PsyD program? career guidance for a lost lamb

[Kayceekay]

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I need some advice fairly specific to my situation about PsyD programs. I have a low GPA - 3.2, that declined from a 4.0 my first two years. (Though my Psych GPA is over 3.5) I also flunked out of Law School. However, I have a few years of experience in counseling and working in a mental hospital. I would like a course of study that would result in a career that involves daily patient/client interaction. I would love to work on a PET team or to become a private practice therapist.

On the forums I've read that I should get Masters first because my GPA is so Low. What kind of Masters should I get? Many MA/Ss in counseling are through Ed programs. Is that a bad thing? What am I looking for?

I feel very lost and overwhelmed by what I have read on the forums.

 

[psychRA]

The downside is you need to pay for it, but I think given your stats you will likely be paying for whatever PsyD programs you can get into, and that the PsyD would be unnecessary.

I'd be careful about making such a strong assumption based only on the OP's GPA.
I got into 5-6 fully funded clinical PhD programs with a 3.3 GPA.

My application was offset by a strong GRE and a couple of productive years as an RA. We don't have the whole picture for the OP, but if the rest of his/her application is strong, a partially or fully funded PsyD isn't out of the question, especially if the OP isn't required to submit law school transcripts.

To the OP: I'm not saying that PsyD is necessarily the route you want, but I wanted to make it clear that your GPA alone doesn't mean that you have no shot at a good program.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'd be careful about making such a strong assumption based only on the OP's GPA.
I got into 5-6 fully funded clinical PhD programs with a 3.3 GPA.

My application was offset by a strong GRE and a couple of productive years as an RA. We don't have the whole picture for the OP, but if the rest of his/her application is strong, a partially or fully funded PsyD isn't out of the question, especially if the OP isn't required to submit law school transcripts.

To the OP: I'm not saying that PsyD is necessarily the route you want, but I wanted to make it clear that your GPA alone doesn't mean that you have no shot at a good program.

I would agree. GPA matters much less with psych PhD admissions than it does for many other grad-level degrees (e.g., med school and law school). Is a 2.5 going to be a barrier? Certainly, but if you're above 3.0 and have a strong (1300+) GRE, then a big part of how you do admissions-wise is going to come down to research experience and match with the program (and if you happen to have a reference/letter writer who knows someone at the programs to which you're applying).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I hope you are right, although in researching professional programs my observations thus far have seemed to indicate that funded psych programs do emphasize high GPA relatively strongly.

It's going to vary by program, to be sure. Upper-tier funded programs (such as many of the clinical science programs) might toss you if you're sitting at less than a 3.5. But the average GPA at most of the programs to which I applied way back when, for example (all balanced, funded PhD), was around 3.5. I myself had a 3.4 and somehow landed a few interview offers and an acceptance (and that with only ~1.5 years of research experience in two labs with no pubs or presentations, so I'm certainly an outlier).

My guess is that because essentially no one cares about GPA in grad school (unlike med school, where your grades do actually matter), that mindset tends to trickle down somewhat to adcoms and POIs. Not entirely, of course, as GPA is still going get factored into the decision, and a 3.9 is certainly going to catch more attention than a 3.2 or 3.3.

But if you have an interesting personal statement, strong letters of recommendation, solid research experience, a good fit with the program (or, as was the case for me, a benevolent advisor), and you interview well, you've certainly got a shot even with a relatively "low" GPA.

 

[Ollie123]

I think that (generally speaking) it boils down to the notion that a low GPA CAN hurt you, but a high GPA won't help that much. Even at top programs, a 3.5 vs a 4.0 is probably not going to be viewed that differently. No one gets into a program (well, a non-FSPS) because they had a high GPA. I suspect at many of the programs with a very high mean GPA for entering students, its a correlate and not causation. In other words, students with very high GPAs are also generally those who are intelligent and hard workers - I'd wager GPA is correlated pretty highly with other things schools look for. At least here, the students scraping by with a 3.0 generally were not the ones getting tons of research experience, etc..

In other words, you definitely want to get that GPA up to around 3.5 if you can, but beyond that it is not NEARLY as big a deal as many seem to think. Even without doing so, I think you'd only be completely sunk with below a 3.0 - anything else and I think a few years of work experience and possibly a master's degree can mitigate the harm from a low UG GPA.

 

[psychRA]

There still is correlation with UGPA and PhD GPA, but it is significantly less than correlation of GRE with PhD program performance measures (and even that is a limited correlation).

Which study was this?

 

[Kayceekay]

Not sure what happened to all of psychcyclepsi comments, They certainly represented a dark but perhaps realistic perspective.

It's been five years since I completed my undergrad. Does it make sense to spend a year taking undergraduate classes to raise my GPA or should I focus on getting more psych experience in that same amount of time? Do I need to take the Psych GRE?

 

[roubs]

Not sure what happened to all of psychcyclepsi comments, They certainly represented a dark but perhaps realistic perspective.

It's been five years since I completed my undergrad. Does it make sense to spend a year taking undergraduate classes to raise my GPA or should I focus on getting more psych experience in that same amount of time? Do I need to take the Psych GRE?

What kind of Psy.D. program do you want? Are you applying to the few that have partial or full funding or are you ready to go full Argosy? For FSPS like Argosy and Alliant, your current stats are likely enough to get you in considering they just want to take huge sums of money from you in return for their subpar educational experience (and by subpar, I refer to their inability to get their students placed into APA accredited internships)

 

[phillips101]

I think that rather than making baseless conjectures on whether the OP can get into ANY PsyD programs based on 3 numbers, why not let him/her decide for themself by looking at the schools' websites?

For your GPA, just take a look at some PsyD programs' average accepted GPA (if they give the range/quartiles, even better). If you apply to a school whose avg GPA is 3.8 (which is true for a lot of doctoral level programs), than maybe your 3.2 needs some reassessment.

With that said, however, GPA is not everything. I don't even know why everyone on here always mentions their "psych GPA", because none of the schools I applied to even asked for it, and I am certain admissions don't have the leisure to sit there and calculate your psych GPA and compare it to your overall GPA. What they do ask for is your jr/sr year GPA, and they do look at the trend (I've heard). Your numbers are not damning, but your trend is going to work against you. You have a negative, downward trend & you dropped out of a graduate-level program & don't seem to have any research experience. All programs (that I applied to) asked for undergraduate and graduate GPA and you are required to report your grades for all institutions you've attended. I would assume this includes your law-school stint. If you don't have a good reason for why you dropped out, why would the school take the same risk on you when they have hundreds of other applicants drooling to get in?

As far as getting a masters, I'm not an expert on this, and I am only an applicant myself. However, I have heard you should get a masters if 1) you need research experience and 2) have a low UG GPA. I've even heard that having a masters can "hurt" you...but have no idea what that means. Also you have to consider that a masters is very costly.

On top of that, you still have 90% of your application that you have not accounted for other than your GPA: clinical experience, research experience, volunteering experience, skills (i.e. computer programs, etc), networking, GRE, psych GRE, your essays and who knows what else people need to get in nowadays. I would suggest reading over old threads until you have a better idea of what you want to do for the next 2 years or so, then decide. There is a wealth of info online and esp in forums like these, but there is also a lot of bulls*** you have to wade through. Good luck!

Edit: I just wanted to add that I was in a similar situation as yours several years ago. I decided to not pursue a career path that I was set on since college, but knew nothing about the field of psychology or clinical psych. I didn't even realize there was a PsyD degree (so you're ahead of me on that one). I obsessively combed through forums and threads and everything else I could find online and in books to understand the program better and to see where I stand. Couple years later, I'm applying to top programs (I haven't gotten in though, so maybe this is for nothing) with a CV that's a couple pages longer than it was before. It's doable, you just need to sit back and research and figure it all out for yourself.

 

[roubs]

It isn't baseless conjecture that having a 3.0+ GPA is sufficient for many FSPS Psy.D. programs. Also, how does pointing that out preclude the OP deciding for themselves by looking at their websites? I miss where I suggested they hand over the keys to their process to anyone else.

If you want a FSPS and are concerned with a 3.2, I think it makes more sense to apply anyway and see what happens as opposed to spending $50,000+ on a Master's degree that may not fully transfer to a Psy.D. later. That advice would obviously be different if one wanted to apply to very competitive programs.

 

[Kayceekay]

The PsyD degree mills do have a certain interest to me. My goal is to work in an acute Psych setting (PET maybe?)or with Veterans and their families. If I'm willing to make a military commitment does it matter that my degree came from Argosy or Alliant?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

The PsyD degree mills do have a certain interest to me. My goal is to work in an acute Psych setting (PET maybe?)or with Veterans and their families. If I'm willing to make a military commitment does it matter that my degree came from Argosy or Alliant?

Markp and other members will be able to speak to the military component better than can I, but it's my understanding that those programs/tracks are generally very competitive, as are VA jobs (which would be disqualified if you aren't able to obtain an APA-accredited internship).

In all honesty, I can't think of a single solid, viable reason to recommend attending a "degree mill." The cost is prohibitively expensive compared to the salary you can expect to earn as a psychologist, and your career prospects are, at best, not helped by having a degree from those institutions. My personal opinion is that some of those programs could be viewed as predatory, and are harmful to the field and its practitioners.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I need some advice fairly specific to my situation about PsyD programs. I have a low GPA - 3.2, that declined from a 4.0 my first two years. (Though my Psych GPA is over 3.5) I also flunked out of Law School.[/B

The decline in grades your last two years and subsequent poor performance in law school give me pause to recommend to apply to any doctoral programs right off the bat. From what I know from friends who are lawyers, law school is a grind and it requires a similar level of effort as a psychology doctoral program. While the coursework is only 30% (in my estimation) of your time in grad school, juggling the other 70% can wear on someone just as much or moreso when other responsibilities start piling up. A masters programs may be a better opportunity to get back into the classroom before attempting to jump right into the deep end of any doctoral program. It may also be a bette match overall, though that is a personal decision you need to make.

However, I have a few years of experience in counseling and working in a mental hospital. I would like a course of study that would result in a career that involves daily patient/client interaction. I would love to work on a PET team or to become a private practice therapist.

That was a great idea to be exposed to "real" day to day work in the mental health field, as there are a number of misperceptions the general public has about the work. Why doctoral instead of masters training? There are a bunch of other hoops for doctoral training that may or may not be of interest to you. Research, stats, assessment, teaching, etc. Whether a person is in a Psy.D. or Ph.D. program, these things are all required (per APA standards), so I'd guess 20% or less of your total training will actually involve direct patient/client work, and maybe half of your classes will involve therapy-esque topics. By the end of your training you'd still get more contact hours, classroom hours, etc. than a Masters program, but it will also take you at least twice as long to do and require relocation at least once or twice for internship and/or post-doc.

On the forums I’ve read that I should get Masters first because my GPA is so Low. What kind of Masters should I get? Many MA/Ss in counseling are through Ed programs. Is that a bad thing? What am I looking for?

As others have mentioned, your GPA isn't prohibitively low if the rest of your application is strong, but it may take some time to build up the rest of your app to be competitive. People have different opinions about the type of MA/MS program that is most appropriate for someone using it as a stepping-stone to a doctoral program. I don't know as much about programs housed in Ed departments, so I can't really speak to them.

I usually recommend finding a masters program that requires a thesis and has a history of getting their students into doctoral programs. The rub is that many of the good masters programs with a thesis option are still quite competitive (relative to non-thesis programs aimed at getting students licensed and doing therapy at the masters level) and they may or may not allow you to be license eligible at the masters level after completion.

You should figure out if you want to jump through all of the extra hoops associated with doctoral work, and then go from there. If you do...then consider the type of masters program I mentioned above. In regard to your GPA, 3.2 really isn't bad, as a solid GRE score (1200+ on the old scale) should make that a non-factor at most MA/MS programs. If you decide to forego the doctoral route and focus on MA/MS practice, then you should find the best acred. therapy-focused program and go there. Avoid free-standing programs/schools, online programs, and any program that will cost you an arm and a leg. Most state uni programs will be much more reasonable in regard to cost than private colleges or universities. Spending $50k-90k on tuition/costs to then apply for jobs that are $30-$40k is not advisable. Ever.

Best of luck.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The PsyD degree mills do have a certain interest to me. My goal is to work in an acute Psych setting (PET maybe?)or with Veterans and their families. If I'm willing to make a military commitment does it matter that my degree came from Argosy or Alliant?

1. Cost can be a HUUUUGE anchor once you get out of school. Paying $800-$1200/mon for 20-30yr to pay off 6 figure debt can be a very stressful situation. There have been threads on here that laid out the actual cost, and I think they even included VA salaries. The bottom line is that it does not make financial sense.

2. The university name on your degree really doesn't matter that much once you get licensed, but before that point it does matter...quite a bit. In the past year (or two?) only ~52% of ALL applicants for the Match were able to secure an APA-acred spot. An APA-acred. internship is a requirement to work in the VA system. period.

3. Military repayment programs (whether it is repaid during or after your training) are quite competitive.

 

[Kayceekay]

The decline in grades your last two years and subsequent poor performance in law school give me pause to recommend to apply to any doctoral programs right off the bat. From what I know from friends who are lawyers, law school is a grind and it requires a similar level of effort as a psychology doctoral program.

Law school, at least in my experience, was not a grind it was an assault. My school kicked out anyone who finished the first year with less than 74% average- which was slightly less than 1/3 of the 234 people in my class. Grades were determined by a Two hour (mostly closed book) final exam at the end of the semester with no opportunity for feedback from the professor about exam specific topics. All of the grades were curved with a specific percentage automatically failing. Study guidance consisted of "know everything we've covered" and then you needed to synthesize that information into an 10-15 page coherent response within the two hours. Theoretically to prepare you for the Bar exam and not to practice law. Many of my classmates did well in that environment. I went slightly mad, developed a number of medical conditions - psoriasis, insomnia etc (I was awake for 4 days in February 2012, it was a fascinating experience)

None of the above is an exaggeration. If PsyD/PhD/MS programs are anything like that you can count me out. My understanding is that program admittance is more competitive but, once you're in, the grading is slightly more forgiving. Is there rigor or grade based attrition? Are there timed exams?

 

[PHD12]

None of the above is an exaggeration. If PsyD/PhD/MS programs are anything like that you can count me out. My understanding is that program admittance is more competitive but, once you're in, the grading is slightly more forgiving. Is there rigor or grade based attrition? Are there timed exams?

Law school is a much more straight forward and a clearer path. If you go to a top 5 law school you are set (everyone from a top law school i spoke to has echoed this). If not, then the weeding out happens in the first year. However, after 3 years of school and passing the bar, you are now a lawyer, and can practice in more than one state. In our field, the weeding out happens at many different points, even when you are far along in your training.

There is so much more uncertainty in PsyD and PhD programs, and significantly more steps. You go through 8 years of training on average. Plus there is no guarantee that you will match for internship after committing 4 to 5 years of your life. Unfortunately, only 50% of people (or even less if you count the people that go through CAPIC) in our field match for APA internships these days. That means that they are severely limited in their employment options after internship, and have a significantly harder time getting licensed in some states. Also licensure laws can vary tremendously from state to state so there is no reciprocity like there is for lawyers (it is much easier for lawyers). Unfortunately, the weeding out process in our field only happens once you've committed 5 years of your life, time, and money. If you go to a top program (those that have 90% match rates or higher), you can mitigate some of the risk.

Professional programs (e.g., Alliant etc) have abysmal APA match rates, even as low as 10%. There is no law school in the country that only places 10% of its students in employment settings or places people in unpaid jobs (this is often the case if you go to one of these schools).

btw, I went to a top program and landed a good APA internship, and I still feel that this field is full of uncertainty and risk. I live in a state that has rigorous licensure requirements so there is still no guarantee that I will get licensed in a timely manner or at all in my state (I'll let you know in a year or so and may have to move again).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

None of the above is an exaggeration. If PsyD/PhD/MS programs are anything like that you can count me out. My understanding is that program admittance is more competitive but, once you're in, the grading is slightly more forgiving. Is there rigor or grade based attrition? Are there timed exams?

The short answer is that the expectation is students pass their classes and study as much (or as little) as needed to continue to advance in training.

the long answer...Admittance is the first major hurdle, but there are many more during and after your program that can be pretty rigid and unforgiving. Traditionally, the vast majority of attrition happens in the first year, though for a myriad of reasons besides grades (e.g. problems w. research mentors, funding issues, etc). I'm not sure how the internship crisis has impacted students leaving or 'timing out' (taking longer than the university allows to complete your degree), but I'd guess that more students now are not finishing than say students from 20+ years ago.

Classes at many programs can be a "B = Ph.D." mentality, as the focus is more on research and clinical experiences outside of the classroom. There is an expectation that students do what they need to do to pass their classes. I have no idea how other programs do their exams, though I'd expect it is a mix of multiple choice, short answer, case study, research papers, etc. Most programs have "comps", which are specific points of review while in a program that are required to move forward in the program. Some do written exams and others do oral. Some do them on a range of competency areas and others will be research or clinical/therapy focused.

I've heard of students having a range of support from their mentors and programs. Some programs and mentors are reasonable, and others are very much not. I think most programs will expect students to "make it work" and only in more extreme circumstances will they step in. I have heard more instances of neutral to less support from mentors than instances where a person's mentor was very supportive and even pro-active about issues. While this is your complete professional focus, they have other professional responsibilities besides mentoring. It isn't a rosy picture, but it is better to know this now instead of being a year in and drowning.