holding that friggin HUGE machine gun holding down the fort against those columbian gange towards teh end of the movie. The friggin' thing is priceless!
 
ThinkFast007 said:
yo so tough...so when are you, me, and miamidc going to start up this study and mk this thing public? we're all going to three diff residency programs, perhaps we can mk this a multicenter trial????

Yo tough, when you're in that break room, mk sure you spare those AA's and us residents (ahhaa hopefully by that time) !

ya pacino is a bad as s in scarface no doubt. dude, i have a poster of him when he's in his house holding that friggin HUGE machine gun holding down the fort against those columbian gange towards teh end of the movie. The friggin' thing is priceless!

"Say Hello to my little friend"


Anytime man, anytime. :laugh: :laugh:
 
toughlife said:
my wee wee is bigger than all of yours. enough said.

Peter North is a relative....distant, but blood nonetheless.

Yours may be bigger but I can hit your girlfriend's martini at thirty feet. :meanie:
 
jetproppilot said:
Peter North is a relative....distant, but blood nonetheless.

Yours may be bigger but I can hit your girlfriend's martini at thirty feet. :meanie:


:laugh: :laugh:
 
DrRobert said:
After all, I've had to endure your asinine posts for the past couple months.


Anyone who has followed this board for more than a few months knows that Dr. Robert is the local "Negative Nancy" and has some sarcastic or condescending remark for nearly every thread to which he "contributes". Starting this thread is his typical passive-aggressive M.O. He likes to fan the flames. Ignore.
 
jetproppilot said:
Peter North is a relative....distant, but blood nonetheless.

Yours may be bigger but I can hit your girlfriend's martini at thirty feet. :meanie:

Or her eye :laugh:

I love it how Jet can make jokes like that... how many attendings in any specialty do you know that can say **** like that or let alone even know who Peter North is? You da man Jet.
 
Just food for thought: Two of the original "Top Tier" did not fill in the match this year (Johns Hopkins, UCSF). It would be difficult to argue that UAB is not up there as well. Also, Virginia Mason was not even mentioned, and even though they are somewhat of a niche market, I think they should be on this list. However, they also did not fill in the match
 
advoxxx said:
Anyone who has followed this board for more than a few months knows that Dr. Robert is the local "Negative Nancy" and has some sarcastic or condescending remark for nearly every thread to which he "contributes". Starting this thread is his typical passive-aggressive M.O. He likes to fan the flames. Ignore.


He seems like a helmet ( 👎 ) from reading a few of his posts.
 
The program that you are happy at and provides you with a good base for clinical practice, or academic if you want, is the best program for you. All this best this, top ten that is childish, and often, if not always based on crap.
 
I'm going to throw a shout to my future school, NYU (here on out known as The U (not that place in coral gables Michael Irvin refers to)). I'm excited about where I'm going. I know I'm going to learn alot. I care about tier level about as much as I care about who Christina Aguilera is dating (unless she's single) because I know I'm going to be prepared to get any job I want. Tier, we dont need no stinking tier!
 
Soon2BENT said:
I'm going to throw a shout to my future school, NYU


you're going to love it there. i did an away there and had a great time. the faculty are smart and fun, and the residents seemed to be pretty tight. my only reservation was location, or i would have ranked it higher. i need mountains and wild animals.
 
toughlife said:
I like the pose on my avatar( you know, mean ass look and a fully loaded 9mm in hand) which I personally picture myself taking when walking into a break room full of CRNAs. :laugh:

The gun might intimidate me, yeah. But not the psychopathic doctor wielding it, foaming at the mouth, trembling, eyes glazed from a late night internet CRNA bash binge and whispering obscure Joe Pesci lines from.......wait.......Was that from "Home Alone"?

"Oh, that's just the new resident Toughlife", says the attending anesthesiologist from the back of the break room. "Nevermind him; he went a little crazy in the great SDN War against the Vast CRNA Conspiracy of '05. Some nitecap dude drove him madder'n a one-legged badger."

Everyone lets out a sigh of relief.
 
Cap'nOblivious said:
The gun might intimidate me, yeah. But not the psychopathic doctor wielding it, foaming at the mouth, trembling, eyes glazed from a late night internet CRNA bash binge and whispering obscure Joe Pesci lines from.......wait.......Was that from "Home Alone"?

"Oh, that's just the new resident Toughlife", says the attending anesthesiologist from the back of the break room. "Nevermind him; he went a little crazy in the great SDN War against the Vast CRNA Conspiracy of '05. Some nitecap dude drove him madder'n a one-legged badger."

Everyone lets out a sigh of relief.

Narrative prose.

Such an eloquent way to convey one's thoughts.
 
Cap'nOblivious said:
The gun might intimidate me, yeah. But not the psychopathic doctor wielding it, foaming at the mouth, trembling, eyes glazed from a late night internet CRNA bash binge and whispering obscure Joe Pesci lines from.......wait.......Was that from "Home Alone"?

"Oh, that's just the new resident Toughlife", says the attending anesthesiologist from the back of the break room. "Nevermind him; he went a little crazy in the great SDN War against the Vast CRNA Conspiracy of '05. Some nitecap dude drove him madder'n a one-legged badger."

Everyone lets out a sigh of relief.


Well don't forget that sooner or later I will be the attending. And no, it's not Joe pesci, you genius. Nice try though. :laugh:
 
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