Pros and Cons of Carib Schools

[theBruceWayne]

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I've heard a plethora of negative things having to do with Caribbean med schools. I've also heard a plethora of positives. Just wanted to post this to collect the SD collectives opinion on this. I'll be applying to med school hopefully in two years. Are Caribbean schools a viable option?

 

[kavorca]

Breaking new ground

 

[miss chievous]

I've heard a plethora of negative things having to do with Caribbean med schools. I've also heard a plethora of positives. Just wanted to post this to collect the SD collectives opinion on this. I'll be applying to med school hopefully in two years. Are Caribbean schools a viable option?

Pros - You'll be going for your MD
Cons - You probably won't end up actually getting an MD

 

[Dral]

Pro: nice weather
Cons: everything else.

Hmm, hurricanes? Ok. Mostly nice weather.

 

[Doctor Strange]

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

I'm interested to know what these plethora of positives are.

 

[Radon XP]

Pro:

Last chance if you're desperate

Con:

Everything else

 

[487806]

I've heard a plethora of negative things having to do with Caribbean med schools. I've also heard a plethora of positives. Just wanted to post this to collect the SD collectives opinion on this. I'll be applying to med school hopefully in two years. Are Caribbean schools a viable option?

You're on a roll. Keep up the strong work

 

[theBruceWayne]

You're on a roll. Keep up the strong work

I love you Agent B

 

[mystifire]

The only pro is you can tell your family, friends, and potential sexual partners "I go to med school".

 

[inycepoo]

The only pro is you can tell your family, friends, and potential sexual partners "I go to med school".

Dat sex doe

 

[Toss]

I've heard a plethora of negative things having to do with Caribbean med schools. I've also heard a plethora of positives. Just wanted to post this to collect the SD collectives opinion on this. I'll be applying to med school hopefully in two years. Are Caribbean schools a viable option?

You disgrace your namesake with all of your posts.

That said...

Pros: You get to attend a med school.. You will also be on an island.
Cons: You may not end up not finishing school. If you do end up getting your MD, your diploma may ultimately end up as a piece of expensive kindling.

 

[Helixkam]

Why is everyone on this forum such a damn snob. I've known many many good working doctors in good residencies from the carribean throughout my time at working at several hospitals.

 

[Beargryllz]

Why is everyone on this forum such a damn snob. I've known many many good working doctors in good residencies from the carribean throughout my time at working at several hospitals.

We have to act super tough, super competitive, and look down on everyone who isn't on the fast track to an IR fellowship

This is just part of the game

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

Pros: You get to live in a tropical island paradise, you can "study" on the beach, carib schools will take anyone with a pulse and the less "prestigious" ones will sometimes even waive the pulse requirement, you'll be in med school which may not have been possible otherwise, and the Caribbean is the only place on Earth you can get a combined MD/BSN degree to become a physician-nurse.

Cons: It stops being a paradise during hurricane season, you'll never get any studying done when you're on a tropical island, carib schools actively try to fail their students, your chances of becoming a doctor are extremely slim, and an MD/BSN degree is stupid.

Why is everyone on this forum such a damn snob. I've known many many good working doctors in good residencies from the carribean throughout my time at working at several hospitals.

Look at the statistics for carib schools when it comes to graduation rates, USMLE pass rates, and residency placements. It's not pretty. Now look at the numbers which show US residencies haven't increased for well over a decade and the numbers which show that the amount of US med graduates has been increasing and are now starting to come close to matching the number of residencies. Now look at the numbers which show a bunch of new US med schools opening up which means more US graduates such that all residency spots in the US can now be filled by US graduates. Get it yet?

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Why is everyone on this forum such a damn snob. I've known many many good working doctors in good residencies from the carribean throughout my time at working at several hospitals.

That door used to be open before DO schools started multiplying like rabbits. Now the Carib door is closing.

 

[SN12357]

Why is everyone on this forum such a damn snob. I've known many many good working doctors in good residencies from the carribean throughout my time at working at several hospitals.

It's not about whether the Caribbean schools can, theoretically, produce good doctors. Clearly they can. It's about the fact that the number of medical students in the US is increasing while the number of residencies stagnates, which is rapidly turning the Caribbean schools from a viable possibility into a horrible bet.

 

[Toss]

Why is everyone on this forum such a damn snob. I've known many many good working doctors in good residencies from the carribean throughout my time at working at several hospitals.

If I were a gambling man, and I had to choose between anecdotal evidence and statistics, well...

 

[Helixkam]

Outside of the match process itself and including it St.Georges has a pretty high match rate over 85% for graduating seniors. The data you pick may be skewed as well.

 

[Toss]

Outside of the match process itself and including it St.Georges has a pretty high match rate over 85% for graduating seniors. The data you pick may be skewed as well.

I got my data straight from NRMP (National Resident Matching Program). Not sure how you can get more impartial than that.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2013.pdf

 

[gyngyn]

Outside of the match process itself and including it St.Georges has a pretty high match rate over 85% for graduating seniors. The data you pick may be skewed as well.

Times have changed.

 

[SilverCat]

I want to know how you read the match list posted for 2013 on SGU's website. Is this one class, or everyone who has ever graduated? It's pretty misleading; when I was sitting with no acceptances after two years of applying it looked quite decent to me, enough to start an application. There are a couple ortho, general surg, optho, vascular surgery, and derm matches mixed up in there, and they're quite competitive. So a few people do make it through.

Granted, this will changed after four years.

 

[sliceofbread136]

There are no pros who go to a caribbean schools, but I'm guessing there are plenty of cons and ex-cons

 

[SixStringPsych]

While I don't want to vouch for Caribbean schools at all here...I think people over emphasize the fact that many Caribbean students don't even finish school. The sample size is a bunch of students who clearly couldn't make it into a US school, so clearly they are deficient somewhere (low GPA, low MCAT). Most likely it's not the school's fault, but their own fault. I think any strong, motivated student can make it through a Caribbean school and do well on the USMLE.

Residency placement is another story.

 

[BioBeaver]

Pro: You'll get your MD

Con: There's no point in it because you can't get a residency..

 

[Strudel19]

Pros: Weather
Cons: 😳

 

[deleted458807]

I don't go to a Caribbean school so I don't know the first hand experience, but from what I have heard:

Pros:
1- You actually get an MD (if you didn't get accepted elsewhere, MD is better than no MD I think we can all agree)

2- Some schools (i.e. Ross U) have a curriculum where you spend 18 months in the island and then go to NYC for clinicals.

3- Some schools (i.e. RU) are not research based, which means the instructors are only teaching and tutoring (yeah you actually get tutored by the teacher). I only know this from RU, because they came to talk to my school, and they pay the teachers so that they are ALWAYS available to tutor you. I think you can actually grasp the concepts better if you have a tutor available 24/7.

4- Location: well, one you are on an island, which pretty much means beach, sun, coconuts, all the good stuff. This also means there is nothing to do but study.

5- I think RU mentioned having partnerships with several hospitals that reserve a space for a RU student for their residency

6- Lower MCAT is accepted. Rolling admissions.

Cons:
1- The stigma that just because you went to the Caribbean it means that you didn't get accepted elsewhere. (IMHO I think your USMLE has more weight than the school you went to)

2- That since your school is not research based (chances are) you wont have as much opportunities to do research.

3- Well, there isn't anything to do on an island (unless you are in like Costa Rica or Puerto Rico) except school, and flying home is probably very expensive.

4- It costs the same as a US school

5- I think its easier for you to get a residency in the hospital your school is affiliated to, i.e. BU has an peds-anesthesia residency that is affiliated with Harvard too. I don't think going to BU would hurt your chances of getting in.


Just my 2c

 

[KnuxNole]

Clinicals are also a huge con. Just because you do them in the US does NOT mean the quality will be any good. Especially in run down hospitals or in places where the residents are too busy drawing blood to teach you. I've heard of a IM rotation where they round for 3 hours and go home, without carrying patients or held accountable for reading/shelfs. The second half of med school is an area that isn't touched upon when the topic of Caribbean schools gets brought up. Sure, they boast about how well they do on Step 1....but that's because Pathology and Physiology are the same whether you are in NY, LA, or Aruba. The clinical years are critical, and where you do them matters. There are some hospitals where they do rotations alongside US students, which is good. Unfortunately, given the high class sizes, only a small fractions gets exposed to these places.

 

[TeddyBoomBoom]

I just don't get it. Carib schools WERE a viable opportunity for past students to work towards an md and practice in the us. I know some of these docs personally. They are great docs. However, those times have largely passed. These days, and increasingly in the future, there will simply be little positive outcome for the majority of Carib students. No?

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

I don't go to a Caribbean school so I don't know the first hand experience, but from what I have heard:

Pros:
1- You actually get an MD (if you didn't get accepted elsewhere, MD is better than no MD I think we can all agree)

2- Some schools (i.e. Ross U) have a curriculum where you spend 18 months in the island and then go to NYC for clinicals.

3- Some schools (i.e. RU) are not research based, which means the instructors are only teaching and tutoring (yeah you actually get tutored by the teacher). I only know this from RU, because they came to talk to my school, and they pay the teachers so that they are ALWAYS available to tutor you. I think you can actually grasp the concepts better if you have a tutor available 24/7.

4- Location: well, one you are on an island, which pretty much means beach, sun, coconuts, all the good stuff. This also means there is nothing to do but study.

5- I think RU mentioned having partnerships with several hospitals that reserve a space for a RU student for their residency

6- Lower MCAT is accepted. Rolling admissions.

Cons:
1- The stigma that just because you went to the Caribbean it means that you didn't get accepted elsewhere. (IMHO I think your USMLE has more weight than the school you went to)

2- That since your school is not research based (chances are) you wont have as much opportunities to do research.

3- Well, there isn't anything to do on an island (unless you are in like Costa Rica or Puerto Rico) except school, and flying home is probably very expensive.

4- It costs the same as a US school

5- I think its easier for you to get a residency in the hospital your school is affiliated to, i.e. BU has an peds-anesthesia residency that is affiliated with Harvard too. I don't think going to BU would hurt your chances of getting in.


Just my 2c

You listed 5 cons but completely missed the elephant in the room. You have a serious chance of spending 250k+ to get an MD that is completely worthless if you don't get a residency (or a dead end residency slot). In that case, I certainly think getting no MD would have been better.

Also, those pros are pretty weak. Some of them shouldn't be considered pros at all since they are basically only things the schools do to counter the massive cons of going to the carib. I also wouldn't trust anything that a Ross spokesman says about the school.

 

[inycepoo]

An MD diploma is as useful as the used toilet paper in my bathroom wastebasket if you can't secure a residency spot and subsequently get licensed to practice.

So no, an MD degree is not always better than no MD degree.

 

[Toss]

I just don't get it. Carib schools WERE a viable opportunity for past students to work towards an md and practice in the us. I know some of these docs personally. They are great docs. However, those times have largely passed. These days, and increasingly in the future, there will simply be little positive outcome for the majority of Carib students. No?

I think your post succinctly sums up what the majority of us are trying to tell the OP, except that there are certain posters who seem to be stuck in the past.

 

[deleted550985]

An MD diploma is as useful as the used toilet paper in my bathroom wastebasket if you can't secure a residency spot and subsequently get licensed to practice.

So no, an MD degree is not always better than no MD degree.

Especially if you're comparing a useless MD degree that leaves you $300,000 in debt to nothing. Which is the situation many people considering Carribean med school are in.

Sometimes people just need to swallow their pride and realize that med school isn't for them.

 

[Law2Doc]

Outside of the match process itself and including it St.Georges has a pretty high match rate over 85% for graduating seniors. The data you pick may be skewed as well.

First, things published on an offshore website aren't really bound by a lot of the "truth in advertising" laws of the US. If your data is coming from the schools website you have to be skeptical. Second, attrition is nominal at US schools, and high at offshore schools -- this has to be in your analysis or you arent comparing apples nd oranges. Third, there are innumerable ways to play with the statistics. For instance, If after attrition, failed boards etc, you have 1000 students, and due to a variety of internal hurdles, only 300 can apply for the match after 4 years, and 290 of those match, is it still a good match rate (290/300) or is it really less than 30% (290/1000+). Fourth, not every "match" is a useful one. Landing a dead end preliminary position that's going to require you to apply for the match again really shouldn't count when trying to select a program, and offshore programs have a lot more of these. Fifth, odds of landing anything outside if community spot in noncompetitive fields is very low. Sixth, you can't escape the data above that odds are getting longer every year for offshore students.

The only "pro" I can see is that if you really truly have dug yourself a big hole such that you can't get into a US school even with a few years of grade rehabilitation, this is a last ditch hail Mary pass to still become a doctor. If you are grasping for a last ditch chance, go for it. But don't try to pretend odds are somehow actually good because the program lauds themselves on their own unaudited website.

 

[deleted458807]

Especially if you're comparing a useless MD degree that leaves you $300,000 in debt to nothing. Which is the situation many people considering Carribean med school are in.

Sometimes people just need to swallow their pride and realize that med school isn't for them.

(Here is the stigma I was telling you about🙄 )

IMO, yes, I would rather go to a US school, but I don't think going to the Caribbean is worthless. I know an ophthalmologist who went to Puerto Rico. Sure, ophtho is very competitive, but I would rather go to the Caribbean and apply for a non competitive residency and do what I love than give up and become a Biology teacher or PA or whatever wasn't my original plan. BTW most people in Caribbean schools match, so you should get your facts straight about it being useless.

BTW I don't go to a Caribbean med school so Im not biased, I just try to look at it "sans the stigma"

In the end it's a personal choice, I think

 

[McRunner]

(Here is the stigma I was telling you about🙄 )

IMO, yes, I would rather go to a US school, but I don't think going to the Caribbean is worthless. I know an ophthalmologist who went to Puerto Rico. Sure, ophtho is very competitive, but I would rather go to the Caribbean and apply for a non competitive residency and do what I love than give up and become a Biology teacher or PA or whatever wasn't my original plan. BTW most people in Caribbean schools match, so you should get your facts straight about it being useless.

BTW I don't go to a Caribbean med school so Im not biased, I just try to look at it "sans the stigma"

In the end it's a personal choice, I think

I know of two very successful vascular surgeons out of Caribbean schools... Granted Even they said it was easier for them to get competitive residency spots 10-20 years ago!

 

[circulus vitios]

Why is everyone on this forum such a damn snob. I've known many many good working doctors in good residencies from the carribean throughout my time at working at several hospitals.

I think the Carribean was once an acceptable option, but that's quickly coming to an end with the impending 2015 residency crunch. If you don't know what this is, the projected number of residency slots for IMG and FMG students is approaching 0 as the total number of residency slots have not increased at a rate that matches the class sizes of US medical school.

 

[circulus vitios]

IMO, yes, I would rather go to a US school, but I don't think going to the Caribbean is worthless. I know an ophthalmologist who went to Puerto Rico.

Puerto Rican medical schools are LCME accredited and are therefore considered equal with US medical schools. Caribbean schools are not LCME accredited.

 

[inycepoo]

(Here is the stigma I was telling you about🙄 )

IMO, yes, I would rather go to a US school, but I don't think going to the Caribbean is worthless. I know an ophthalmologist who went to Puerto Rico. Sure, ophtho is very competitive, but I would rather go to the Caribbean and apply for a non competitive residency and do what I love than give up and become a Biology teacher or PA or whatever wasn't my original plan. BTW most people in Caribbean schools match, so you should get your facts straight about it being useless.

BTW I don't go to a Caribbean med school so Im not biased, I just try to look at it "sans the stigma"

In the end it's a personal choice, I think

Do you read at all before replying?

The attrition rate at Carib is outrageously high because they actively try to fail their students. Uncle was at Ross 8 years ago and half the class didn't make it to clinical. They get letter grades there, and there are a whole bunch of other grading practices you won't find in the States. Of the half that graduated, sure, most matched. But this was 8 years ago, before DO schools popped up everywhere and led to less and less residency spots, making it tougher than ever before for Carib students to match. It doesn't matter if we're looking at this with stigma or not; residency programs stigmatize Carib schools, and that's all that matters in analyzing whether Carib is worth it. Refer to my toilet paper comment before.

Will schools advertise on their website this attrition rate? Sure... 🙄

So no, most Carib students do not match nowadays. You should get your facts straight.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

The people that stubbornly defend the Carib are the same people that can't face reality when it smacks them in the face in the first place. If you can't get into a US MD, then a US DO is your next bet. The US DO schools are multiplying like rabbits and they are a pretty sure bet you will be a practicing physician somewhere in the country. US DOs will fill up the vast majority of spots that don't go to US MDs. If you can't get into a US DO, then medicine is probably not for you.

 

[Radon XP]

Puerto Rican medical schools are LCME accredited and are therefore considered equal with US medical schools. Caribbean schools are not LCME accredited.

One thing I've always wondered, why do residencies even consider people who go to non LCME accredited schools? I'm not saying there haven't been good physicians that have gone Carib; just trying to understand the accreditation system.

 

[chillaxbro]

Con: The Caribbean is dangerous as ****

 

[gyngyn]

One thing I've always wondered, why do residencies even consider people who go to non LCME accredited schools? I'm not saying there haven't been good physicians that have gone Carib; just trying to understand the accreditation system.

The Carribean grads are usually native North Americans so there is no culture shock. If you are a PD in an undesirable location or a less competitive specialty (or both!) you will rank your candidates as you see them. Even when the unaccredited grads are ranked last, if the candidates above them rank other programs higher, the Caribbean grad gets a spot with you.

 

[Radon XP]

The Carribean grads are usually native North Americans so there is no culture shock. If you are a PD in an undesirable location or a less competitive specialty (or both!) you will rank your candidates as you see them. Even when the unaccredited grads are ranked last, if the candidates above them rank other programs higher, the Caribbean grad gets a spot with you.

I get that, but aren't there any rules against accepting a degree from a non-accredited institution?

I mean, why can't I just make up my own medical school, then, and apply for residency positions?

 

[gyngyn]

I get that, but aren't there any rules against accepting a degree from a non-accredited institution?

I mean, why can't I just make up my own medical school, then, and apply for residency positions?

The rules require IMG's (including US citizens) to demonstrate english proficiency and provide USMLE scores, and transcripts. That's about it.

You can, in fact, start your own school if you like!

 

[OCDOCDOCD]

An MD diploma is as useful as the used toilet paper in my bathroom wastebasket if you can't secure a residency spot and subsequently get licensed to practice.

So no, an MD degree is not always better than no MD degree.

Actually the toilet paper is more useful because at least you have enough of it to wipe your ass, it's softer, and the toilet paper only cost you maybe $5 for a good brand whereas the carib MD cost you $300,000 in non-dischargable debt.

And this is the real con of the carribbean. In the very likely event you don't match, or even fail to graduate, you're stuck with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and have nothing to show for it. So if you find yourself in a position with that much debt and job prospects no better (if not worse) than when you graduated undergrad, what are you going to do to pay off the debt? $300k is serious business, and because it's loan debt you'll never get rid of it without paying it off. Since your MD will be useless without completing residency, that leaves you with your bachelors degree which, lets face it, is probably a basic science degree which gets you a job as a lab tech at best. Now consider that your loan payments are likely to be about $2500 per month (assuming 6.8% interest on $250k paid over 10 years), which means you need to be making $35k a year after taxes just to effectively make $0 per year, and you're screwed.

The Caribbean is not worth the risk. You are very likely to be better off just working at McDonald's than trying to get an MD in the Caribbean. The only people who should attend the Caribbean are the kids who can't possibly get into a US MD/DO school and who would rather kill themselves than not become a doctor because that's probably going to be your best option after you fail to get a residency match.

 

[KnuxNole]

I also never understood Caribbean schools marketing the "Guess what guys, you can study on the BEACH!!!". You can do that at US schools too 😛

 

[inycepoo]

Actually the toilet paper is more useful because at least you have enough of it to wipe your ass, it's softer, and the toilet paper only cost you maybe $5 for a good brand whereas the carib MD cost you $300,000 in non-dischargable debt.

Dude, I meant the used ones in the trash. I ain't gonna use those again lol.

 

[Radon XP]

Dude, I meant the used ones in the trash. I ain't gonna use those again lol.

Still more useful than the Carib MD 👍

 

[RocknRhoLim]

What bothers me about the match process is that US medical students might get screwed over in the upcoming years if residency slots do not increase and FMGs/IMGs get those spots because they have higher Step 1 scores. I already know that the match favors US med students but I don't know if this will remain the same. I really wish the idiots in Washington and state governments would do more to improve health care instead of advocating for midlevel providers who are a cheap and inadequate substitute for actual physicians.