Programs asking you what you are ranking them then dropping if you don't say #1?

[DermatoFIGHT]

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I wanted to post this question as this has become an issue recently. Everyone states "the match benefits the applicant".

What I have seen on interviews thus far is:

Are you married? Do you have children and how many? Are you planning on having children/family in residency?
What are you ranking us?
Programs calling applicants and making behind the scene deals.


Aren't these line of questions illegal in this process? What is the point of doing a match then, just let it be a standard job application.

A program my friend interviewed at dropped him from a #1 ranking to rank someone else that said they would rank them #1. They were concerned he wouldn't rank them #1 because he didn't aggressively state it in interview and didn't want to be his #2. They didn't want to drop down the list. I thought this was a bit ridiculous. Has this been common with other applicants. This is in programs that are extremely competitive with only 1 position available.

 

[DermatoFIGHT]

That is all explicitly against the terms of the NRMP and would be considered a match violation.

Thought so. However, this is going on and not a unique situation. How are applicants supposed to handle this? Especially when you are applying to competitive fields. A #1 and a #1 is a match doesn't matter if you are a #2 rank.

All the women interviewing stated we are not having children out of fear of being ranked lower.

 

[Mass Effect]

No offense, but I find it hard to believe everything you just posted. Maybe it happened at one program, but I seriously doubt many programs are going around asking "what do you plan to rank us?" or telling someone they were going to be ranked first, but now won't because they didn't rank the program first or making behind-the-scenes deals. Just sounds made-up to me.

 

[dabeags]

My wife has had a program tell her to let them know in January if she is highly interested as they wanted people who wanted to be there but that is about as far as any program has gone.

As to the married/kids questions she talks about it in every interview. Any place that would rank her low for being married or our plan to have a child in residency is not a program where she would be a good fit so it benefits us to talk about it.

 

[DermatoFIGHT]

I think it's bc the OP is applying to osteopathic derm programs, which are notoriously shady

this is happening to more people I speak to. EM/IM, IM, Surgery, Ortho, Derm, Urology, ENT

"Where are you ranking us? Are you ranking our program #1?" then follow-up, "are you ranking us #1, we all talk and know if you tell others this"

 

[Raryn]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/2015-MPA-Applicants-and-Programs.pdf

6.0 Restrictions on Persuasion
One of the purposes of the Main Residency Match is to allow both applicants and
programs to make selection decisions on a uniform schedule and without coercion or
undue or unwarranted pressure. Both applicants and programs may express their
interest in each other; however, they shall not solicit verbal or written statements
implying a commitment. Applicants shall at all times be free to keep confidential the
names or identities of programs to which they have or may apply. The NRMP
recommends that each program director and applicant read carefully the Match
Communication Code of Conduct for information on acceptable methods of interaction
during the interview and matching processes.
In addition, it is a breach of this Agreement for:
(a) a program to request applicants to reveal ranking preferences; or
(b) an applicant to suggest or inform a program that placement on a rank
order list or acceptance of an offer during SOAP is contingent upon
submission of a verbal or written statement indicating the program’s
preference; or
(c) a program to suggest or inform an applicant that placement on a rank
order list or a SOAP preference list is contingent upon submission of a
verbal or written statement indicating the applicant’s preference; or
(d) a program to require applicants to reveal the names or identities of
programs to which they have or may apply; or
(e) a program and an applicant in the Main Residency Match to make
any verbal or written contract for appointment to a concurrent year
residency or fellowship position prior to the release of the List of Unfilled
Programs.
Only the final preferences of programs and applicants, as expressed on their final
certified rank order lists or by offers extended and accepted through SOAP, will
determine the offering of positions and the placement of applicants through the
Main Residency Match

 

[wanderer]

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/2015-MPA-Applicants-and-Programs.pdf

6.0 Restrictions on Persuasion
One of the purposes of the Main Residency Match is to allow both applicants and
programs to make selection decisions on a uniform schedule and without coercion or
undue or unwarranted pressure. Both applicants and programs may express their
interest in each other; however, they shall not solicit verbal or written statements
implying a commitment. Applicants shall at all times be free to keep confidential the
names or identities of programs to which they have or may apply. The NRMP
recommends that each program director and applicant read carefully the Match
Communication Code of Conduct for information on acceptable methods of interaction
during the interview and matching processes.
In addition, it is a breach of this Agreement for:
(a) a program to request applicants to reveal ranking preferences; or
(b) an applicant to suggest or inform a program that placement on a rank
order list or acceptance of an offer during SOAP is contingent upon
submission of a verbal or written statement indicating the program’s
preference; or
(c) a program to suggest or inform an applicant that placement on a rank
order list or a SOAP preference list is contingent upon submission of a
verbal or written statement indicating the applicant’s preference; or
(d) a program to require applicants to reveal the names or identities of
programs to which they have or may apply; or
(e) a program and an applicant in the Main Residency Match to make
any verbal or written contract for appointment to a concurrent year
residency or fellowship position prior to the release of the List of Unfilled
Programs.
Only the final preferences of programs and applicants, as expressed on their final
certified rank order lists or by offers extended and accepted through SOAP, will
determine the offering of positions and the placement of applicants through the
Main Residency Match

That's nice and all, but it definitely happens, in my experience. Sometimes explicitly, sometimes it's hinted to and open to interpretation....

 

[dabeags]

That's nice and all, but it definitely happens, in my experience. Sometimes explicitly, sometimes it's hinted to and open to interpretation....

No doubt some programs do that sort of thing. Thing is, if they are willing to blatantly break that rule, what other rules are they ok breaking? I'd consider it a big red flag.

Only PD/chair that straight up asked my wife about favorite programs and where else she was interviewing was also a program that was doing shady things with their numbers reporting and training too.

 

[Mass Effect]

I have never heard of this happening so openly and in a variety of fields/programs

Me either, which is why I'm skeptical. If this was as widespread as the OP would have us believed, at the very least, there would be a hell of a lot more anonymous rantings about it here on SDN.

Only PD/chair that straight up asked my wife about favorite programs and where else she was interviewing was also a program that was doing shady things with their numbers reporting and training too.

It isn't against the rules to ask where else she's interviewing. They just can't require an answer.

 

[hallowmann]

No offense, but I find it hard to believe everything you just posted. Maybe it happened at one program, but I seriously doubt many programs are going around asking "what do you plan to rank us?" or telling someone they were going to be ranked first, but now won't because they didn't rank the program first or making behind-the-scenes deals. Just sounds made-up to me.

I know a handful of people (MDs) that have had this experience. I also know some people that were told they were ranked #1 only to not match at that program which they ranked #1 because they thought it was a sure thing. It might not be widespread, but it definitely happens. As long as its not official communications, like if they just verbally said something, there's no real guaranteed recourse.

On top of that, how many residency applicants want to "risk everything" by making a big deal out of it, which is, unfortunately, probably the only way it would change. Medicine, and especially some fields, is a small world, and people prefer applicants without baggage, even if it was justified (or so I've heard).

That's nice and all, but it definitely happens, in my experience. Sometimes explicitly, sometimes it's hinted to and open to interpretation....

Yeah, this is what I've heard as well from many people I trust.

 

[Mass Effect]

I know a handful of people (MDs) that have had this experience. I also know some people that were told they were ranked #1 only to not match at that program which they ranked #1 because they thought it was a sure thing

There's a huge difference in those two things. One is against the rules and puts a program in jeopardy of being dinged by the NRMP and the other is perfectly acceptable.

It might not be widespread, but it definitely happens

For the OP to specifically know of people who experienced this in 7 different specialties, then yes, it does imply it's widespread.

On top of that, how many residency applicants want to "risk everything" by making a big deal out of it, which is, unfortunately, probably the only way it would change. Medicine, and especially some fields, is a small world, and people prefer applicants without baggage, even if it was justified (or so I've heard)

I didn't say that if it was true, people would report it. I said that if this was this widespread, we'd be reading more posts on SDN about it. If an interviewer looks at a candidate funny, it ends up here. If a PD so much as says hi with a flat affect, someone posts about it asking what it means. You really think PDs in at least 7 different specialties are saying to candidates "are you ranking us #1 because if you're not then we won't rank you number 1 either" and no one is talking? Or that they're making behind-the-scene deals and other candidates aren't talking about? Extremely doubtful.

 

[atomi]

FYI, for applicants, if you get asked "what are you ranking us?" there are two correct answers:

1. I'm going to rank you number 1 (even if not true). You need to provide some supporting evidence if you are going with the ballsy claim.

2. I'll wait to make my list until I've finished interviewing everywhere, but you're my favorite so far because... and I highly doubt that will change.

It's a totally illegal question, but you can't just say "that's an illegal question and I refuse to answer it."

You've been asked an illegal question, and if you have to give an illegal answer (a lie), so be it. They started it. If you waiver at all, kiss your spot on the rank list good bye.

It's not like they are going to come and sue you when they rank you number one, you say you're going to rank them number one, and you match somewhere else. I was explicitly told I would be ranked highly by a program, and later found out I wasn't ranked at all. Could I sue them? No. Protect yourself. It's your future career.

 

[atomi]

As to the married/kids questions she talks about it in every interview. Any place that would rank her low for being married or our plan to have a child in residency is not a program where she would be a good fit so it benefits us to talk about it.

This is true if you are applying for a non-competitive specialty. If you are applying for anything moderately competitive, it means they can get away with asking more illegal questions and dinging people for illegal soft factors. If you are applying for a competitive specialty, you need a strategic plan for dealing with the fact that you are married with kids puts you at a disadvantage to any non-local programs (i.e., the majority of the ones you are applying to).

Protect your future and don't be naive to think that if they don't want you because you are married with kids, then it wasn't a good match anyway.

 

[dabeags]

Protect your future and don't be naive to think that if they don't want you because you are married with kids, then it wasn't a good match anyway.

To each their own, to me it seems like a gross mismatch of core values.

 

[wanderer]

There's a huge difference in those two things. One is against the rules and puts a program in jeopardy of being dinged by the NRMP and the other is perfectly acceptable.



For the OP to specifically know of people who experienced this in 7 different specialties, then yes, it does imply it's widespread.



I didn't say that if it was true, people would report it. I said that if this was this widespread, we'd be reading more posts on SDN about it. If an interviewer looks at a candidate funny, it ends up here. If a PD so much as says hi with a flat affect, someone posts about it asking what it means. You really think PDs in at least 7 different specialties are saying to candidates "are you ranking us #1 because if you're not then we won't rank you number 1 either" and no one is talking? Or that they're making behind-the-scene deals and other candidates aren't talking about? Extremely doubtful.

I can't speak for other specialties but I know it happens occasionally in the specialty I'm applying to. That specialty is not well-represented on this forum so I don't expect anyone to start complaining on this site.

 

[operaman]

I haven't had this happen yet on the trail, but maybe that's because it's still early in our interview season. These have mostly been top programs so maybe they assume everyone will rank them highly anyhow.

I usually volunteer the family/kids plans and have never felt it was an issue. All of them have responded by talking about all their current residents who did the same thing, how great their city/program is for families, etc. In fact, I've had more than one chair/pd say to call them personally if I was thinking of ranking them highly but concerned about career stuff for my wife so they could make calls and help us out. I honestly can't think of one that was anything but over the top supportive.

Finding a place I fit with people who share my values is huge for me.

 

[hallowmann]

There's a huge difference in those two things. One is against the rules and puts a program in jeopardy of being dinged by the NRMP and the other is perfectly acceptable.

For the OP to specifically know of people who experienced this in 7 different specialties, then yes, it does imply it's widespread....

Yeah, I know they're different. I was just bringing up both that I have heard.

I have no idea if OP is right. I was just saying what I've heard in maybe 2 or 3 different specialties (and to be fair most were in the same 3-4 state region). I don't know if its widespread or not.

...I didn't say that if it was true, people would report it. I said that if this was this widespread, we'd be reading more posts on SDN about it. If an interviewer looks at a candidate funny, it ends up here. If a PD so much as says hi with a flat affect, someone posts about it asking what it means. You really think PDs in at least 7 different specialties are saying to candidates "are you ranking us #1 because if you're not then we won't rank you number 1 either" and no one is talking? Or that they're making behind-the-scene deals and other candidates aren't talking about? Extremely doubtful.

Again, I have no idea if OP is right. Like I said, it happens, but it might not be widespread. I was simply offering a reason why most people wouldn't hear about it.

Also, SDN is a pretty biased and small sample when compared to every med student or resident in the US. Its certainly possible for something to be happening, but never come on to here. That said, I agree that if it was widespread in every specialty we'd hear more about it on here.

 

[Mass Effect]

Yeah, I know they're different. I was just bringing up both that I have heard

That's fine. I was just pointing out that the two have nothing to do with one another. One is openly known to happen because it's acceptable. The other, I still maintain, hardly ever happens.

I have no idea if OP is right. I was just saying what I've heard in maybe 2 or 3 different specialties (and to be fair most were in the same 3-4 state region). I don't know if its widespread or not

IMO, a lot of people exaggerate their experiences. Just my opinion.

Also, SDN is a pretty biased and small sample when compared to every med student or resident in the US. Its certainly possible for something to be happening, but never come on to here. That said, I agree that if it was widespread in every specialty we'd hear more about it on here.

That's my point. If this is happening in at least 7 specialties, as the OP claims, then why isn't it on here? It's way too hard to believe that it isn't widespread, but the OP just coincidentally knows 7 different people applying to 7 different specialties where this happened. SDN may be biased, but it's biased toward the neurotic. This is why you'll find umpteen threads with posters saying they heard from PDs or that programs were ranking them number 1, etc. Yet threads about PDs giving candidates an ultimatum on ranking are pretty scarce. There's a reason for that.

 

[docontherocks32]

One of my IM PD's did give me an earful when I answered his explicit question on whether I'd rank them number one or not. I said that it was the beginning of the interview season, and I couldn't say for sure. So does happen, but has only happened once to me. A few did ask if I'd be ranking them high but that's not the same thing.

 

[DermatoFIGHT]

I have never heard of this happening so openly and in a variety of fields/programs

Any suggestions how an applicant should handle these situations, it makes it very awkward? One I think when you speak to more people it unearths more of this behavior.

That's fine. I was just pointing out that the two have nothing to do with one another. One is openly known to happen because it's acceptable. The other, I still maintain, hardly ever happens.



IMO, a lot of people exaggerate their experiences. Just my opinion.



That's my point. If this is happening in at least 7 specialties, as the OP claims, then why isn't it on here? It's way too hard to believe that it isn't widespread, but the OP just coincidentally knows 7 different people applying to 7 different specialties where this happened. SDN may be biased, but it's biased toward the neurotic. This is why you'll find umpteen threads with posters saying they heard from PDs or that programs were ranking them number 1, etc. Yet threads about PDs giving candidates an ultimatum on ranking are pretty scarce. There's a reason for that.

Hardly ever happens? I was asked 3 times blatantly. Another applicant asked and asked again when the program contacted him afterwards. Friend's asked multiple times and just told everyone "you are my number 1". Others said "I will let the match decide", they were then pressured again with what their ranking is. If you say this hardly ever happens, maybe it is the specialties we looking into that are very competitive. All I can say is lots of people I have spoken with have been in this position.

 

[Mass Effect]

Then report them. You can report them anonymously and if it happens as much as you say, they will never know who it was who reported them since they apparently do it to so many and so often.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hardly ever happens? I was asked 3 times blatantly. Another applicant asked and asked again when the program contacted him afterwards. Friend's asked multiple times and just told everyone "you are my number 1". Others said "I will let the match decide", they were then pressured again with what their ranking is. If you say this hardly ever happens, maybe it is the specialties we looking into that are very competitive. All I can say is lots of people I have spoken with have been in this position.

Again, you are applying for the Osteopathic match right?

Its not against their rules. They can ask those questions.

The majority of residency programs in the US are ACGME approved/allopathic that use the NRMP where asking such questions is a violation. It is not fair to continue without clarification.

 

[Law2Doc]

...
It isn't against the rules to ask where else she's interviewing. They just can't require an answer.

Agree that this discussion requires OP to state if we are talking osteo or allo as the rules differ.

Also agree that in neither system is it against the rules to ask where else someone is looking, at least in some General sense. It actually helpful for the process because (1) it tells you whether you need to sell the geographic area to the applicant, or whether they are sold and largely applying in the region, and (2) let's programs pitch why their program is "better" than some of the others the applicant may be looking at. Every program has a selling point, but programs don't want to emphasize things other places maybe do even better if they can differentiate themselves some other way.

 

[j4pac]

I wouldn't rank a program that asked me where I plan on ranking them. It SCREAMS malignancy. It is a gross violation of the match...and those are the types of programs which lose accreditation.

I am very open about my wife and children on my application...so it is fair game. If a PD sees it as a distraction, which it is, and holds it against me...I am happy they do. I would rather not go to that program.

I have been asked about which regions I applied...I think that it is a fair question. The interviewer wants to make enquire why a Florida boy would be applying to the Midwest/northeast, etc.

 

[Mass Effect]

Asking where they are looking in a "general sense" - e.g. asking "so are you mostly staying on the west coast, or are you looking all over?" might be okay.

Asking about what other specific programs they are looking at is definitely against the NRMP.

But your rationale is exactly why programs try to do it, even though it always makes the applicant uncomfortable.

Actually, the way the NRMP Match rules are worded, technically, they can ask what other specific programs people are looking at. They just can't require the candidate to answer. Semantics, I know, but they need to fix the language.

 

[anonperson]

this is happening to more people I speak to. EM/IM, IM, Surgery, Ortho, Derm, Urology, ENT

"Where are you ranking us? Are you ranking our program #1?" then follow-up, "are you ranking us #1, we all talk and know if you tell others this"

Is this with the osteopathic match?

I know it happens in the allopathic match process but I don't think its to this degree though. When I interviewed for residency, the closest anyone came to that was mentioning "Let us know if you are interested, that helps us when it comes to creating our list."

Also for fellowship, a similar thing.

Of course, I wasn't too great of a candidate so they probably didn't care if I ranked them highly to begin with.

 

[evilbooyaa]

Again, you are applying for the Osteopathic match right?

Its not against their rules. They can ask those questions.

The majority of residency programs in the US are ACGME approved/allopathic that use the NRMP where asking such questions is a violation. It is not fair to continue without clarification.

Really, DO students applying to AOA residencies don't have any of the ACGME protections? Will that change in 2016 when the residencies integrate?

 

[Winged Scapula]

Really, DO students applying to AOA residencies don't have any of the ACGME protections?

Why would they? They are under the guise of the accreditation body for osteopathic residencies; ACGME doesn't have any say in that. Osteopathic residencies, Derm in particular, are notorious for doing shady things during the match; the OP has mentioned that herself but seems to avoid noting that she is applying for osteopathic positions which confuses the issue here (and which is why I mentioned that she needs to clarify what she is talking about because everyone is going on about ACGME rules).

I expect that when the merger is completed there will be a standardized set of rules for the match which will include the current ACGME regulations, making the former osteopathic residencies come into line.

 

[DrBowtie]

Really, DO students applying to AOA residencies don't have any of the ACGME protections? Will that change in 2016 when the residencies integrate?

Not until there is one NRMP match.

 

[DermatoFIGHT]

Mainly osteopathic, some allopathic danced on the subject but were not as up front.