Programs asking to be told if they are your #1

[SaintFrances]

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So I have been told by two different programs, both of which I like very much, to "let them know if I plan on ranking them #1." Now I know that this is bordering on a match violation since they are soliciting information about an applicant's rank list. However, my dilemma is this: I feel obligated to tell both of these programs that they are my #1 just so that I will be taken seriously by them and ranked favorably. I am not seeking to subvert the system or to be dishonest, I just want both of these programs to see me as a serious applicant regardless of whether I plan to rank them as #1 or #2. Furthermore, I don't want to be at a disadvantage to some other applicants that have told the program that they are ranking them as their #1 - especially since some of these people very well may NOT rank the program #1. I just wish people would stop trying to "game the system" and simply rank people and programs how they like them. I wouldn't think this is such a big deal but the PD's mentioned SEVERAL times that they only want people who really want to be there and thus put a lot of stock into you telling them that they are your #1. I think they just want to have an edge on the system by finding out our rank lists prior to making out their rank list.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

This is clearly a match violation on their part.

Tell them they are both your #1. They broke the rules. You telling two programs that they are your #1 is perfectly fine and not a match violation. If one program yells at you afterwards (unlikely), simply tell them you changed your mind before ROL's were due.

This can really only get you in trouble if the two PD's know each other and compare notes. This is VERY unlikely. Unless you're applying to a very competitive field -- I have heard unsubstantiated rumors that PD's might do this when the number of applicants is low. Stupid, since the match works fine without it.

Agree the system would work better if people played by the rules.

 

[soulofmpatel]

Agree the system would work better if people played by the rules.

Ramen brother!

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Ramen brother!

Nice!

For those in the dark, prepare to to be touched by his (or her) noodly appendage.

 

[dragonfly99]

I agree with APD 100%. The programs basically violated the Match and they placed you in an untenable position (i.e. tell them both they are your #1 or likely give up your shot at one of the places). One of my best friends faced this same thing in the GI Match, and basically one of the faculty @our institution told him to just tell them both they are ranked #1...his argument was that yes, it's probably a little unethical, but the PROGRAMS were being unethical in what they were doing, so he (the applicant) shouldn't have too many scruples about doing what he needed to do.

 

[marcello]

I have faced similar issues with programs stressing that at the end of the trail, it would be a good idea to let them know if I plan to rank them "highly" or "#1" which compromises the entire idea behind the match yet I feel if I ignore this option, I may be less favorable.
Do programs communicate? If I tell my top 2 programs they are #1, is there a chance they will discover this?

 

[dragonfly99]

There's always a chance they'll find out, but it's quite unlikely unless the two PD's know each other. I think the chance of someone finding out and getting "mad" at you = << chance of you not matching those places if you DON'T tell them they are #1 or very high on your list.

 

[scared3rdyear]

I was basically told by my home program, "Tell us you want us or you won't be ranked highly." I want to go elsewhere mostly because of my wife's job, and did not feel like playing that game. It's so lame.

 

[peerie]

I was basically told by my home program, "Tell us you want us or you won't be ranked highly." I want to go elsewhere mostly because of my wife's job, and did not feel like playing that game. It's so lame.

My top five choices did not say this to me, altho one or two really liked me and told me they wanted me to come. That was ok with me, they're nice people and I said I wanted to come. The other programs were non-committal, which is as it should be.

But! almost all the other programs I interviewed basically said this to me. Several said it almost word for word, that if I was interested I needed to tell them, otherwise I would not be ranked to match. 😱 This is FM, if that makes any kind of difference.

I found that upsetting, and now as I make my match list I have very mixed feelings about having to go back and talk to programs and let them know that I did like them, etc. I am struggling to come up with the #6-10 because of this dynamic.

 

[IndyXRT]

My top five choices did not say this to me, altho one or two really liked me and told me they wanted me to come. That was ok with me, they're nice people and I said I wanted to come. The other programs were non-committal, which is as it should be.

But! almost all the other programs I interviewed basically said this to me. Several said it almost word for word, that if I was interested I needed to tell them, otherwise I would not be ranked to match. 😱 This is FM, if that makes any kind of difference.

I found that upsetting, and now as I make my match list I have very mixed feelings about having to go back and talk to programs and let them know that I did like them, etc. I am struggling to come up with the #6-10 because of this dynamic.

Programs really shouldn't be doing this. Sure, you like to hear that people liked your program. But by telling you that you have to tell them you like them, they're setting themselves up to be lied to. To the OP: I suggest obliging the programs and telling them both they are your #1. They asked for it (literally).

 

[Gravi69]

match violation

I lied to one of my programs that did this to me

 

[dragonfly99]

peerie,
I doubt you'll go to 6-10 on a family medicine match list, but if you are IMG/FMG then I really shouldn't say b/c I can't judge. I would say don't lose any sleep over these programs that do this. Like I said, they are the weaker programs, and they are doing it to try to scare applicants into ranking them higher, so that they get better people. I think if they flat out do this, you can LIE and then get 8 hours sleep. Or tell them nothing, and lobby a bit at your top 5 so you actually get a program that you want...

It cracks me up that so many programs do this, and then the PD's complain that, "everyone LIES to us!". Well, waaah waaah waaah.
THEY are the ones who are causing this.

 

[3dtp]

Agreed. Match violation, but since when did that matter.

Tell them they are number 1. Everybody likes to be number 1.
In fact, they are number 1 at some particular moment in time, perhaps just long enough to answer the question and no longer. That, of course may change at any second. I guarantee that if some superstud candidate walked in the door the day after you left, that they really wanted, they'd decide that maybe you wouldn't be number 1 the next day.

There is a legal term for this, I think I remember it: in pari delecti
or something of that nature. Literally it means that neither side has clean hands and thus has no basis to bitch. Perhaps law2doc can elaborate.

 

[3dtp]

<>

 

[peerie]

DFly99, Thank you again for your calming words of wisdom. 🙂

I swear I am not normally so OCD about all this stuff, just that the match dynamics are a little stressful. I am a regular US grad, and alot of people say I am a 'natural FP person,' and I really like the field.

It must be a great feeling to be settled in your fellowship and looking towards to the light at the end of the tunnel known as your own cardiology practice! Whew!