psychiatry salary

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artsydoc

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Psychiatry/neuro/behavioral science are the only subjects I've really loved since starting medical school however I'm being strongly advised to avoid it based on earning potential. If people would be kind enough to revisit this topic I'd really appreciate it-I'm sorry it's so mercenary and redundant. (Primary person who's telling me stay away is my father, an ENT who also did plastics and worked 80+ hours a week for decades so I think he probably has a very different idea of a good income than I do).

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In very general terms, a psychiatrist's salary ranges from about $150,000 a year to $250,000 a year for an employed 7am to 5pm job with minimal call, depending on where you are practicing and what exactly what you are doing. The midwest and southwest (except Texas) seem to pay the most. Rural areas sometimes offer higher salaries. For some reason (no income tax? saturation in the big cities?) Texas employed psychiatrist salaries are on the lower end. Private practice you can do well, and you can make a lot of money, but you will probably work hours closer to what your dad works to do that.

Child and Adolescent Psychiatry doesn't seem to pay much more at all from what I'm seeing, as I'm exploring the market right now as a fellow. Don't do it unless you really like kids and don't mind working with their crazy, entitled parents.

tl;dr - Plan on minimum $150,000 gross for 40-50 hours per week employed position
 
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Plan on minimum $150,000 gross for 40-50 hours per week employed position

Definite minimum, that. True you'll never make highly-driven-ENT dollars, but you'll earn a comfortable living, own a home in a nice neighborhood, and keep your kids fed for sure.
Folks around here are making 200-250K to start.
 
You shouldn't have too much trouble finding a job paying 200k to start, with 230-240k comfortably a few years out, and mid-career. Depending on your business acumen, 300k shouldn't be unreasonable for PP, depending on the area. At least that's what I hope? 😀

It's not a bade life. If you wanna make ENT dollars, just work 80 hours a week, like they do, and you'll have 350-400k.
 
Thanks for laughing about it instead of reaming me out! I have a horrible fear of the government doubling the interest rates on my loans every year for the rest of my natural life while my family starves. Also am an older student and former starving artist who has done the underemployed and uninsured thing already.
 
Thanks for laughing about it instead of reaming me out! I have a horrible fear of the government doubling the interest rates on my loans every year for the rest of my natural life while my family starves. Also am an older student and former starving artist who has done the underemployed and uninsured thing already.

If you were formerly an artist, I'd think your dad would be thrilled that you somehow made it to medical school. Anything you end up specializing in would be a huge step up compared to where you were before. However, if you are an older student, then hopefully you've gotten to the point where you aren't still looking for parental approval to make decisions.

Although I have heard of/known some primary-care docs (in family and internal medicine) having to close their private practice, these sort of things happen pretty rarely.
 
I don't think vistaril and whopper could exist in the same universe.

I think you may be correct. I found the following photo after much hard work and at great danger. Whopper's on the left, Vistaril's on the right. What's the consensus?

spock-vs-evil-spock.jpg
 
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I know I don't really post here much but I have to say that I sort of liked vistaril.. I know he was very negative, would exaggerate in all of his comments, and would otherwise be a complete downer but his comments would often spark interesting discussions. Obviously, I never really agreed with most anything he said but still... Was his account put on hold because people just got fed up with him?
 
I know I don't really post here much but I have to say that I sort of liked vistaril.. I know he was very negative, would exaggerate in all of his comments, and would otherwise be a complete downer but his comments would often spark interesting discussions.
But those "discussions" were always more in the vein of a trash talk show than a panel. A lot of grandstanding, chest beating, and put downs. And he only fessed up that he was lying about his background when enough people were pointing out how they had a hard time reconciling his experiences with who he said he was. Newer users might actually take him for the real article, which is bad juju.

What I love about this forum is that it is a community of people that share information and perspectives and have spirited debates in a collegial setting. I would hate to see the Psych forum keep heading down the path of some of the other forums on SDN and much of the other forums on the Internet which is the serial "look at me! look at me!" postings that consists of over-inflating ones own self-worth by exaggerating accomplishments, putting down the work or perspective of others, and general trash talking to sort through before you can actually have some decent conversations and get good info.
Obviously, I never really agreed with most anything he said but still... Was his account put on hold because people just got fed up with him?
I doubt that. Even if folks are annoyed with you, that's not a violation of TOS in and of itself. I have no clue what he did, but keep in mind that Psychiatry is but one of the many forums he frequented on SDN.
 
I feel like missing out what did vistiril lie about
 
Recent offers my graduated friends just took:

Los Angeles. Telemed to Cali prisons. 32h/wk. No call. 6wks vacation. 240k/yr.

VA (veterans not Virginia). 40h/wk. 220k/yr. q14 home call. Fed benefits.

Vegas. Adult. 40h/wk. minimal call. 200k/yr.

No one I know took a job for less than 200k.
 
He said he was from a 1) top 25 medical school, at a b) top 10 program in the c) Northeast, and a d) PGY4. None of these four things were true.

My 6th sense was right after all... hah! I tried telling you guys.

Well heck, Vistaril was the reason I left these boards. Now that he's gone, I'll be more than glad to contribute again.
 
Hay Everybody,

I understand how money is the number one metric for new graduates, but you really need to listen to your significant others on this. Moving to the highest pay will take you to places that can be 110 degrees right now, or worse, -20.

There are a lot of other factors. Just live below your spending power and you will be much happier being around support systems, be they yours or partners. Go where you want. So what if you get less square footage. Don't need the BMW, or Landrover out of the gates and all will go better. You will move up after your entrance into home ownership.

If you don't agree, you will be moving soon and starting over. There is no better revenge than getting into a retirement early and staying with it. Expensive locations just mean delayed gratification. Find a job you like. Most of you are not that old, and you will get where you want to be if you don't give up on your ability to delay gratification like you are already doing.

Try and go from the middle of nowhere and get to where you want to be and you will find out that you made a mistake. If you like rural, you are already better off, but if not, don't do it. Values in real estate are going up right now, but for all of the historical problems, go where you want and stay there a long time and you will be fine.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Maybe we're the same person? Just kidding.

I never mentioned this. This is not to blame Vistaril at all. By the time I left the board, Vistaril was acting up a little here and there. Now there is a fine line between asking tough and thought provoking questions and just stirring hysteria. IMHO, at least at that time, I think Vistaril was getting close to the line and didn't think he crossed the line. I know some disagreed with me. I was a moderator at that time.

But I did think Vistaril being around did require a vigilant moderator because other people were expressing to me they were bugged. I couldn't fill that role with the new job I took. I don't know how he was doing on the forum after I left because I didn't keep tabs.
 
Ok answering the question...

Psychiatry in one respect doesn't make less money. Several fields of medicine have higher salaries but they also expect more hours. In effect you're making the same amount per hour vs other fields, just that you get to sleep at night and work 40 hour weeks--if that's what you want. You could always choose to work say as many hours as a surgeon and probably make as much.

That said, this field, for the overwhelming majority, will not be on the order of certain fields of medicine, e.g. dermatology, ophthalmology,and those fields where you can usually bill mega bucks for just a few hours or less of work.

In a congested market (and these are rare in the field), expect to make less than 200K for 40 hours of work. I'd say expect around 175K.

In an underserved area, play your cards right, you could be making >250K.

With my current employer, I make the standard psychiatry clinical professor's salary, and I'm not going to be afraid to say it because it's standard for the dept, about 190K. With the benefits value it comes to about $230K. I don't have to pay malpractice and the benefits are darned good. E.g. they match retirement contributions, a flex-spending card, etc. If you bring more money into the department, they have a system where your pay goes up on top of the usual salary. Now this is where I'm going to intentionally keep mum, but I am in that exemplary area because I do Suboxone practice though the university. The university scoops up a heck of a lot of the money there, but I still make some money off of it. The profit rate I'm accomplishing seems to be more with me vs some other doctors. E.g. Most docs do 4 or less patients tops at PES in 4 hours, I can do about 6-8 if it's busy enough. I was told by the outpatient director that I'm in the top 1-2 people bringing in money via the outpatient clinic. By the time my paycheck comes in, I get a separate additional check for bringing in the extra money.

That and I get to do some darned interesting forensic cases with top people in the field acting as mentors where I can bill for several hundred dollars an hour. I just worked on a murder case and wrapped it up a few days ago. What a relief. Paid well too, and I'm working with colleagues that wouldn't tolerate one of us selling out. The opinion I gave on the murder case actually went against what the hiring lawyer wanted and had I sold out, I would've made much more. I'll be working on a psychological autopsy next.

Overall, I do make much more than most psychiatrists make, but a drawback is that I know I could make more if I worked on my own, and I know this for a fact because I was doing that before.

This is purely in terms of money. You have to consider several other factors. At the university, I get to work with top people, and two doctors rated in the top 100 have worked side-by-side with me to the degree where they're telling me about their fantasy football team or their little weekend band gig. Another is a phone call away and he's always been friendly and open to communicating with me especially if I asked him about an odd case. I got to have lunch with Paul Keck with him asking me to work for him. I needed that because I had to gauge myself and wanted to see who the Wizards of Oz were behind the curtain, and if I never took the job, I would always have wondered what if for the rest of my life.

When I was making more, before the university, I didn't respect my colleagues, was aghast with some of their practices (e.g. many of them giving out mega benzos, adderall, what have you), and kept thinking I wanted more of a challenge.
 
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The selling point in psych is the fact that you can work 1 day a week and employers will be like "ok here's 50k". Alternatively you can easily work for yourself and keep the profits.

Putting things into perspective, I just bought a 60 inch flatscreen tv that cost less than what I earn by working 1 day at work. In contrast, the movers I hired would have to save up for many months to buy that TV working 5 days a week. I paid my movers each a $60 tip and they were ecstatic. 1 guy was making rare celebratory plans to take his family out to the Macaroni Grill...

Not sure why everyone is set on trying to break 200k. Anybody can break 200k in medicine. But not everybody in medicine can work a couple days a week and enjoy other aspects of life.

Having the option to work less and still have money for a roof over your head is priceless. It is a luxury that very few people have. Who knows you might get sick. You might want to spend more time with your parents before they leave this world. You might want to cherish every moment with your infant child.

First take care of yourself, family, friends and people. Money comes second. Things come last.
 
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But those "discussions" were always more in the vein of a trash talk show than a panel. A lot of grandstanding, chest beating, and put downs. And he only fessed up that he was lying about his background when enough people were pointing out how they had a hard time reconciling his experiences with who he said he was. Newer users might actually take him for the real article, which is bad juju.

What I love about this forum is that it is a community of people that share information and perspectives and have spirited debates in a collegial setting. I would hate to see the Psych forum keep heading down the path of some of the other forums on SDN and much of the other forums on the Internet which is the serial "look at me! look at me!" postings that consists of over-inflating ones own self-worth by exaggerating accomplishments, putting down the work or perspective of others, and general trash talking to sort through before you can actually have some decent conversations and get good info.

That's very true when you put it into perspective as such. We certainly don't need this forum to cultivate the same environment that permeates, say, the Anesthesia forum because of a select few commenters..
 
Hillbilly 1: "Anesthesia forum? Heh, that there place always chattin about money I reckon."

Hillbilly 2: "They have some strange posters over yonder there in them parts."
 
I think these posts happen more often here because psych is a very unique field, and med students are often nervous about their decision to enter our world. I know I was, despite how much I loved it.

The unique work, combined with a reputation for low salaries makes people nervous. But, they hear that maybe the salaries aren't actually THAT low, so they come looking for validation. I get that.

All of the above posts about valuing your life and your time are 100% correct. Psych hourly rates are just fine. Generally equal to most other fields' hourly rates. If you love the work, don't worry about the money.

Also, all of the jobs I posted are in major, desirable metro areas. Los Angeles, Tampa, and Las Vegas. Great jobs and salaries, far from rural. The money, if that's what you care about is out there.

I'm more interested in WHY psychiatrists work less hours/week than most other fields?
 
I'm more interested in WHY psychiatrists work less hours/week than most other fields?

2-fold in my opinion.

1. Psychiatrists in general have a more laid back personality. Rarely do i see psychiatrists training for marathons, sky diving, etc. Not that we cant do those things, but we generally enjoy basic aspects of life like family, friends, books, and other hobbies and make these things a higher priority.

2. Low overhead. A surgeon in a group private practice has to work thousands of hours in a year to break even with overhead. There are nurses, secretaries, equipment, etc that all cost money. After awhile, the hours are close to pure profit - they want to maximize those hours. We can work 1 day/week and be profitable as all I need is a room, 2 chairs, and a computer.
 
He said he was from a 1) top 25 medical school, at a b) top 10 program in the c) Northeast, and a d) PGY4. None of these four things were true.

Although lying about this may be against the TOS, it's a forgivable offenses in my book, as I'm sure many would agree.

But since I LOVE gossip, what was the reality?
 
1. Psychiatrists in general have a more laid back personality. Rarely do i see psychiatrists training for marathons, sky diving, etc. Not that we cant do those things, but we generally enjoy basic aspects of life like family, friends, books, and other hobbies and make these things a higher priority.
I'm not sure I'd describe it as "laid back," exactly. Might be regional, but where I'm at the psych folks seem to be more into working out more than a lot of counterparts in medicine (granted, yoga more than krav maga or whatnot) and lots of runners.

But I do think that psychiatry as a field attracts those more interested in work-life balance. In part because the field allows for it and in part because folks interested in balancing work and life in a healthy way might also be interested in mental health as a field.
 
I'm not sure I'd describe it as "laid back," exactly. Might be regional, but where I'm at the psych folks seem to be more into working out more than a lot of counterparts in medicine (granted, yoga more than krav maga or whatnot) and lots of runners.

But I do think that psychiatry as a field attracts those more interested in work-life balance. In part because the field allows for it and in part because folks interested in balancing work and life in a healthy way might also be interested in mental health as a field.

I think you may have unintentionally demonstrated TP's point by referencing yoga as working out.
 
Counterpoint
 

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Maybe we're the same person? Just kidding.

I never mentioned this. This is not to blame Vistaril at all. By the time I left the board, Vistaril was acting up a little here and there. Now there is a fine line between asking tough and thought provoking questions and just stirring hysteria. IMHO, at least at that time, I think Vistaril was getting close to the line and didn't think he crossed the line. I know some disagreed with me. I was a moderator at that time.

But I did think Vistaril being around did require a vigilant moderator because other people were expressing to me they were bugged. I couldn't fill that role with the new job I took. I don't know how he was doing on the forum after I left because I didn't keep tabs.

sheeesh guys I haven't gone anywhere....but I'm truly flattered by all the discussion🙂

The important thing to keep in mind regarding salaries is that every field tends to compare apples and oranges. Meaning picking a salary that one *can* make in their field fairly easily(but doesn't represent an average) and then comparing it to averages they say in other fields from googling.....

I mean heck there is a family medicine hospitalist position 30 minutes from my house that pays $135/hr on a 48 hr week(averaged over the month). Multiply that times a full year and you get 325k. Someone on the family medicine forums could easily say "we get 325k and you guys get 177k"(or whatever he saw for psych in some googled average).....but that's silly because it's not a fair comparison.

I will say this- most salary averages, even many for psychiatry, seem low from what one could make. There isn't a full time non-academic internal medicine hospitalitist in this area who doesn't make at least 230k for example, and 300k with a little extra work is fairly easy. Additionally, salary surveys for procedure based subspecialists are ridiculously low from what i hear in reality. Someone in private practice in interventional cardiology in this area can easily make 7 figures for example(even with the recent cuts), and yet you see average salaries listed of 450k or so. It doesn't seem like researchers and academic types would bring the average down that low.

The fairest thing to do is probably compile an average of all salary surveys. Doing that shows that psychiatry makes amongst the lowest averages alongside pediatrics and family medicine.

But as others have said, how much money do you need? I went into psychiatry knowing that the people who pick procedure based fields will make far far more than me. That's a choice I made understanding everything, so I'm not bitter.
 
sheeesh guys I haven't gone anywhere....but I'm truly flattered by all the discussion🙂

The important thing to keep in mind regarding salaries is that every field tends to compare apples and oranges. Meaning picking a salary that one *can* make in their field fairly easily(but doesn't represent an average) and then comparing it to averages they say in other fields from googling.....

I mean heck there is a family medicine hospitalist position 30 minutes from my house that pays $135/hr on a 48 hr week(averaged over the month). Multiply that times a full year and you get 325k. Someone on the family medicine forums could easily say "we get 325k and you guys get 177k"(or whatever he saw for psych in some googled average).....but that's silly because it's not a fair comparison.

I will say this- most salary averages, even many for psychiatry, seem low from what one could make. There isn't a full time non-academic internal medicine hospitalitist in this area who doesn't make at least 230k for example, and 300k with a little extra work is fairly easy. Additionally, salary surveys for procedure based subspecialists are ridiculously low from what i hear in reality. Someone in private practice in interventional cardiology in this area can easily make 7 figures for example(even with the recent cuts), and yet you see average salaries listed of 450k or so. It doesn't seem like researchers and academic types would bring the average down that low.

The fairest thing to do is probably compile an average of all salary surveys. Doing that shows that psychiatry makes amongst the lowest averages alongside pediatrics and family medicine.

But as others have said, how much money do you need? I went into psychiatry knowing that the people who pick procedure based fields will make far far more than me. That's a choice I made understanding everything, so I'm not bitter.

Why the hell is this idiot and liar back in this board? Please, kick this liar out of here.

Vistaril misrepresents information, who he/she is, and the field of psychiatry. Please stop this spammer and close the account.
 
Why the hell is this idiot and liar back in this board? Please, kick this liar out of here.

Vistaril misrepresents information, who he/she is, and the field of psychiatry. Please stop this spammer and close the account.

lol....looks like something I said(but sheeesh in reading it again I can't imagine what there is certainly nothing offensive, inflammatory or even dismissive) struck a chord with you.
 
lol no amount of money can buy this type of entertainment

I guess that all depends on the places one frequents......nothing against this forum(there are tools everywhere on the internet after all), but I can think of a few places where money can buy more entertainment than browsing sdn forums....
 
IMHO a reason why psychiatrists may take the salary for less than 200K when they could venture for more has a lot to do with doctors in general being savants. We are hyperspecialized in one area and don't know much about others like business.

Another reason: we're comfortable. At about 50K you have a clean and safe place to live, decent food. 75K+ decent stuff, money to play around with and do fun expensive things....you get the idea. So if one makes 175K, why take the risk of ruining your routine and risk going for something like 300K on a business that could flop?
 
IMHO a reason why psychiatrists may take the salary for less than 200K when they could venture for more has a lot to do with doctors in general being savants. We are hyperspecialized in one area and don't know much about others like business.

Another reason: we're comfortable. At about 50K you have a clean and safe place to live, decent food. 75K+ decent stuff, money to play around with and do fun expensive things....you get the idea. So if one makes 175K, why take the risk of ruining your routine and risk going for something like 300K on a business that could flop?

for the vast vast majority of psychiatrists though, they are paid by the hour and generate their revenue from seeing patients in distinct time intervals. I *don't* mean paid by the hour in the sense that the vast majority work for a cmhc or agency or whatever that pays by the hour. Point being a psychiatrist in private practice is still paid by the hour in a real sense. If he sees 3 patients in an hour and clears 65 dollars on each patient after copay, insurance, etc and his total overhead runs 40% including everything(malpractice too), then he makes about 115 or so an hour.

Now sure, there are people that can run this model a lot better than others. both in terms of business efficiency and ability to generate patients at higher collections per visits. It's really hard for a psychiatrist to flop at business imo. Even crappy psychiatrists can typically generate patients(they may not be the better patients but whatever).

But this model is still different than what people in medicine experience because there are so many other factors that go into what they actually make. Higher risk in some cases, but with it comes higher reward of course. You have large expenditures required on equipment. You have large expenditures required on staff and overhead(ever look at the staff/physician ratio in even an internal medicine practice?). You have large expenditures related to ancillary services. Of course with all these large expenditures also bring extra revenue sources as well.

Point is that psychiatry, whether one is in private practice or not, works on more of an hourly wage basis. At least in principle. Whereas a ore expansive business model is present in medicine.
 
Thank you for all the thoughtful responses and for not getting too riled up that I asked a money question. BTW I'm kinda stuck between neuro and psych, I'm sure actually doing the rotations later this year will help clarify, but based on forums alone it's psych ftw, the neuro folk don't seem to be too forthcoming...
 
Recent offers my graduated friends just took:

Los Angeles. Telemed to Cali prisons. 32h/wk. No call. 6wks vacation. 240k/yr.

VA (veterans not Virginia). 40h/wk. 220k/yr. q14 home call. Fed benefits.

Vegas. Adult. 40h/wk. minimal call. 200k/yr.

No one I know took a job for less than 200k.

These are starting salaries? Are these typical, or did they graduate from top residency programs?
 
These are starting salaries? Are these typical, or did they graduate from top residency programs?

I'm assuming he's referring to his home program that isn't considered a "top program". There are only a couple regular posters at what would traditionally carry the label of being "top".
 
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