Psychotic depression pathophysiology

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Ron Mexico

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Hello all,
I was having a discussion with some other residents and psychotic depression came up. A point was brought up whether the neurochemical pathways for psychotic depression were different than for schizophrenia. Any thoughts? I did some basic lit search but didn't find anything.
 
Hello all,
I was having a discussion with some other residents and psychotic depression came up. A point was brought up whether the neurochemical pathways for psychotic depression were different than for schizophrenia. Any thoughts? I did some basic lit search but didn't find anything.

I don't think psychotic depression is very common at all. It's a difficult diagnosis, and I don't think there is much of it out there(especially in the non-geri pop). Geri I will admit it's different, but still probably overdiagnosed.

All these 30 year olds carrying a dx of 'mdd with psychotic features' are in the vast majority of cases not the real deal. imo at least.
 
Hello all,
I was having a discussion with some other residents and psychotic depression came up. A point was brought up whether the neurochemical pathways for psychotic depression were different than for schizophrenia. Any thoughts? I did some basic lit search but didn't find anything.

I see my Psychiatrist soon, I'll ask him if he can send me some info or literature. It's an area I'm interested in as well. I figure if I'm gonna be diagnosed with it, I'd better learn about it - knowledge is power, and all that.

And yes I am one of these 30 (actually 40) year olds being treated for mdd with psychotic features* 😉

*(we did skip around a bit with the possibility of schizoaffective disorder, but ended up back at mdd with psychotic fx - mostly though my Psych tends to view psychotic disorders as being on a spectrum, it just so happens mdd with psychotic fx is the best fit for me on that spectrum. Six of one half a dozen of the other really, it doesn't change my basic treatment).
 
I don't think that there's a singular set of neurochemical pathways for MDD with psychosis. I suspect that it's actually a collection of distinct disorders that we lump together because we don't know enough to separate them out.

I think that the "spectrum" explanation does a good job of explaining psychotic disorders as we understand them now. But in reality, I think that we'll someday discover that there's more to it than that... we've already found multiple different connectivity defects and multiple different genetic influences that can lead to development of schizophrenia, and I think that these are actually distinct disorders that we've been classifying together because they have similar presentations.
 
Agree with shan. Kinda like autism, I believe in a few years we'll see more clearly how it's actually many disorders that we lump together into one (noted by many different gene mutations). Also agree with vistaril that MDD with psychotic features is over diagnosed. Just because someone will once in a while hear a CAH that is derogatory does not make someone MDD with psychosis (probably more borderline, or other things).
 
Also agree with vistaril that MDD with psychotic features is over diagnosed. Just because someone will once in a while hear a CAH that is derogatory does not make someone MDD with psychosis (probably more borderline, or other things).

Yes, I do have to bite the bullet and admit it is over diagnosed, if some of the support forums I visit are anything to go by.....'So you have MDD with Psychotic Fx because one time you were depressed and not sleeping well, and you saw some shadow figures out the corner of your eye, and heard a voice calling your name. Tell me more about how your Psychiatrist diagnosed you' :bored:
 
Not sure if any of these are helpful to you OP. I need to work my way through this list and see which ones I can get access to myself. Interesting topic.

The Dopamine Hypothesis of Schizophrenia: Version III—The Final Common Pathway

http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/3/549.long

Glutamate neurocircuitry: theoretical underpinnings in schizophrenia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23189055

NMDA receptor and schizophrenia: a brief history.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22987850

From revolution to evolution: the glutamate hypothesis of schizophrenia and its implication for treatment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21956446

Glutamatergic dysfunction in schizophrenia: from basic neuroscience to clinical psychopharmacology.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18650071

Midbrain dopamine function in schizophrenia and depression: a post-mortem and positron emission tomographic imaging study

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/10/03/brain.awt264.full

Dopaminergic function and the cortisol response to dexamethasone in psychotic depression.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10800744

A corticosteroid/dopamine hypothesis for psychotic depression and related states

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022395685900688

Serum Dopamine-βHydroxylase Activity in the Affective Psychoses and Schizophrenia
Decreased Activity in Unipolar Psychotically Depressed Patients

http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=491543
 
Not sure if any of these are helpful to you OP. I need to work my way through this list and see which ones I can get access to myself. Interesting topic.

The Dopamine Hypothesis of Schizophrenia: Version III—The Final Common Pathway

http://schizophreniabulletin.oxfordjournals.org/content/35/3/549.long

Glutamate neurocircuitry: theoretical underpinnings in schizophrenia.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23189055

NMDA receptor and schizophrenia: a brief history.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22987850

From revolution to evolution: the glutamate hypothesis of schizophrenia and its implication for treatment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21956446

Glutamatergic dysfunction in schizophrenia: from basic neuroscience to clinical psychopharmacology.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18650071

Midbrain dopamine function in schizophrenia and depression: a post-mortem and positron emission tomographic imaging study

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/10/03/brain.awt264.full

Dopaminergic function and the cortisol response to dexamethasone in psychotic depression.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10800744

A corticosteroid/dopamine hypothesis for psychotic depression and related states

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022395685900688

Serum Dopamine-βHydroxylase Activity in the Affective Psychoses and Schizophrenia
Decreased Activity in Unipolar Psychotically Depressed Patients

http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=491543

Well, having this reading list ruined my hopes of getting any writing done today. Thanks for posting all these!
 
I don't think psychotic depression is very common at all. It's a difficult diagnosis, and I don't think there is much of it out there(especially in the non-geri pop). Geri I will admit it's different, but still probably overdiagnosed.

All these 30 year olds carrying a dx of 'mdd with psychotic features' are in the vast majority of cases not the real deal. imo at least.
Is this supposed to be an actual response to the question in the OP, or did you just pick a word from the OP and decide to give us your thoughts on it?
 
Vistaril - I'm actually interested to know what you think qualifies as a legitimate diagnosis of MDD with Psychotic Fx outside the Geri population? What symptomology would you expect to see, or would be looking for in order to make a diagnosis you believed was the correct one. Obviously I can't use myself as a case study for you to comment on, so create an imaginary patient and tell us your thoughts. Genuine interest here, no mucking about . 🙂
 
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I don't think psychotic depression is very common at all. It's a difficult diagnosis, and I don't think there is much of it out there(especially in the non-geri pop). Geri I will admit it's different, but still probably overdiagnosed.

All these 30 year olds carrying a dx of 'mdd with psychotic features' are in the vast majority of cases not the real deal. imo at least.
I agree. A lot of people complain about "hearing voices," and a lot of psychiatrists just great those words and write down "psychosis." If you really investigate it, most of those people just had a prominent thought that felt like a voice... or an illusion that they characterized as a hallucination. True MDD with psychosis is rare. If I see a young patient who has that diagnosis, I generally assume that it's probably actually somebody with schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder who just hasn't had enough reliable longitudinal history to allow for an accurate diagnosis. Or it could be substance abuse.
 
I agree. A lot of people complain about "hearing voices," and a lot of psychiatrists just great those words and write down "psychosis." If you really investigate it, most of those people just had a prominent thought that felt like a voice... or an illusion that they characterized as a hallucination. True MDD with psychosis is rare. If I see a young patient who has that diagnosis, I generally assume that it's probably actually somebody with schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder who just hasn't had enough reliable longitudinal history to allow for an accurate diagnosis. Or it could be substance abuse.

What, in your opinion then, separates Schizophrenia, Schizoaffective Disorder and MDD with Psychotic Fx in terms of symptomology? If you apply the spectrum model of psychotic disorders then why would one particular diagnosis be rarer along that spectrum than others? If it is, as I'm starting to agree, an over diagnosed condition and rarely seen outside a certain age group, is that rarity then explained by a different brain/neural pathway setup than with other more common psychotic type disorders such as Schizophrenia or Schizoaffective Disorder?
 
I wrote my dissertation in this area, with a focus on the role of the HPA. Not common, but more common than we probably think because the psychosis is rarely as blantant/florid or of the same flavor as the psychosis many clincians are used to seeing and picking up on. Alan Schatzberg has written extensively on this, as has Rothschild at UMass. There is a great book on psychotic major depression that Rothschild wrote in 2009, I believe. Provides a good comp overview of nature, diagnosis, pathophys lit, and treatment.
 
I've seen a lot of good discussion on frank psychosis. Is there a possibilty for delusions to be apart of the psychosis spectrum when treating profound depression?
 
What, in your opinion then, separates Schizophrenia, Schizoaffective Disorder and MDD with Psychotic Fx in terms of symptomology? If you apply the spectrum model of psychotic disorders then why would one particular diagnosis be rarer along that spectrum than others? If it is, as I'm starting to agree, an over diagnosed condition and rarely seen outside a certain age group, is that rarity then explained by a different brain/neural pathway setup than with other more common psychotic type disorders such as Schizophrenia or Schizoaffective Disorder?

Symptomatology might not be different... you can only reliably make a distinction based on longitudinal history. Classically, MDD with psychosis usually presents with a distinct set of delusions (usually self-deprecating in nature), but that's not a reliable distinguishing sign. Patients diagnosed with MDD with psychosis usually turn out to have bipolar disorder, a substance-related problem, or a schizophrenia spectrum disorder if you observe them longitudinally or if you are able to get a reliable collateral history. I've also had a lot of patients who were diagnosed with MDD with psychosis who turned out not to have genuine psychosis when you get a more precise history.
 
I have seen a few genuine MDD with psychotic fx, but like everyone's already said, most are actually either on the Borderline Spectrum or simply colloquialize a strong intrusive (but self-voiced) thought as 'a voice'.

Most of the MDD with psychotic fx I've seen has been in people with a family history of BPAD and/or schizophrenia. Which makes sense, when you think about it.

As for the genetics, etc. I do think that there is some splitting apart left to do, but I also think that since we actually only understand the mechanics of all of our disorders in the crudest sense, most likely we will eventually discover that while multiple genes contribute, they mostly do so through distorting or derailing a common single pathway, rather than multiple pathways that 'look the same'. A situation more analagous to the genetics and pathophysiology of DM2 (ultimately it's all insulin resistance) rather than Ventricular Tachycardia for instance.

BTW, Ceke, I haven't had a chance to say this yet, but you are definitely a blessing to the forum. Total score for all of us to have your point of view available.
 
This has been a fascinating discussion. I'd like to throw my 2 cents in, FWIW, contributing towards the other end of the spectrum for psychosis with visual hallucinations (aparitions/shadows from the corners of eyes) and/or delusional thinking through the depression spectrum and no documented manic symptoms. This has been my experience.
 
I have seen a few genuine MDD with psychotic fx, but like everyone's already said, most are actually either on the Borderline Spectrum or simply colloquialize a strong intrusive (but self-voiced) thought as 'a voice'.

Most of the MDD with psychotic fx I've seen has been in people with a family history of BPAD and/or schizophrenia. Which makes sense, when you think about it.

As for the genetics, etc. I do think that there is some splitting apart left to do, but I also think that since we actually only understand the mechanics of all of our disorders in the crudest sense, most likely we will eventually discover that while multiple genes contribute, they mostly do so through distorting or derailing a common single pathway, rather than multiple pathways that 'look the same'. A situation more analagous to the genetics and pathophysiology of DM2 (ultimately it's all insulin resistance) rather than Ventricular Tachycardia for instance.

BTW, Ceke, I haven't had a chance to say this yet, but you are definitely a blessing to the forum. Total score for all of us to have your point of view available.

First of all, thank you for your kind comment. You have me blushing over here. :joyful:

Now I need to tread carefully with this reply, because I'm not supposed to discuss my own diagnosis in too much detail lest it seem I'm angling for medical advice. It's interesting the mention of family history. Most of the people I've spoken to who 'thought' they had MDD with Psychotic Fx (because this one time they were stressed out and felt really down, and then they saw shadow creatures out the corner of their eyes so now they're totes psychotic as well as being depressed because that HAD to be an hallucination - I'm sure you've heard the same lyrics sung to a different tune) when spending even five minutes speaking to them, even as a lay person, it was pretty clear they nowhere near met diagnostic criteria, absolutely none of them reported any history of Schizophrenia or Psychotic spectrum disorders in their family, but there was always plenty of anxiety and anxiety related disorders. Me personally, I had one Great Aunt, on my Dad's side, who was institutionalised for life in an Insane Asylum back in the 1940s or 50s (the family always referred to it as a Nervous Collapse, but it was pretty clear from later details that emerged through family research it was likely she suffered from Schizophrenia in some form or another), and my Dad wasn't exactly what you'd call normal in terms of thought processing either (he had hallucinations of dancing mice on the TV, thought a 'Doctor's Mafia' existed to put hits out on patients if they made any complaints, and regularly checked the garden for hidden listening devices). So yeah, family history, definitely in my situation.

Having said that, although I no longer meet specific diagnostic criteria for any one personality disorder, I do still carry aspects with me, including what I suppose might be referred to as tendencies from the Borderline Paradigm or Spectrum. The thing is though, I can tell the difference between my latent personality disorder, chicken little 'the sky is falling' overreactions that can then lead to a stress induced pseudohallucinatory experience (what I think of as 'soft psychosis) and the types of things I experience associated with MDD with Psychotic Fx. The two things feel very different, to the point that is almost feels like they are coming from different areas of the brain. In my case therapy, mindfulness, yoga, and remaining spiritually aware and focused helps me deal with the personality disorder 'soft psychosis' episodes, the other stuff I hammer away at with medication (especially the expressive dysphasia/word salad/poverty of speech side of things - nothing more frustrating than trying to have a conversation with a loved one only to stammer at them blankly, or open your mouth and have complete gibberish come out)

I hope that wasn't TMI for my situation? Trying to tread very softly, tip toeing even. :xf:

So now I'm wondering if anyone else has had a patient with co-morbid diagnosis of Personality Disorder(s) on top of MDD with Psychotic Fx and if they've described similar feelings - ie the idea/thought that the experiences between the two are very different, not just in content, but in actual 'feeling' as well.
 
Symptomatology might not be different... you can only reliably make a distinction based on longitudinal history. Classically, MDD with psychosis usually presents with a distinct set of delusions (usually self-deprecating in nature), but that's not a reliable distinguishing sign. Patients diagnosed with MDD with psychosis usually turn out to have bipolar disorder, a substance-related problem, or a schizophrenia spectrum disorder if you observe them longitudinally or if you are able to get a reliable collateral history. I've also had a lot of patients who were diagnosed with MDD with psychosis who turned out not to have genuine psychosis when you get a more precise history.

Interesting, thank you. Sounds a lot like the way my own Psychiatrist has described things to me in terms of it being on a spectrum of Schizophrenic/Psychotic type disorders, rather than necessarily being a fixed in stone type of diagnosis. It just so happens the 'diagnostic label' that fits best for me in regards to my symptomology along that spectrum is MDD with Psychotic Fx. To be honest after working with him for several years now I don't worry too much about what label fits where. I mean I'm not making a mental health fashion statement - 'Oh no, my Psychotic Depression jacket just doesn't go with these Anxiety Disorder shoes, quick let me find another diagnosis to throw on.
 
Here's an interesting case that I think illustrates some mental health practitioners unfortunate tendency to jump straight to MDD with Psychotic Fx without ruling out other conditions. We've just had a very desperate parent post on one of the patient forums I frequent looking for help for his teenage daughter. Symptoms include having an imaginary angelic friend at the age of 2 as a coping mechanism for grief, depression developing later in teenage years, episodes of cutting, has now recently claimed to have been hearing voices for years and the voices are telling her not to take the Risperidal she's being prescribed for what appears to be a diagnosis of Psychotic Major Depression. Family history includes substance abuse, unstable family relationships, and familial abuse on the mother's side.

Now I don't know the full story, so she may very well have a legit case of PMD, but with a symptomatic and family history like that, I would think it more prudent to rule out other, more likely Axis II type causes, rather than just jump straight to 'hearing voices + depression and cutting = Psychotic Depression. Am I wrong in thinking this?
 
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I'd like to comment on the above posts, but I don't think I can do that without giving medical advice, which would be inappropriate to do without actually seeing the patient. I'll just say that it sounds like you have a good psychiatrist.
 
I'd like to comment on the above posts, but I don't think I can do that without giving medical advice, which would be inappropriate to do without actually seeing the patient. I'll just say that it sounds like you have a good psychiatrist.

Totally understand, I'd never want to put any of the Doctors on the forum in the position of giving medical advice. I thought the questions were general enough that that wouldn't be the case; however, I can see now that perhaps it was skating a little too close to the edge. For obvious reasons this is just a topic I have a personal interest in so any time it comes up I'm always eager to read the discussion that ensues.

And yes my Psychiatrist is great. I am very grateful to have him as my treating Physician, and we have an excellent working therapeutic relationship. 🙂
 
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