Psyd program and 4 kids?

[LGist]

Hey everyone I am just finishing up my bachelor's degree in psychology. And I want to enter into a PSYD program for those who know what it is like can I do it having 4 kids? I do have a significant other that is very supportive with all of my endeavors. And he works a good job so not working is not a huge problem for me.

I have a few questions

When do you typically get out of school each day in a PSYD program?
All the colleges and universities are basically a hour out from where I live so I'll have to commute and make it home by 5pm if I couldnt my S/O could pick up the kids.

Will I be able to work a little within the program

What are the questions that I need to be asking each university about their program.

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[R. Matey]

Many of these questions are going to be dependent on which programs you have in mind, but in general, doctoral study is a full time commitment. I'm curious about your goals for attending a Psy.D. program and whether they might be better met with a master's degree in either social work or counseling.

 

[WisNeuro]

For all but the most predatory diploma mills, it's going to be an extremely difficult road as I assume you are geographically restricted?

 

[summerbabe]

All the colleges and universities are basically a hour out from where I live so I'll have to commute and make it home by 5pm if I couldnt my S/O could pick up the kids.

One thing that will be less predictable in a PhD/PsyD program is your schedule since you're often juggling multiple things in a given day (classes, clinical work on campus if your program has a dept training clinic, external practicum at a local training site, on campus assistantship if you have funding, research team meetings/projects if you're part of a lab, etc).

Plus you likely have less control & advance notice of your schedule in comparison to undergrad and many other grad programs.

For example, law school is rigorous but a lot of it is extra studying that you can do on your own time since you'll know exactly when your classes are and when they end.

Being an hour away will definitely make things more difficult. Sometimes you might have a morning class at 8-930am but your clinical practicum might be from 1-4pm (when supervision/physical space is available). And you likely won't have multiple time options for your classes, which will also need to be taken in sequential fashion.

So what do you do in the middle of the day? And what if things run long such as your 3-4pm patient is in crisis and you can't leave at 4pm on the dot to pick up a kid by 5pm?

Not saying it's not doable but there will be unforeseen challenges and stressors. I had a classmate who had 3 young kids & a flexible and understanding spouse. But everything that he needed to travel to was within a 15 minute drive in our college town, which I'm sure helped a ton since he lived only a few minutes from campus so he could scoot back and forth really easily to maximize his time.

If your goal is to be a therapist, a MSW, LPC, MFT, etc program will almost certainly allow for more flexibility and help you reach a goal of practicing clinically. Good luck!

 

[PsyDr]

1) The coursework is the EASIEST part. Let's say you take 12 credit hrs. So MWF, you're in class for 12 hrs. Add in an extreme amount of reading and assignments (e.g., 100pgs of reading per class+ some essay or something). Then there are assignments where you have to demonstrate proficiency in administering psychological tests, so add in another 5hrs (i.e., it is typical to have to administer X number of tests to another student or such, and you have to coordinate with them). Then there is lab and/or practica (i.e., another 20+hrs per week), so that takes up Tuesday and Thursday, and maybe some time in between. Then you get home and write, write, write. There are essays, and tests and such. But you are also learning how to write a typical psychological evaluation that runs 10+ pages, single spaced. Those take a lot of time to write, initially. Same for research, and other professional BS. After a year of two of that schedule, you get to the therapy practica, where writing is less onerous, and maybe you take fewer hours. But while that is goin on, you are completing your dissertation, applying to internship, writing essays to get into internship, and flying to those internships for interviews.

2) Uhhhhh. It's not typical. You could potentially get lucky, and land a practica that somehow allows you to leave at 3:30PM. IIRC, the standard hours for practica are ~20hrs/week. No idea how that would work with kids and a full course load, but surely people have done it. If you decide to do that, you would be wise to figure out a way to sell this to supervisors. It's like that scene in The Office, where Jim says he'll be working in another place, less available, and still taking the same paycheck. That schedule sounds a LOT like educational settings, which would lower your potential income.

3) Being a TA/RA is pretty standard. I used to steal the hot coco packets from the teacher's lounge, because that was my MWF "dinner".

 

[cara susanna]

I had a cohort mate who had five kids and did just fine.

 

[R. Matey]

Being a TA/RA is pretty standard. I used to steal the hot coco packets from the teacher's lounge, because that was my MWF "dinner".

In my third year prac, I LIVED for Thursday because the resident lunch at the AMC was always a magnificent spread.

 

[RxPsych]

In my third year prac, I LIVED for Thursday because the resident lunch at the AMC was always a magnificent spread.

This. Except there's a pharma rep in the room that will talk to anyone that will listen. Then I show them my student badge and almost immediately they pretend I don't exist. That way I can grab the food and get outta there real quick

 

[Sanman]

In my third year prac, I LIVED for Thursday because the resident lunch at the AMC was always a magnificent spread.

I did love horning in on resident lunch as a student at the AMC. I also got some decent swag including a really nice travel coffee mug that ironically came with branding for a sleep med (Rozerem I think?).

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Granted I went to a PhD program and not a PsyD program, but one of my cohort-mates opted to re-home her dog after seeing how much work just the first year of grad school was. She loved her pet, but felt she wasn't giving him enough time with all her responsibilities in school. Kids are soooo much more work than pets and you have it times 4.

I agree with the above suggestions of seriously considering if a master's degree will meet your career needs. Additionally, you didn't mention which PsyD schools you'd be considering. There are many predatory PsyD schools where you get an inferior education with a high price tag. It's possible that the schools that are an hour away are really not worth considering.

Good luck!

 

[LGist]

Many of these questions are going to be dependent on which programs you have in mind, but in general, doctoral study is a full time commitment. I'm curious about your goals for attending a Psy.D. program and whether they might be better met with a master's degree in either social work or counseling.

I want to be a psychologist rather than a licensed counselor which I know is the easiest shortest route but the pay difference I do have a passion for both but the pay. I feel like being a licensed counselor and only making 60k a year maybe less not sure more maybe is not worth it because some people with no degrees are making that much a warehouse driving a forklift...why not go the distance and make it count plus I have 4 kids I feel like I can support them much better on psychologist salary my s/o is very supportive but he is not the kids father...if anything ever happens with us I want to be ok on my own and he is allowing me to not work, go to school if I want , work if I want if I did not have him I wouldn't even be able to fathom ever doing PSYD program.

 

[LGist]

Many of these questions are going to be dependent on which programs you have in mind, but in general, doctoral study is a full time commitment. I'm curious about your goals for attending a Psy.D. program and whether they might be better met with a master's degree in either social work or counseling.

I am not worried about the full time commitment. I feel like the salary of a psychologist is better met for me if that makes sense. I just wanted know like a typical day am I going to be at school till 8 o clock a night? Or can I get home at least by 6 or 7? My concern is the closest universities are all an hour away ...

 

[PsyDuck90]

A quality PsyD program will require just as much flexibility and work commitment as a balanced PhD program. For instance, I graduated from a small cohort PsyD program based in a state university: we took approximately 9-12 credits of coursework every semester, had a 10-20 hour per week lab requirement depending on the lab you were in, and 16-20 hours a week of practicum starting our second year. On top of that, most people had a GAship or TAship, which took another 10-20 hours a week (if you were lucky, your GA was with your lab so you could kind of double dip on the hours). There were many days I got on campus at around 8am and left around 8pm. We had someone in our cohort with children and A LOT of family and financial support. She opted out of the funding opportunities for the GA/TA and also took an extra year.

Even if you do not need to move for your grad program (because there is no guarantee you get into the program an hour from you (unless you are a good fit or it’s one of those diploma mill programs that take anyone with a pulse and willingness to sign up for a quarter million dollars in student loan debt), you may have to move to match for internship. The salary difference honestly goes away once you factor in the astronomical levels of debt of some PsyD programs/the amount of time it takes to get licensed (5-6 years of grad school, including internship), plus most states require some postdoc supervision hours and it takes time to study for and pass the national licensing exam (EPPP). So all in, you are looking at 6-7 years before you are able to independently practice, which is much longer than a master’s level clinician.

Also, if you decide to do private practice (you haven’t stated what your specific goals are), your degree doesn’t necessarily make a difference in what you can charge for cash pay. Plenty of masters level folks charge as much or more than doctoral level providers for cash pay private practice if they develop a niche.

 

[LGist]

A quality PsyD program will require just as much flexibility and work commitment as a balanced PhD program. For instance, I graduated from a small cohort PsyD program based in a state university: we took approximately 9-12 credits of coursework every semester, had a 10-20 hour per week lab requirement depending on the lab you were in, and 16-20 hours a week of practicum starting our second year. On top of that, most people had a GAship or TAship, which took another 10-20 hours a week (if you were lucky, your GA was with your lab so you could kind of double dip on the hours). There were many days I got on campus at around 8am and left around 8pm. We had someone in our cohort with children and A LOT of family and financial support. She opted out of the funding opportunities for the GA/TA and also took an extra year.

Even if you do not need to move for your grad program (because there is no guarantee you get into the program an hour from you (unless you are a good fit or it’s one of those diploma mill programs that take anyone with a pulse and willingness to sign up for a quarter million dollars in student loan debt), you may have to move to match for internship. The salary difference honestly goes away once you factor in the astronomical levels of debt of some PsyD programs/the amount of time it takes to get licensed (5-6 years of grad school, including internship), plus most states require some postdoc supervision hours and it takes time to study for and pass the national licensing exam (EPPP). So all in, you are looking at 6-7 years before you are able to independently practice, which is much longer than a master’s level clinician.

Also, if you decide to do private practice (you haven’t stated what your specific goals are), your degree doesn’t necessarily make a difference in what you can charge for cash pay. Plenty of masters level folks charge as much or more than doctoral level providers for cash pay private practice if they develop a niche.

Thank you this answer was very insightful, I was thinking of a private practice and there is a university in my town that offers a master's mental health counseling to know that if I did a private practice I could make just as much as someone with a PSYD maybe I will take the easier way that takes less time. I have niche an mind and I think it could be very profitable.

 

[R. Matey]

I am not worried about the full time commitment. I feel like the salary of a psychologist is better met for me if that makes sense. I just wanted know like a typical day am I going to be at school till 8 o clock a night? Or can I get home at least by 6 or 7? My concern is the closest universities are all an hour away ...

It does, though I encourage you to weigh your expenses against your potential income. Many Psy.D. programs are unfunded and expensive meaning whatever gain in earning potential you may have over a master's level clinician might be washed away by a hefty student loan payment. By contrast, many master's level programs can be part-time, have comparatively fewer costs, and have decent opportunities (historically more true for social work than counseling) so I think it's worth a serious look. If we're discussing a funded Psy.D. program, then I suggest reading @PsyDr's post very carefully.

As to the second part of your question, you will likely need to check with faculty of any prospective program for course times and other corresponding evening commitments. Even in an unfunded program, it is not uncommon for there to be extracurricular requirements intended to advance a person's career. So while I won't go so far to say that it is impossible task to manage a family and attend a full-time program, it will likely be a difficult one.

 

[PsyDr]

In my third year prac, I LIVED for Thursday because the resident lunch at the AMC was always a magnificent spread.

"Oh, is this "urology"? I thought they said "psychology". Good lunch though. Gotta go."

I am not worried about the full time commitment. I feel like the salary of a psychologist is better met for me if that makes sense. I just wanted know like a typical day am I going to be at school till 8 o clock a night? Or can I get home at least by 6 or 7? My concern is the closest universities are all an hour away ...

Thank you this answer was very insightful, I was thinking of a private practice and there is a university in my town that offers a master's mental health counseling to know that if I did a private practice I could make just as much as someone with a PSYD maybe I will take the easier way that takes less time. I have niche an mind and I think it could be very profitable.

1) IIRC, one of my practica supervision classes ended at 9PM. No idea if that is abnormal. Some of my more unusual education started at 6AM.

2) You should think about the lifestyle of psychology. I would encourage you to think about WHEN people want therapy. Hint: it's before work, after work, and during lunch breaks.

3) If you want to make real money, mental health isn't it. You can check with your state laws, to see if you can employ a psychologist.

 

[LGist]

"Oh, is this "urology"? I thought they said "psychology". Good lunch though. Gotta go."



1) IIRC, one of my practica supervision classes ended at 9PM. No idea if that is abnormal. Some of my more unusual education started at 6AM.

2) You should think about the lifestyle of psychology. I would encourage you to think about WHEN people want therapy. Hint: it's before work, after work, and during lunch breaks.

3) If you want to make real money, mental health isn't it. You can check with your state laws, to see if you can employ a psychologist.

Thank you for your honest opinion I do want to go where the money is at

 

[LGist]

For all but the most predatory diploma mills, it's going to be an extremely difficult road as I assume you are geographically restricted?

Well I would to be close of course but my s/o said he would pick the kids up from school and drop them off. So I could go maybe 2 more hours out but that's it

 

[Doctor Eliza]

"Oh, is this "urology"? I thought they said "psychology". Good lunch though. Gotta go."



1) IIRC, one of my practica supervision classes ended at 9PM. No idea if that is abnormal. Some of my more unusual education started at 6AM.

2) You should think about the lifestyle of psychology. I would encourage you to think about WHEN people want therapy. Hint: it's before work, after work, and during lunch breaks.

3) If you want to make real money, mental health isn't it. You can check with your state laws, to see if you can employ a psychologist.

Point number two is a good point. I am coming from a different set of life experiences, as I was fully licensed before having my only child. Owning my solo practice and balancing that with being a mom is often a struggle. What PsyDr says is absolutely true: the busy hours in private practice are when the kids are home from school. Work-life balance is tough and something I have to continually work on. Admittedly, it is a lot easier when you only have one child. I imagine having multiple children makes it even harder.

I don’t want to discourage you from obtaining a graduate education. However, I also don’t want you to romanticize being a psychologist in private practice. If you decide to go this route, go in with your eyes open.

 

[psych.meout]

This. Except there's a pharma rep in the room that will talk to anyone that will listen. Then I show them my student badge and almost immediately they pretend I don't exist. That way I can grab the food and get outta there real quick

I think it was my second year in grad school and everyone in my lab was presenting at a big international conference in our specialty area.

There was an industry recruiter who was formerly a physician and had zero idea what grad school was like. She kept on trying to recruit us as if we were post docs.

I want to be a psychologist rather than a licensed counselor which I know is the easiest shortest route but the pay difference I do have a passion for both but the pay. I feel like being a licensed counselor and only making 60k a year maybe less not sure more maybe is not worth it because some people with no degrees are making that much a warehouse driving a forklift...why not go the distance and make it count plus I have 4 kids I feel like I can support them much better on psychologist salary my s/o is very supportive but he is not the kids father...if anything ever happens with us I want to be ok on my own and he is allowing me to not work, go to school if I want , work if I want if I did not have him I wouldn't even be able to fathom ever doing PSYD program.

As someone who previously worked in a warehouse, those jobs are wildly different than being a counselor. E.g., you could potentially do tele-therapy from home. Not sure what the earnings are being forklift certified at home, but it does sound fun.

"Oh, is this "urology"? I thought they said "psychology". Good lunch though. Gotta go."



1) IIRC, one of my practica supervision classes ended at 9PM. No idea if that is abnormal. Some of my more unusual education started at 6AM.

2) You should think about the lifestyle of psychology. I would encourage you to think about WHEN people want therapy. Hint: it's before work, after work, and during lunch breaks.

3) If you want to make real money, mental health isn't it. You can check with your state laws, to see if you can employ a psychologist.

Agreed and honestly part of the appeal for me, especially the lunch hour and after work appts.

 

[WisNeuro]

Well I would to be close of course but my s/o said he would pick the kids up from school and drop them off. So I could go maybe 2 more hours out but that's it

Considering many people move a good distance for either grad school, internship, or postdoc (or multiple times during the process), this doesn't bode well. As others have mentioned, I'd consider the midlevel options if big moves are off the table.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

If salary is a primary consideration and you want to be in healthcare, I'd say that nursing is probably the best "bang for the buck" out there. If an RN's pay isn't enough, you can go the NP route. It's a shorter pathway than psych grad school and will likely require little if any relocation. You probably won't get much therapy training as a psych NP, but you'll still technically be able to provide it if you want (whether or not you've had decent training). Pay is generally commensurate with psychologists as an NP, or higher in some settings, although there will probably be a push to work primarily as a prescriber unless you're in private practice.

 

[WisNeuro]

If salary is a primary consideration and you want to be in healthcare, I'd say that nursing is probably the best "bang for the buck" out there. If an RN's pay isn't enough, you can go the NP route. It's a shorter pathway than psych grad school and will likely require little if any relocation. You probably won't get much therapy training as a psych NP, but you'll still technically be able to provide it if you want (whether or not you've had decent training). Pay is generally commensurate with psychologists as an NP, or higher in some settings, although there will probably be a push to work primarily as a prescriber unless you're in private practice.

While I agree from a pragmatic perspective, from my personal experience working with them, I will never see a Psych NP for my own healthcare. Diagnostic skills were atrocious, and they struggled to grasp fairly basic concepts in psych. The only DID diagnoses I've had come through my clinic were diagnosed by psych NPs, and these people were nowhere close to a DID dx.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Second the nursing rec if you're just wanting the quickest path to make some cash in healthcare. I make significantly more than nurses and NP's, but just hear me out. My ex gf was four years younger than me. She started nursing school my first year of grad school. She started making an actual living wage 2 years later. When did i start making actual money? 7 years later. And by that time she had been making a decent living ever year. Plus she didn't have to move three times to different states. Now that being said...her job is way harder and more stressful than mine ever could be (outside of having to deal with psychopathic patients).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

While I agree from a pragmatic perspective, from my personal experience working with them, I will never see a Psych NP for my own healthcare. Diagnostic skills were atrocious, and they struggled to grasp fairly basic concepts in psych. The only DID diagnoses I've had come through my clinic were diagnosed by psych NPs, and these people were nowhere close to a DID dx.

Yeah, I don't disagree in general. As you've said, just looking at it from an entirely pragmatic perspective.

 

[psycho1391]

I feel like the salary of a psychologist is better met for me if that makes sense

So you're getting a doctorate for the salary? That seems kind of disgusting to me.

Salary is not a reason to chose a doctorate over a master's. And once you balance the amount of loans you need to take out in a PsyD program, loss of full time income as you will likely not have time to work, and the amount of time,its not worth it.

Agree with above. Master's and a private practice.

 

[WisNeuro]

So you're getting a doctorate for the salary? That seems kind of disgusting to me.

Salary is not a reason to chose a doctorate over a master's. And once you balance the amount of loans you need to take out in a PsyD program, loss of full time income as you will likely not have time to work, and the amount of time,its not worth it.

Agree with above. Master's and a private practice.

Why? Is there a problem with choosing a degree/credential with a much higher ceiling of income? Particularly if it's an area of interest for someone? I may have missed where we were supposed to take our vows of asceticism upon entering the mental health field.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

So you're getting a doctorate for the salary? That seems kind of disgusting to me.

Salary is not a reason to chose a doctorate over a master's. And once you balance the amount of loans you need to take out in a PsyD program, loss of full time income as you will likely not have time to work, and the amount of time,its not worth it.

Agree with above. Master's and a private practice.

Also a good point = many/most Psy.D. programs are very expensive, and the loan payments need to be factored in when considering pay and opportunity cost.

I don't think considering salary is a bad thing or inappropriate; I wish more psychologists would place an importance on compensation. But going the doctoral program route primarily for the pay probably isn't the most efficient choice in that regard and could easily lead to career dissatisfaction.

 

[Sanman]

Well I would to be close of course but my s/o said he would pick the kids up from school and drop them off. So I could go maybe 2 more hours out but that's it

I'm going to be a bit blunt here. No one will care about your schedule or your personal responsibilities other than you and your husband. During grad school I had classes in the day and I had classes 7-9pm at night. The time was based on the schedule of the professor teaching the class. If they have a day job, you are going to class in the evening. There is no alternative for the class or picking something else. The same is true for practica and internship. If no one in your area specializes in what you want, you are traveling to them or relocating for internship and post-doc. You don't have to do these things, but then you really are not going to get the advantage of a doctorate anyway as you won't really be an expert in xyz. Can it be done? Sure, I know someone that got through my program and law school while raising 2 kids. I think she is the exception more than the rule though. Most of us were fully focused on our careers with no children and that is the way the program wants it. You spend a lot of time as cheap labor and you get training/education. It is a question of priorities for you at this moment in time and whether you need flexibility.

If you are not sure, go get the masters (I suggest an LCSW). The education is more family friendly and the credentials are more staged. So, you can work if you have your degree as a facility social worker but don't have your clinical hours to be a therapist yet and then go get your hours. A doctorate puts you on a clock. You have about 7-8 years (depends on the program) to complete all of your requirements including internship and dissertation. If you don't complete them, you are out.

 

[psycho1391]

Why? Is there a problem with choosing a degree/credential with a much higher ceiling of income? Particularly if it's an area of interest for someone?

When its the singular reason between choosing a doctorate versus a master's, it seems misguided. OP has stated that their reason for choosing a doctorate over a master's is income. That reason isn't very nuanced and doesn't communicate an understanding of doctoral level capabilities versus master's level.

 

[WisNeuro]

When its the singular reason between choosing a doctorate versus a master's, it seems misguided. OP has stated that their reason for choosing a doctorate over a master's is income. That reason isn't very nuanced and doesn't communicate an understanding of doctoral level capabilities versus master's level.

That would seem to argue more for a misinformed or ignorance of the field, rather than "disgust" that someone would like to be paid appropriately for their level of expertise, no?

 

[Sanman]

When its the singular reason between choosing a doctorate versus a master's, it seems misguided. OP has stated that their reason for choosing a doctorate over a master's is income. That reason isn't very nuanced and doesn't communicate an understanding of doctoral level capabilities versus master's level.

While I agree with what you have said, there are also seasons to life. Going for your highest income as an unencumbered 20 something is often expected and many are career focused at that point as there is little risk to relocating when you have no real skills or other responsibilities. Doing so in this situation is not fully weighing the risks and benefits of your other responsibilities.

 

[VirginiaIsForLovers]

If you're looking for the shortest amount of time and most financially lucrative, I would say go for your MSW and pursue your LCSW/LICSW if private practice is your end goal. From personal experience, I find that hospitals and other settings more often hire LCSW's over counselors or LMFT's. Also, I find that my social work peers often are the ones running our departments, over psyschologists.

If you think you'll like conducting assessments and neuropsych, although even a longer path (5 years doctoral program; 2 year postdoc), doctorate is the best option.

 

[biscuitsbiscuits]

I did it with two kids (small cohort, funded, university PsyD program). A few quick things:

You won't get home by 5pm. I got home at around 8pm most weeknights. A lot of the time, I sent my kids to school in the morning and didn't see them until they woke up the next day. I worked on weekends. You have to. It caused a lot of stress and I felt like I missed a lot of my kids' lives during this time. It's VERY hard.

In order to do this as a parent, you have to be extraordinarily organized and time efficient. You NEVER procrastinate because, as a parent, there is no guarantee of available time in the future. Wait until the day before your paper is due to work on it and I guarantee you your kids will have a snow day and your partner will be working all day. You do everything as early as possible. You will have a lot less time than your childless cohort-mates. You have to be in beast mode the entire time or you will fall behind. You also have to effectively manage your stress while you are parenting.

@Sanman said earlier that no one will care about your schedule and personal responsibilities and I also found that to be true. The program is not going to adjust around you, you need to adjust around your program. Same for kids, right? Your academic schedule will be unpredictable and you won't have flexibility. Having children is also unpredictable, also without a lot of flexibility. Put those two together and it's extremely stressful.

In addition to scheduled classes, practica, etc., my program had a number of "required" events that were often scheduled with short notice. E.g., "All second year students must attend this two-hour training next week" and it would be on a day I hadn't even planned to be at the university, offered only once, and an absolute requirement. It's very hard to plan ahead, you're essentially on call for your program.

You will need A LOT of flexible, reliable childcare. Childcare is expensive and unless your partner is a full-time stay-at-home parent, you'll probably need to tack on childcare costs to the overall cost of your education. I was fully funded and took out student loans to cover additional childcare.

This sustains for a minimum of 5 years. It's hard. I gave it a lot of thought before starting the program and there were still a lot of challenges I didn't predict.

I don't regret it. I am passionate about the work and truly enjoyed life as a grad student (minus the parenting stressors), which motivated me through the process. I loved research, I loved writing my dissertation, I loved the lectures, I loved learning and challenging myself. I do pretty well in high pressure settings. It helped that those things were reinforcing to me (they are not to everyone). Now that I'm done, I have a lot of flexibility and spend a ton of time with my family. I love what I do and I love my current life balance, but it was a long road to get here. You just need to think ahead and make sure you are prepared for the realities of this path.

 

[quickpsych]

1) IIRC, one of my practica supervision classes ended at 9PM. No idea if that is abnormal. Some of my more unusual education started at 6AM.

This was my experience as well. Had at least one practica 2 days a week and was required to be there by around 7:15am and was usually there until 5pm or so. And had some courses/classes that were 6-9pm. Some days had more going on then others.

I knew a few people in the program who had children, most of them had one kid but the majority of the students were either right out of undergrad or had worked a few years after a masters and went back to school in their late 20s/early 30s.

 

[LGist]

I'm going to be a bit blunt here. No one will care about your schedule or your personal responsibilities other than you and your husband. During grad school I had classes in the day and I had classes 7-9pm at night. The time was based on the schedule of the professor teaching the class. If they have a day job, you are going to class in the evening. There is no alternative for the class or picking something else. The same is true for practica and internship. If no one in your area specializes in what you want, you are traveling to them or relocating for internship and post-doc. You don't have to do these things, but then you really are not going to get the advantage of a doctorate anyway as you won't really be an expert in xyz. Can it be done? Sure, I know someone that got through my program and law school while raising 2 kids. I think she is the exception more than the rule though. Most of us were fully focused on our careers with no children and that is the way the program wants it. You spend a lot of time as cheap labor and you get training/education. It is a question of priorities for you at this moment in time and whether you need flexibility.

If you are not sure, go get the masters (I suggest an LCSW). The education is more family friendly and the credentials are more staged. So, you can work if you have your degree as a facility social worker but don't have your clinical hours to be a therapist yet and then go get your hours. A doctorate puts you on a clock. You have about 7-8 years (depends on the program) to complete all of your requirements including internship and dissertation. If you don't complete them, you are out.

Thank but a licensed mental health counselor salary will not be enough for me and my 4 kids. I'm determined to do it

While I agree with what you have said, there are also seasons to life. Going for your highest income as an unencumbered 20 something is often expected and many are career focused at that point as there is little risk to relocating when you have no real skills or other responsibilities. Doing so in this situation is not fully weighing the risks and benefits of your other responsibilities.

I did it with two kids (small cohort, funded, university PsyD program). A few quick things:

You won't get home by 5pm. I got home at around 8pm most weeknights. A lot of the time, I sent my kids to school in the morning and didn't see them until they woke up the next day. I worked on weekends. You have to. It caused a lot of stress and I felt like I missed a lot of my kids' lives during this time. It's VERY hard.

In order to do this as a parent, you have to be extraordinarily organized and time efficient. You NEVER procrastinate because, as a parent, there is no guarantee of available time in the future. Wait until the day before your paper is due to work on it and I guarantee you your kids will have a snow day and your partner will be working all day. You do everything as early as possible. You will have a lot less time than your childless cohort-mates. You have to be in beast mode the entire time or you will fall behind. You also have to effectively manage your stress while you are parenting.

@Sanman said earlier that no one will care about your schedule and personal responsibilities and I also found that to be true. The program is not going to adjust around you, you need to adjust around your program. Same for kids, right? Your academic schedule will be unpredictable and you won't have flexibility. Having children is also unpredictable, also without a lot of flexibility. Put those two together and it's extremely stressful.

In addition to scheduled classes, practica, etc., my program had a number of "required" events that were often scheduled with short notice. E.g., "All second year students must attend this two-hour training next week" and it would be on a day I hadn't even planned to be at the university, offered only once, and an absolute requirement. It's very hard to plan ahead, you're essentially on call for your program.

You will need A LOT of flexible, reliable childcare. Childcare is expensive and unless your partner is a full-time stay-at-home parent, you'll probably need to tack on childcare costs to the overall cost of your education. I was fully funded and took out student loans to cover additional childcare.

This sustains for a minimum of 5 years. It's hard. I gave it a lot of thought before starting the program and there were still a lot of challenges I didn't predict.

I don't regret it. I am passionate about the work and truly enjoyed life as a grad student (minus the parenting stressors), which motivated me through the process. I loved research, I loved writing my dissertation, I loved the lectures, I loved learning and challenging myself. I do pretty well in high pressure settings. It helped that those things were reinforcing to me (they are not to everyone). Now that I'm done, I have a lot of flexibility and spend a ton of time with my family. I love what I do and I love my current life balance, but it was a long road to get here. You just need to think ahead and make sure you are prepared for the realities of this path.

Thank you so much I am glad to hear from someone who has done it. I have thought out all aspects and I do have child care set up and my S/O said he would drop off and pick up the kids. Question can you go in more detail about how you handled child care? My biggest fear is just not having anybody to watch them or the daycare is closed a day I didn't expect. Because that is all I have is daycare and my S/O no other back ups.

But I do have passion for this profession! And I'm ready to go into beat mode. And another big take away you mentioned was work on everything early...to always be ahead of the game because of those unexpected issues.

Also did you ever have to sit home with the kids because of a snow day if so how did you handle that?

 

[EnPsychlopedia]

Thank but a licensed mental health counselor salary will not be enough for me and my 4 kids. I'm determined to do it

If LMHC salary isn't enough for you and your kids, imagine not getting paid for the next 5-7 years at all because you're in an unfunded PsyD program for which you are going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt. Now consider what you think an LMHC's average salary is and add maybe 20% more onto that and subtract 4 digits of income per month just to pay off student loans. I don't want to crush your dreams, but if you cannot imagine living off of an LMHC salary 3 years from now, how will you be living off of no salary three years from now? Five years from now? And then minimally more than LMHC salary 7 years from now?

Also, I feel this thread has thus far understated just how important geographical flexibility is in this process. Say you manage to get accepted to a program near enough to your current location...what about internship later? That's a match process that may have you placed clear across the country. What about post-doc, if the state you want to be licensed in requires one? Those are not positions one just casually finds all around them (unless you live in a major metro area). What if none of the programs near you offer training opportunities that match your experience and interests?

OP, I wish you the best, but I implore you to more deeply consider the logistics of the sort situation you're proposing and if they are even remotely realistic.

 

[psyduckies]

If LMHC salary isn't enough for you and your kids, imagine not getting paid for the next 5-7 years at all because you're in an unfunded PsyD program for which you are going hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt. Now consider what you think an LMHC's average salary is and add maybe 20% more onto that and subtract 4 digits of income per month just to pay off student loans. I don't want to crush your dreams, but if you cannot imagine living off of an LMHC salary 3 years from now, how will you be living off of no salary three years from now? Five years from now? And then minimally more than LMHC salary 7 years from now?

Also, I feel this thread has thus far understated just how important geographical flexibility is in this process. Say you manage to get accepted to a program near enough to current location...what about internship later? That's a match process that may have you placed clear across the country. What about post-doc, if the state you want to be licensed in requires one? Those are not positions one just casually finds all around them (unless you live in a major metro area). What if none of the programs near you offer training opportunities that match your experience and interests?

OP, I wish you the best, but I implore you to more deeply consider the logistics of the sort situation you're proposing and if they are even remotely realistic.

I have a close friend from another graduate program who had VERY similar feelings. I cannot go to X practicum because it is too far away (granted- she was pregnant her 3rd year of the program, had a new born the year applying internship, and then a 1 year old while on internship). She would choose practicums based on their hours and how little she had to work/how close they were to her house. When it came to internship time she was SIGNIFICANTLY behind where she needed to be to be competitive for internships. We all encouraged her to take another year, as she wanted to stay in state in our very competitive metro area (AKA a place A LOT of people want to move for internship- most of our sites in this area get 150-200+ applications for 1-2 positions). She chose not to and ended up with one interview for phase one, none for phase two, and then matching in the post vacancy match. Problem is- she had to move out of state (approximately 4 hours from current location). The when it came time to postdoc she moved back to our state- but again is about 2 hours from her family and where she wanted to be. She also went to a self pay PsyD program and is approximately 200k in student loan debt (which is about commiserate with what most of my peers from self pay PsyD have in our area- granted we do live in a HCOL area so the extra loans taken out for living are higher.) so you’re looking at about 1200 at minimum if you pay back your loans in the typical 10 year span- starting postdoc year… when again you’re making typically 50-80k (depending on location and area of practice. Most I saw in my HCOL area were about 60-70k when I applied last year). No one is here to crush your dreams, but here to provide information you may not have thought of or realized in the logistics of those dreams.

I will also tell you what one of my grad professors told me (he was a straight up brutal man, but his advice was always solid). He sat my cohort of 12 around a table our first week and asked how many of us were in long term relationships when we stated the program. He told us then to expect up to half of us to not have those relationships by the end of the program- just based on the grueling nature of graduate school. I watched it happen to my peers, I watched it happen to younger and older cohorts while in my program, and I watched it happen to peers in other programs. Five years is a long time to ask someone to hold the fort down- even the most incredible partners in the world are going to be tired and overwhelmed by the end of it. You have to really make sure they understand what they’re signing up for too- especially if that person is such a big piece of your equation to being able to complete this journey. I would hate for that leg to be cut off from your table and then you are really really stuck. All things to think about. Is it doable? Sure. If you’re really determined it can be doable. I’m just not sure it will be everything you think it’ll look like when you finished

 

[WisNeuro]

I will also tell you what one of my grad professors told me (he was a straight up brutal man, but his advice was always solid). He sat my cohort of 12 around a table our first week and asked how many of us were in long term relationships when we stated the program. He told us then to expect up to half of us to not have those relationships by the end of the program- just based on the grueling nature of graduate school. I watched it happen to my peers, I watched it happen to younger and older cohorts while in my program, and I watched it happen to peers in other programs. Five years is a long time to ask someone to hold the fort down- even the most incredible partners in the world are going to be tired and overwhelmed by the end of it. You have to really make sure they understand what they’re signing up for too- especially if that person is such a big piece of your equation to being able to complete this journey. I would hate for that leg to be cut off from your table and then you are really really stuck. All things to think about. Is it doable? Sure. If you’re really determined it can be doable. I’m just not sure it will be everything you think it’ll look like when you finished

Hmm, I'd love to see any actual numbers around this. Out of the people who were married, or in LT relationships in my cohort and surrounding cohorts, I only recall one non-married couple break up. All of the married people are still married (we just had a zoom reunion two weeks ago) and the LT relationships ended up getting married during or shortly after grad school.

 

[psycho1391]

Thank but a licensed mental health counselor salary will not be enough for me and my 4 kids. I'm determined to do it

So lets use this as an example.

$82,000 is the average salary of a licensed professional counselor in Missouri (which is a v. low cost of living state). When I started at my current VA in 2023 at a GS 12 I was making $89,000. A GS-13 in this region makes 105,896. My student loan payments are $800+ a month.


Now, prior to completing my PhD, I did a terminal master's program. My debt from that program since I had a graduate assistantship (I paid $0 in tuition) for those two years was $5000 for fees and living expenses. If I would have just kept my master's and worked in Missouri like I currently am, I think I would be in pretty good shape ($25,000) in debt from both undergrad and grad school isn't too shabby.


So, I implore you to really examine the financial benefits in your region/what kind of work you want to do.

 

[R. Matey]

Hmm, I'd love to see any actual numbers around this. Out of the people who were married, or in LT relationships in my cohort and surrounding cohorts, I only recall one non-married couple break up. All of the married people are still married (we just had a zoom reunion two weeks ago) and the LT relationships ended up getting married during or shortly after grad school.

That person was probably harkening back to the old timey joke Ph.D. = Probably Headed for Divorce that's likely more related to men and their academic careers during the mid-20th Century rather than having any bearing on clinician careers today. I was married before, during, and after graduate school to the same person. It's all about communicating expectations and prioritizing your partner. Yes, it might mean you miss happy hour with your cohort every now and then, but it is more than doable.

 

[WisNeuro]

That person was probably harkening back to the old timey joke Ph.D. = Probably Headed for Divorce that's likely more related to men and their academic careers during the mid-20th Century rather than having any bearing on clinician careers today. I was married before, during, and after graduate school to the same person. It's all about communicating expectations and prioritizing your partner. Yes, it might mean you miss happy hour with your cohort every now and then, but it is more than doable.

In two of the cases, the spouses were grad students in other departments. One was actually one of better friends in grad school, so they simply came out to happy hour as well!

 

[cara susanna]

Hmm, I'd love to see any actual numbers around this. Out of the people who were married, or in LT relationships in my cohort and surrounding cohorts, I only recall one non-married couple break up. All of the married people are still married (we just had a zoom reunion two weeks ago) and the LT relationships ended up getting married during or shortly after grad school.

Ditto, and I actually met my husband (and got engaged/married to him) during grad school.

 

[WisNeuro]

Ditto, and I actually met my husband (and got engaged/married to him) during grad school.

It'd be cool to see the data broken out by program variables (PhD vs. PsyD, R1 research focus vs. clinical/balanced, counseling/clinical) to see if there are any meaningful associations. Or, if the rates relationship ending is any different than the general background numbers and if this is all just conformation bias in some contexts.

 

[psyduckies]

Hmm, I'd love to see any actual numbers around this. Out of the people who were married, or in LT relationships in my cohort and surrounding cohorts, I only recall one non-married couple break up. All of the married people are still married (we just had a zoom reunion two weeks ago) and the LT relationships ended up getting married during or shortly after grad school.

I also be curious about generationally/geographically (as someone who is in their mid 20s who sees a lot of the immediately “drop them” culture if there is a disagreement). Compared to when I lived in rural “Bible belt” Midwest and there was a sentiment of you marry young and never break up no matter what

It'd be cool to see the data broken out by program variables (PhD vs. PsyD, R1 research focus vs. clinical/balanced, counseling/clinical) to see if there are any meaningful associations. Or, if the rates relationship ending is any different than the general background numbers and if this is all just conformation bias in some contexts.

I think this is also huge- I know that a lot of our cohort members that did stay together had been together longer, had moved together from out of state, etc. Some of the ones who didn’t were just about at the 1 year mark and when it got time to internship and moving time it didn’t go well or first year when we had some of the heaviest workload content wise. I’d be curious data if there is relation to year in program as well.

 

[psyduckies]

Ditto, and I actually met my husband (and got engaged/married to him) during grad school.

In the flip side the four of my cohort members that did break up did end up finding current long term partners- 2 of which are now engaged! I definitely think he did it to strike fear in us and mess with us- very on brand for him. However, there was A LOT of conversations with my long term partner (10 years last month) throughout grad school to ensure our relationship was okay. It can be heavy work that we do and hard for others to understand why we need to decompress at times after work (I did a year working with CSEC and doing intensive trauma work with them- there were definitely days where I did not want to be the shoulder to cry on-his words- about how the work day was hard because the AC was broken so your office was only 73 🤪). I think that can be something people forget about our work when they go in- it’s heavy. It can be a lot of work (especially early on when you’ve never had to do it before potentially) to do therapy (or even assessment sometimes!) and not take it home with you/cope with the heavier days. It is not just about what we can get paid- because we could probably find a way to make a ton of money in a much less emotionally taxing job (or physically- I’m looking at you my kids who are elopers who could beat some olympians 😂)

 

[PsyDr]

So, the "healthy relationship" crowd is just going ignoring the time honored tradition of "Labcest"?

Asking for a friend.

 

[WisNeuro]

So, the "healthy relationship" crowd is just going ignoring the time honored tradition of "Labcest"?

Asking for a friend.

That happened in my program, but it was fairly rare. If anything, it was more undergrads in labs hooking up with other undergrads. I briefly dated someone in another cohort, in another lab, but that was as close as I got.

 

[Sanman]

So lets use this as an example.

$82,000 is the average salary of a licensed professional counselor in Missouri (which is a v. low cost of living state). When I started at my current VA in 2023 at a GS 12 I was making $89,000. A GS-13 in this region makes 105,896. My student loan payments are $800+ a month.


Now, prior to completing my PhD, I did a terminal master's program. My debt from that program since I had a graduate assistantship (I paid $0 in tuition) for those two years was $5000 for fees and living expenses. If I would have just kept my master's and worked in Missouri like I currently am, I think I would be in pretty good shape ($25,000) in debt from both undergrad and grad school isn't too shabby.


So, I implore you to really examine the financial benefits in your region/what kind of work you want to do.

To add to this. LPC and SW jobs at the VA range from GS-9 to GS-12 generally. So, about $59k-89k. And I even saw an LPC manager position at GS-13. Most are GS-11 to 12, so $70-80k.

 

[Sanman]

That happened in my program, but it was fairly rare. If anything, it was more undergrads in labs hooking up with other undergrads. I briefly dated someone in another cohort, in another lab, but that was as close as I got.

This happened in my program. It was not particularly rare as grad students are a small group and the singles are an even smaller group. Of the married folks, I think half are still married to each other and half are divorced and remarried.