Psychologists/trainees working in integrated care settings (PC, specialty med, etc.), what are the biggest challenges you face in your work?

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What are the biggest challenges you face as a in working in integrated care settings?

  • Lack of training in providing same day access/warm hand offs

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Not enough referrals

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Working in a virtual capacity/environment

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    8

integrated_care_doc

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Hi all,

I've trained/worked in integrated care settings for several years and have had the opportunity to work with trainees interested in health psych and/or integrated care. In my earlier years, I recall feeling excited to work in these settings and seeing the obvious value in meeting patients where they are, helping with access, and addressing the population health of a clinic. However, more and more, I'm seeing the pressures of productivity, outcomes, and reimbursement, as well as lack of training/understanding of how to effectively work in these settings as impeding the progress of genuine integrated care, especially when trying to establish a new integrated care program into an existing medical clinic.

I'm curious if others are also experiencing this and what specific challenges you're facing in this space.

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Three issues that I can think of: (1) Psychologists actually using EPBs is the biggest challenge that I've seen. Some people think that recommending the calm app repeatedly is somehow providing care, (2) midlevel encroachment as big orgs try to cut costs. They would rather pay less for a service and then complain about incompetence rather provide a quality integrated service, which is easier when #1 is happening, and (3) in my area at least health behavior codes pay less than MH codes so incentives to do MH treatment rather than health psych are higher.
 
Having trained in and worked in integrated care for almost two decades, I will add the following as the largest issues:

1. Business operations having no idea what you do or how to appropriately measure your "productivity".
2. Lack of reimbursement for collaborative care meetings means these are good ideas that get short-changed for "billable" services. Even in salaried positions, RVUs are the main measure of performance.
3. Poor morale/communication from overworked primary care and medical providers. PCPs have so many other things to be doing, worrying about a patient's feelings are not always on the priority list. This can translate to a lack or referrals or many poor referrals due to lack of time for proper screening.
4. Patient dumping - the belief that difficult patients all need psych follow-up. Some people are just a pain.
5. Poor pay - private practice simply offers better reimbursement for less training. As hospital staff for many years that trained interns and post-docs, I can't tell you both the happiness and the sting of seeing first year grads that I taught in private practice pull down more than me with less headaches.
6. Lack of stability in many hospital systems - This is a higher level issue.
 
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(2) midlevel encroachment as big orgs try to cut costs. They would rather pay less for a service and then complain about incompetence rather provide a quality integrated service, which is easier when #1 is happening, and
I've seen this happen. What makes it even worse is that the bean counters take these worse outcomes that they caused to occur with their shift to midlevels as a justification to cut the integrated care entirely.

(3) in my area at least health behavior codes pay less than MH codes so incentives to do MH treatment rather than health psych are higher.
And none of the non-clinical staff understand, care, or are willing to help with this. Funny how clinical staff see their income go down and/or work level go up when reimbursement cuts occur but non-clinical staff who don't bring in any money don't experience any changes to their pay or workloads...

Having trained in and worked in integrated care for almost two decades, I will add the following as the largest issues:

1. Business operations having no idea what you do or how to appropriately measure your "productivity".
2. Lack of reimbursement for collaborative care meetings means these are good ideas that get short-changed for "billable" services. Even in salaried positions, RVUs are the main measure of performance.
The only place I've seen this work at all is when the medical side is so overwhelmingly lucrative that they can afford to not really care about psychology RVUs, like transplant, cardiology, GI, and specialty pain (e.g., where they have an IOP). The physicians care about their numbers or complain so much that admin is willing to loosen the leash on psychology.

3. Poor morale/communication from overworked primary care and medical providers. PCPs have so many other things to be doing, worrying about a patient's feelings are not always on the priority list. This can translate to a lack or referrals or many poor referrals due to lack of time for proper screening.
Gotta love those crappy referrals ("pt cried when I gave them life altering diagnosis") or when providers still don't know what services psychology can offer despite psychology being embedded in the clinic for years and psychologists frequently communicating what they can offer specific patients they are seeing and their patient population more generally.

4. Patient dumping - the belief that difficult patients all need psych follow-up. Some people are just a pain.
Or when they want you to fix a structural issue (why TF aren't you referring to SW?) or solve a chronic issue that is beyond the scope and resources of integrated psychology in that setting.

5. Poor pay - private practice simply offers better reimbursement for less training. As hospital staff for many years that trained interns and post-docs, I can't tell you both the happiness and the sting of seeing first year grads that I taught in private practice pull down more than me with less headaches.
The headaches part is less tangible, especially for ECPs and trainees, but it's very salient once you've had to deal with BS, especially at the VA.
 
We had a PCP walk a patient over to our building without even consulting us first, just like messaged someone here that they were heading over with a patient who was in "crisis." We later found out that the "crisis" was that the patient couldn't stop crying.
 
We had a PCP walk a patient over to our building without even consulting us first, just like messaged someone here that they were heading over with a patient who was in "crisis." We later found out that the "crisis" was that the patient couldn't stop crying.

Does Environmental Service or Prosthetics provide boxes of tissues? Stat Consult!
 
Having trained in and worked in integrated care for almost two decades, I will add the following as the largest issues:
Currently most of my present work is in the setting you worked in.
1. Business operations having no idea what you do or how to appropriately measure your "productivity".
Yep, just slapping "points" or "percentages" on productivity with no real underpinning for it. Additionally even if well intentioned, a lot of just not really understanding the settings or the work and middle/upper management of both facilities and the companies that third party employ providers suddenly dropping "exciting new changes" that aren't based in the reality of the work. Or they implement a change or policy because the facility "complains" to the providing company about something and instead of thinking clinically they knee jerk a protective stance and then there's more miscommunication and hoops to jump through. Or middle managers sitting at home looking at spreadsheets and asking why aren't providers busier "there's so many patients to see!" without considering logistics or patient need.
2. Lack of reimbursement for collaborative care meetings means these are good ideas that get short-changed for "billable" services. Even in salaried positions, RVUs are the main measure of performance.
Yep. Especially if you opt for fees for service vs salaried. And even the salaried folks often find their productivity and days get impacted the more they spend on trying to collaborate.
3. Poor morale/communication from overworked primary care and medical providers. PCPs have so many other things to be doing, worrying about a patient's feelings are not always on the priority list. This can translate to a lack or referrals or many poor referrals due to lack of time for proper screening.
True, I've met quite a few of them who either dump referrals "everyone needs psych" or just prescribe medications or send them to ER if they even mention they're depressed, then pikachu face ask "where was psych?!"
4. Patient dumping - the belief that difficult patients all need psych follow-up. Some people are just a pain.
On the daily. And while most of these providers and nurses are well intentioned, they really don't have the training or understanding to really know what a valid psych referral reason might be. Or they just don't want to deal with the patient and can check off in the chart, "referred." Or the circle of referring patients to psychiatry or another department then having them referred back because "it's emotional." I've been surprised how, some medical doctors and many psych nurses or psychiatrists really have a lack of foundational understanding of mental health.
5. Poor pay - private practice simply offers better reimbursement for less training. As hospital staff for many years that trained interns and post-docs, I can't tell you both the happiness and the sting of seeing first year grads that I taught in private practice pull down more than me with less headaches.
Pay can be good or bad depending on the company and the boundaries one sets.
6. Lack of stability in many hospital systems - This is a higher level issue.
Private equity comes in and disrupts with negative results for patients and staff.

I'll add mis-using depression and symptom screeners and facilities "boosting" numbers to access more money and profits and having non-clinical or non-medical staff trying to dictate who must be seen or who shouldn't be seen. Midlevels in management positions ordering around providers based on nothing but their "feeling" of what is "best." And of course overall lack of knowledge or understanding from other disciplines about what constitutes a mental health crisis or versus normal thoughts and emotions in a crappy situation and environment. Or not understanding nuances such as "patient reports they wish they wouldn't wake up, patient is suicidal" then you see patient and they're 98 years old talking about how they've lived a good life and feel it's their time and that god will take them when they're ready. Which is of course different than SI.
 
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Becoming too cynical should be on the list.

Soooo....was PsyDr correct?
Poster with no history wants to sample professional opinions… Either it’s curiosity or disguised revenue generating activity.


The minimum amount of money I’ve ever gotten for a professional opinion is $50. There’s 6 unique responses. So is this $300 of free labor, that violates TOS, or is it professional curiosity?
 
Pay can be good or bad depending on the company and the boundaries one sets.

While I haven't done that work in a while, I will say this may have been true pre-pandemic. The recruiter calls I received recently seem to suggest that they have not changed their incentives post-pandemic. If you are offering me the same money as a company that is hiring for telehealth from home to drive to a facility and collaborate with a care team, that is no longer decent money.
 
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Poster with no history wants to sample professional opinions… Either it’s curiosity or disguised revenue generating activity.


The minimum amount of money I’ve ever gotten for a professional opinion is $50. There’s 6 unique responses. So is this $300 of free labor, that violates TOS, or is it professional curiosity?
Apologies for the delay in responding. I was truly curious. I'm wondering how we improve these issues given so many of the issues you all brought up are organizational/systemic. I'm concerned that these challenges will turn trainees/professionals off, esp given the note that Sanman brought up re. lack of incentives to make the effort to work in person/with other disciplines and that integrated care will simply become a fruitless effort.

Thanks all for the validation that my concerns aren't necessarily unique. Again, sorry about the delayed response.
 
Apologies for the delay in responding. I was truly curious. I'm wondering how we improve these issues given so many of the issues you all brought up are organizational/systemic. I'm concerned that these challenges will turn trainees/professionals off, esp given the note that Sanman brought up re. lack of incentives to make the effort to work in person/with other disciplines and that integrated care will simply become a fruitless effort.

Thanks all for the validation that my concerns aren't necessarily unique. Again, sorry about the delayed response.
Totally fair. I apologize for any harshness. But I think we can both respect the need to pay for professional work.
 
I feel like 10 years ago PCMH was the beez-neez and was "the future of mental health." How did that work out?

Apa division 38 was established in 1978. Health psych was the future of psychology. When I began my my graduate training 20 years ago, it was the future. When I finished training, there was talk of pcmhi being the fiture and mental health clinics being a thing of the past.

Much like electric cars, in most settings outside AMCs and VA hospitals, it is still the future. When I retire, I may still hear about it being the future of MH.
 
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Apa division 38 was established in 1978. Health psychiwas the future of psychology. When I began my my graduate training 20 years ago, it was the future. When I finished training, there was talk of pcmhi being the fiture and mental health clinics being a thing of the past.

Much like electric cars, in most settings outside AMCs and VA hospitals, it is still the future. When I retire, I may still hear about it being the future of MH.
Agreed - PCMHI is standard/required care in VA hospitals, but VAs are very different then civilian settings.
 
Apa division 38 was established in 1978. Health psychiwas the future of psychology. When I began my my graduate training 20 years ago, it was the future. When I finished training, there was talk of pcmhi being the fiture and mental health clinics being a thing of the past.

Much like electric cars, in most settings outside AMCs and VA hospitals, it is still the future. When I retire, I may still hear about it being the future of MH.
You basically called Primary Care the Dippin’ Dots of Psychology…highly accurate.
IMG_6538.jpeg
 
I am very curious how telehealth has impacted post-doc fellowship numbers, particularly in states that do not require post-doc for licensure.
Really good question. For what it's worth, I'm in PA which does require a post-doc for licensure and our postdoc applicants have grown over the last few years following the pandemic.
 
Really good question. For what it's worth, I'm in PA which does require a post-doc for licensure and our postdoc applicants have grown over the last few years following the pandemic.
PA doesn't require a post-doc for licensure btw if the hours from practicums and internship meet the same hours requirement total: https://www.papsy.org/general/custom.asp?page=PostDoc2020.

I was one of the first round of early career psychologists that got a license in PA without a formal post-doc, however the board did not accept one of my practicums because it wasn't enough hours per week (and was a few years before the 2020 change so many schools wouldn't have adjusted the practicums to meet this standard) so required me to get supervised experience (i.e an informal post doc) for the remaining hours. I also started my program prior to 2015 but was granted approval.

I imagine most programs have now adjusted practicum requirements so all practicums + internship hours combined can satisfy the requirement so I would imagine there's going to be more early career psychologists without post-docs since 2015 there's been at least 3-4 years of graduating classes coming out of most schools. So the increase in applicants you're seeing are due to one of four reasons or a combination of them: 1.) their program isn't aware of the change, 2.) the student isn't aware of the change, 3.) they want to specialize further, or 4.) they plan on moving to or getting licensed in a state that still requires a formal post doc prior to licensure (but as of 2017 there are 17 states that either do not require a post doc or allow practicum/internship combined hours to satisfy the requirement).

Post-doc pre-licensed individuals are cheap labor and a lot of integrated healthcare settings are owned by private equity companies that love to pinch pennies to increase profits. Hopefully you're mindful of this disconnect between awareness of the post-doc requirement change and the possible push to keep funneling post docs into the cheap labor system.
 
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We had a PCP walk a patient over to our building without even consulting us first, just like messaged someone here that they were heading over with a patient who was in "crisis." We later found out that the "crisis" was that the patient couldn't stop crying.
Hell, at least they walked them over, lol.
 
I feel like 10 years ago PCMH was the beez-neez and was "the future of mental health." How did that work out?
It turns out that the future is circular...just like the past...we keep re-inventing old stuff and re-hyping it ad infinitum, it seems 🙂
 
It turns out that the future is circular...just like the past...we keep re-inventing old stuff and re-hyping it ad infinitum, it seems 🙂
“Ka is a wheel” The Gunslinger (Stephen King)
Also from the Dark Tower novels and considering current turbulent times and especially post Covid
“The world has moved on”
 
Other - the fact that psychologists aren't valued and are happily pushed aside for social workers who supposedly do everything we do for less money.
 
Other - the fact that psychologists aren't valued and are happily pushed aside for social workers who supposedly do everything we do for less money.

Don't forget the part where they spend money hiring seven tiers of bureaucrats to micro manage the social workers plus all the consultants they hire to provide training when they discover the differences.
 
A physician I know was telling me about one of their annual meetings with hgiher ups about how they were again cutting compensation and raising RVU targets, leading to overall lower pay. The executive giving the speech was trying to rationalize it with claims of reduced revenue, etc. This physician asked if the non-clinical employees, practice managers, and executives specifically would also be taking pay cuts in light of the organization's financial woes. Many a dirty looks were given and then they moved on with the presentations.
 
Don't forget the part where they spend money hiring seven tiers of bureaucrats to micro manage the social workers plus all the consultants they hire to provide training when they discover the differences.

I'll take consultant money to train social workers and avoid patients. I charge $500/hr for consulting.
 
A physician I know was telling me about one of their annual meetings with hgiher ups about how they were again cutting compensation and raising RVU targets, leading to overall lower pay. The executive giving the speech was trying to rationalize it with claims of reduced revenue, etc. This physician asked if the non-clinical employees, practice managers, and executives specifically would also be taking pay cuts in light of the organization's financial woes. Many a dirty looks were given and then they moved on with the presentations.

And people wonder why so many of us spend more and more time in non-clinical work.
 
A physician I know was telling me about one of their annual meetings with hgiher ups about how they were again cutting compensation and raising RVU targets, leading to overall lower pay. The executive giving the speech was trying to rationalize it with claims of reduced revenue, etc. This physician asked if the non-clinical employees, practice managers, and executives specifically would also be taking pay cuts in light of the organization's financial woes. Many a dirty looks were given and then they moved on with the presentations.


Wizard Of Oz GIF


I really can't wait till AI note writing, scheduling, and billing are perfected. Solo PP will be a joy.
 
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Granted I'm pathological idealist, but I don't think bureaucracy is something to aspire to.

I'm pretty sure he meant legal work as opposed to the ongoing Teams conversation I have pinging in the background about what note title resolves a clinical reminder (which is also non-clinical work).
 
When I was an academic I wasted HOURS every week in administrative meetings. Now I rarely take a meeting unless I’m getting paid for my time. I’ll take a brief meeting to vet a potential referral, but those are the exception.

As for mid-levels replacing psychologists, that is the result of our profession not understanding how decisions are made in healthcare (based on spreadsheets) and piss poor lobbying. Nursing and SW’er scope creep are two great examples of how better lobbying overcomes lesser training.

Therapy only and similar clinical positions are a race to the bottom. Smart psychologists specialize, know their billing stats (e.g. billed $, collections, if you are a net negative or positive, are you bundled or billed separately, etc) and they differentiate themselves from midlevels and generalists.
 
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Gotcha. Aren't IMEs semi-clinical? Or is the brunt of the work records reviews, meeting with lawyers, etc?

There is a clinical eval, but that's usually the smallest portion of the time you spend on a case. So there is still the "clinical" piece, but it's not technically clinical work. And, there is no insurance company trying to cut into the reimbursement. If I'm doing the work, they've already agreed to my fee structure.
 
When I was an academic I wasted HOURS every week in administrative meetings. Now I rarely take a meeting unless I’m getting paid for my time. I’ll take a brief meeting to vet a potential referral, but those are the exception.

As for mid-levels replacing psychologists, that is the result of our profession not understanding how decisions are made in healthcare (based on spreadsheets) and piss poor lobbying. Nursing and SW’er scope creep are two great examples of how better lobbying overcomes lesser training.

Therapy only and similar clinical positions are a race to the bottom. Smart psychologists specialize, know their billing stats (e.g. billed $, collections, if you are a net negative or positive, are you bundled or bilked separately, etc) and they differentiate themselves from midlevels and generalists.

To bring this back to the topic at hand, the problem with integrated care settings is that it obfuscates the value of the individual provider. If I convince a patient that is non-compliant to take their medications, it is difficult to calculate that individual contribution into the bigger picture. This is a win for admin folks that want to low ball your salary.

As for the lobbying issues, I think that it so far gone that it no longer matters. We are well on our way to a two-tiered healthcare system in many places. Most of the physicians I know have moved into direct care and are replaced by midlevels at the local healthcare conglomerate. I pay out of pocket just to have an actual physician still be involved in my care. I am seeing the same with psychologists. Just got listserv email looking for a geropsych provider and the first three responses stated they no longer take Medicare.
 
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To bring this back to the topic at hand, the problem with integrated care settings is that it obfuscates the value of the individual provider. If I convince a patient that is non-compliant to take their medications, it is difficult to calculate that individual contribution into the bigger picture. This is a win for admin folks that want to low ball your salary.

As for the lobbying issues, I think that it so far gone that it no longer matters. We are well on our way to a two-tiered healthcare system in many places. Most of the physicians I know have more into direct care and are replaced by midlevels at the local healthcare conglomerate. I pay out of pocket just to have an actual physician still be involved in my care. I am seeing the same with psychologists. Just got listserv email looking for a geropsych provider and the first three responses stated they no longer take Medicare.

Three physician friends of mine and my spouse have moved into DPC in the last year alone locally. And, nearly impossible to find an MD/DO at urgent cares and many primary care. After moving in the area, I kept my PCP MD even though I have to drive about half an hour for in-person appointments rather than get a midlevel at the clinic within 5 minutes of my house.
 
Don't forget the part where they spend money hiring seven tiers of bureaucrats to micro manage the social workers plus all the consultants they hire to provide training when they discover the differences.

Sadly I have not seen this. Instead psychologists are just expected to support social work when they get overwhelmed which really translates to us either doing their work on top of our own for zero acknowledgement.
 
Three physician friends of mine and my spouse have moved into DPC in the last year alone locally. And, nearly impossible to find an MD/DO at urgent cares and many primary care. After moving in the area, I kept my PCP MD even though I have to drive about half an hour for in-person appointments rather than get a midlevel at the clinic within 5 minutes of my house.
This is definitely the way to go. I have a concierge doc for my PCP. While I have the option for telehealth, I drive 30min to be seen in-office. I just had my physical and it was nearly 80min. The last 10min for bloodwork. When I schedule I mention what I want to cover, and they make sure we have the time needed. These types of practices charge monthly/annual fees, so they can see less pts and provide better care.
 
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