Programs with good training in eating disorders

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applicantwithquestion

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I'm sitting down to make my rank list and was wondering if anyone had an idea which of these programs offers good exposure to eating disorders? This is something I should probably have asked about during interviews but honestly, it didn't even occur to me that some programs would not have a lot of exposure until I asked about weaknesses at an interview and they mentioned lack of exposure to eating disorders. It's something I'm very interested in, both the inpatient and outpatient aspect.

The programs are: Case Western, University of Cincinnati, Ohio State, University of Michigan, University of Wisconsin, University of Virginia, University of Iowa, Tufts.

Thanks!
 
I'm sitting down to make my rank list and was wondering if anyone had an idea which of these programs offers good exposure to eating disorders? This is something I should probably have asked about during interviews but honestly, it didn't even occur to me that some programs would not have a lot of exposure until I asked about weaknesses at an interview and they mentioned lack of exposure to eating disorders. It's something I'm very interested in, both the inpatient and outpatient aspect.

The programs are: Case Western, University of Cincinnati, Ohio State, University of Michigan, University of Wisconsin, University of Virginia, University of Iowa, Tufts.

Thanks!

I interviewed at Michigan and they have an eating disorders IOP that was mentioned!
 
Whoops didn't realize that you asked about those specific programs. Deleted!
 
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I'm sitting down to make my rank list and was wondering if anyone had an idea which of these programs offers good exposure to eating disorders? This is something I should probably have asked about during interviews but honestly, it didn't even occur to me that some programs would not have a lot of exposure until I asked about weaknesses at an interview and they mentioned lack of exposure to eating disorders. It's something I'm very interested in, both the inpatient and outpatient aspect.

The programs are: Case Western, University of Cincinnati, Ohio State, University of Michigan, University of Wisconsin, University of Virginia, University of Iowa, Tufts.

Thanks!

Any program that has a strong brick wall and protected time to smash your head into it repeatedly will provide good training for treating eating disorders.

But seriously, of the programs you mention, I believe University of Iowa has a very strong ED component.
 
Of that list, I would honestly chose the best academic program with the best clinical training. Most programs have elective time, and you can probably do a month at a reputable treatment center during PGY4

So, your top 3 are going to be 1) Michigan, 2a) Cincinnati, 2b) Iowa
 
Any program that has a strong brick wall and protected time to smash your head into it repeatedly will provide good training for treating eating disorders.

Thanks, you just made me snort coffee out my nose. :laugh:

--------

All the best with finding the training program you desire as well, OP. Eating Disorders are not an easy thing to treat, and we could certainly do with more people who have chosen to specialise in the field. 🙂
 
Of that list, I would honestly chose the best academic program with the best clinical training. Most programs have elective time, and you can probably do a month at a reputable treatment center during PGY4

So, your top 3 are going to be 1) Michigan, 2a) Cincinnati, 2b) Iowa

Thanks for the input! Those were 3 out of my top 4 to begin with anyway. Is there a reason you wouldn't say Case Western fits the bill?
 
I'm a few years away from my interview days, so it may have changed, but back when I was interviewing I was told by their chief resident that eating disorder exposure was in fact one of the specific weaknesses of Univ of WI.
 
I'm a few years away from my interview days, so it may have changed, but back when I was interviewing I was told by their chief resident that eating disorder exposure was in fact one of the specific weaknesses of Univ of WI.
Every program I've ever met would reply "eating disorders" when asked "Are there any specific areas the program is weak in?"
:laugh:
Goes back to @Salpingo's astute reply above.
 
Every program I've ever met would reply "eating disorders" when asked "Are there any specific areas the program is weak in?"
:laugh:
Goes back to @Salpingo's astute reply above.

We have a mandatory rotation in it at Wash U, and I'm glad I had the exposure to see the pathology (and actually reading the research- particularly the neuroscience- that Walt Kaye at UCSD and others have done is interesting), but yes, the brick wall feeling definitely arose multiple times!


It takes a unique passion to do that kind of work...
 
Every program I've ever met would reply "eating disorders" when asked "Are there any specific areas the program is weak in?"
:laugh:
Goes back to @Salpingo's astute reply above.

Definitely an astute reply from Salpingo, I give full credit to anyone in the healthcare profession who's truly willing to subject themselves to that particular level of "oh look, I'm beating my head against a brick wall again". :whistle:

And that's without even getting into the complexities of treating the more chronic cases (now that brings back some memories...)

"Hello, I've had an eating disorder for 24 years. Would you like to take me on as a patient?"

1z39ehe.jpg


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

-----------------------------

Sorry OP, didn't mean to hijack your thread. I have asked around a couple of eating disorder support groups to see if anyone was aware of any combined treatment and teaching/research programs in the areas you're looking (sometimes patients are aware of what different hospital treatment programs are affiliated with what University/training program, and how good the programs might be) -- haven't received any replies back as yet though.
 
What is the role of psychiatry in eating disorders? I thought that was more or less talk/behavioral therapy plus close monitoring by internal medicine.

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What is the role of psychiatry in eating disorders? I thought that was more or less talk/behavioral therapy plus close monitoring by internal medicine.

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile
What do think the role of psychiatry is in general? That should answer your question, unless you think psychiatry is limited to giving out psych meds.
Even if we take the most reductionist view of psychiatry, some limited effect of SSRIs has been shown for bulimia, so psych meds do have a role in at least some eating disorders for now. And if psychiatry is not involved in eating disorders, how would new psychiatric treatment approaches be developed?
 
One outpatient program I saw had the psychiatrist run one of the groups. One inpatient program I saw had the psychiatrist in charge of everything, helping to coordinate internal medicine (when it went beyond what the psychiatrist wanted to handle), nutrition, and psychology.

Plus lots of comorbidities with anxiety and depression that need to be managed along with the eating disorder.
 
What is the role of psychiatry in eating disorders? I thought that was more or less talk/behavioral therapy plus close monitoring by internal medicine.
unfortunately, psychiatry in the US has largely abandoned eating disorders. The reasons for this are many:
1. there is a hierarchy of disorders in psychiatry, with "schizophrenia", autism, bipolar disorder and so on assuming special place, and eating disorders on the lowest rung
2. eating disorder patients are challenging to work with, have poor insight, and are help-rejecting
3. eating disorder patients are frightening to work with; anorexia carries the highest mortality of any psychiatric disorder
4. psychiatrists receive little to no training in eating disorder; in fact most residents receive none
5. eating disorders are seen as self-induced and the person's "fault"; even psychiatrists who should know better may harbor such biases
6. the treatments for eating disorders are not that great
7. eating disorders are often seen as less "biological" whatever the f that mean...; though there is likely a strong biological component and heritability to anorexia nervosa; certainly no less so than addictions which have successfully branded themselves as being diseases of brain (though they are not diseases at all)
8. eating disorders are seen as "western disorders"; in fact anorexia nervosa exists in some form in most cultures, including those not exposed to western culture
9. eating disorders have not the same parity as other mental disorders; in fact some insurances plans continue to exclude eating disorders
10. eating disorders are seen as disorders of affluence; yet they can be found across social strata
11. eating disorders are seen as disorders of modernity; anorexia nervosa has been described across history, it is an hysterical syndrome known in antiquity, though first described by william gull in its recent form

The most common role for psychiatrists in eating disorder treatment teams is relegated to drug pusher, such is the nature of contemporary psychiatry. Comorbidity is the rule, not the exception; and so treatment of depression, anxiety, PTSD, bipolar disorder etc will be managed by the psychiatrist. These comorbidities are often see as "low-hanging fruit" in the management of these complex patients. SSRIs can be effective in the treatment of bulimia, naltrexone in compulsive eating, and olanzapine may have a limited role in anorexia nervosa. topiramate has also been used in bulimia but i am no fan of topamax.

The second most common role for psychiatrists is leader of the multidisciplinary team (or at least medical director, if a psychologist is the leader). Because psychiatrists are physicians specializing in psychological medicine, they are best placed to integrate both medical and psychological aspects of care and to be the liaison with other medical doctors. They will manage risk (both physical risk and suicide risk), identify and treat other comorbidities, and ensure patients receive the appropriate care at the appropriate time (therapy is not going to be of much use in a patient with a BMI of 12 for example, food is the medicine they need first).

However there is no reason that psychiatrists could not take more of a role in psychological aspects of treatment. In fact, many of the treatments for eating disorders have been developed by psychiatrists. Christopher Fairburn is a psychiatrist at Oxford University who has pioneered the development of cognitive-behavioral treatments for eating disorders including bulimia, and binge-eating disorder. Janet Treasure is a psychiatrist involved in the development of maudsley based approach (a family therapy), as well as the use of motivational enhancement therapy for anorexia nervosa. Ulrike Schmidt is yet another psychiatrist who has developed psychological treatments for eating disorders, including self-help and online treatments to expand access to care. cognitive analytic therapy is yet another psychotherapy developed by a psychiatrist (anthony ryle) that has been used in treatment of anorexia.

oh and btw, as to your intimation that psychiatry has no role in (behavior) therapy: behavior therapy (systematic desensitization) was developed by Joseph Wolpe, a psychiatrist. Cognitive therapy was developed by Tim Beck, a psychiatrist. Mentalization-Based Treatment was developed by Anthony Bateman, a psychiatrist. Structural Family Therapy was developed Salvador Minuchin, a psychiatrist. Systemic Therapy was developed by Mara Palazzoli, a psychiatrist. Psychodrama was developed by Jacob Moreno, a psychiatrist. Interpersonal therapy was developed by Gerald Klerman, a psychiatrist (and a neo-Kraepelinian one at that). In fact, psychoanalysis is the only one of the major branches of psychotherapy (not counting third wave as its own branch) that was not developed by a psychiatrist. Freud was not a psychiatrist, but as Jung put it, "the neurologist who brought psychology to psychiatry."
 
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unfortunately, psychiatry in the US has largely abandoned eating disorders. The reasons for this are many:
1. there is a hierarchy of disorders in psychiatry, with "schizophrenia", autism, bipolar disorder and so on assuming special place, and eating disorders on the lowest rung
2. eating disorder patients are challenging to work with, have poor insight, and are help-rejecting
3. eating disorder patients are frightening to work with; anorexia carries the highest mortality of any psychiatric disorder
4. psychiatrists receive little to no training in eating disorder; in fact most residents receive none
5. eating disorders are seen as self-induced and the person's "fault"; even psychiatrists who should know better may harbor such biases
6. the treatments for eating disorders are not that great
7. eating disorders are often seen as less "biological" whatever the f that mean...; though there is likely a strong biological component and heritability to anorexia nervosa; certainly no less so than addictions which have successfully branded themselves as being diseases of brain (though they are not diseases at all)
8. eating disorders are seen as "western disorders"; in fact anorexia nervosa exists in some form in most cultures, including those not exposed to western culture
9. eating disorders have not the same parity as other mental disorders; in fact some insurances plans continue to exclude eating disorders
10. eating disorders are seen as disorders of affluence; yet they can be found across social strata
11. eating disorders are seen as disorders of modernity; anorexia nervosa has been described across history, it is an hysterical syndrome known in antiquity, though first described by william gull in its recent form

The most common role for psychiatrists in eating disorder treatment teams is relegated to drug pusher, such is the nature of contemporary psychiatry. Comorbidity is the rule, not the exception; and so treatment of depression, anxiety, PTSD, bipolar disorder etc will be managed by the psychiatrist. These comorbidities are often see as "low-hanging fruit" in the management of these complex patients. SSRIs can be effective in the treatment of bulimia, naltrexone in compulsive eating, and olanzapine may have a limited role in anorexia nervosa. topiramate has also been used in bulimia but i am no fan of topamax.

The second most common role for psychiatrists is leader of the multidisciplinary team (or at least medical director, if a psychologist is the leader). Because psychiatrists are physicians specializing in psychological medicine, they are best placed to integrate both medical and psychological aspects of care and to be the liaison with other medical doctors. They will manage risk (both physical risk and suicide risk), identify and treat other comorbidities, and ensure patients receive the appropriate care at the appropriate time (therapy is not going to be of much use in a patient with a BMI of 12 for example, food is the medicine they need first).

However there is no reason that psychiatrists could not take more of a role in psychological aspects of treatment. In fact, many of the treatments for eating disorders have been developed by psychiatrists. Christopher Fairburn is a psychiatrist at Oxford University who has pioneered the development of cognitive-behavioral treatments for eating disorders including bulimia, and binge-eating disorder. Janet Treasure is a psychiatrist involved in the development of maudsley based approach (a family therapy), as well as the use of motivational enhancement therapy for anorexia nervosa. Ulrike Schmidt is yet another psychiatrist who has developed psychological treatments for eating disorders, including self-help and online treatments to expand access to care. cognitive analytic therapy is yet another psychotherapy developed by a psychiatrist (anthony ryle) that has been used in treatment of anorexia.

oh and btw, as to your intimation that psychiatry has no role in (behavior) therapy: behavior therapy (systematic desensitization) was developed by Joseph Wolpe, a psychiatrist. Cognitive therapy was developed by Tim Beck, a psychiatrist. Mentalization-Based Treatment was developed by Anthony Bateman, a psychiatrist. Structural Family Therapy was developed Salvador Minuchin, a psychiatrist. Systemic Therapy was developed by Mara Palazzoli, a psychiatrist. Psychodrama was developed by Jacob Moreno, a psychiatrist. Interpersonal therapy was developed by Gerald Klerman, a psychiatrist (and a neo-Kraepelinian one at that). In fact, psychoanalysis is the only one of the major branches of psychotherapy (not counting third wave as its own branch) that was not developed by a psychiatrist. Freud was not a psychiatrist, but as Jung put it, "the neurologist who brought psychology to psychiatry."
Thank you for that information, very insightful. I'm curious to know why you think about topiramate and naltrexone in both the treatment of eating disorders as well as obesity in general.
 
Every program I've ever met would reply "eating disorders" when asked "Are there any specific areas the program is weak in?"
:laugh:
Goes back to @Salpingo's astute reply above.

Listen to this. It's good advice. American psychiatry has long since abandoned eating disorders. While there are some good jobs in this area if you stick it out, you have to be dedicated and focused over many years to get those jobs. You have to keep up your internal medicine skills AND your psychotherapy skills despite this combination being totally against the grain nowadays.

Most residency programs have little to offer in this area and if they claim to, they're lying. Don't go into psychiatry because you're interested in eating disorders, and don't choose a program based on it either. (I did this and spent years regretting my specialty choice. I also lost interest in eating disorders along the way. I'd probably have maintained that interest if I'd gone into peds. Pediatricians have a solution to eating disorders - they feed the patients against their will. Psych has no solution.)

Honestly, if you are interested in eating disorders, and if peds isn't your thing, you should think of going into internal medicine, and then adolescent medicine. You'll have tons of job options through either IM, peds or psych. You won't get therapy training through IM but you'll get everything else you need. You can learn therapy through a psychoanalytic fellowship later on your own. Heck, you could go into surgery and do the same thing. You'll know how to put in NG tubes and surgical feeding tubes. You can do bariatric surgery. You might have more of an impact that way.
 
Listen to this. It's good advice. American psychiatry has long since abandoned eating disorders. While there are some good jobs in this area if you stick it out, you have to be dedicated and focused over many years to get those jobs. You have to keep up your internal medicine skills AND your psychotherapy skills despite this combination being totally against the grain nowadays.

Most residency programs have little to offer in this area and if they claim to, they're lying. Don't go into psychiatry because you're interested in eating disorders, and don't choose a program based on it either. (I did this and spent years regretting my specialty choice. I also lost interest in eating disorders along the way. I'd probably have maintained that interest if I'd gone into peds. Pediatricians have a solution to eating disorders - they feed the patients against their will. Psych has no solution.)

Honestly, if you are interested in eating disorders, and if peds isn't your thing, you should think of going into internal medicine, and then adolescent medicine. You'll have tons of job options through either IM, peds or psych. You won't get therapy training through IM but you'll get everything else you need. You can learn therapy through a psychoanalytic fellowship later on your own. Heck, you could go into surgery and do the same thing. You'll know how to put in NG tubes and surgical feeding tubes. You can do bariatric surgery. You might have more of an impact that way.

I'm curious about the part I've bolded in your post. You don't have the capacity to section and force feed adult patients in the US? Just that I know plenty of eating disordered patients in Europe, the UK, and Australia who have been placed under detention orders and force fed if they were deemed to be unable to reason for themselves and in imminent danger of dying. I don't think it's an ideal solution, obviously its best to try and start treatment early before it gets to that stage (but that's often easier said than done), but when it comes down to it it does save lives.

Other than that I agree with the cautions that you, and others, have given the OP. I think all too often people choose eating disorders as a specialty thinking they're going to be the ones to really make a difference, and hey maybe they will, but I also think far too often people have a rather naive vision of what its like to work with a group of patients that are utterly determined to go against one of our most basic biological instincts with next to no insight or care for the consequences. We are an exceedingly difficult patient group to work with, even I will concede that -- we're manipulative, we're often desperate enough to do things that would turn most people's stomachs, we throw tantrums, we can be frustratingly rigid in our thinking, annoyingly ritualistic in our behaviours, fight treatment providers at every turn, etc, etc.

I would certainly never discourage someone from wanting to specialise in the treatment of eating disorders, because I think we do need more people who are trained in proper, and the most up to date evidence based treatment protocols, but at the same time I think they have to know what they're getting themselves into as well.
 
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