PsyD Prospective Student

[Megan202]

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Hi everyone,

I am currently applying to PsyD programs around Los Angeles & I'm looking for some honest & valid information regarding some programs.

Brief background:
Graduated with a BA in Psychology
Psych GPA of 3.8
One year of crisis counseling by volunteering with a rape crisis agency (Peace Over Violence)
Not so great with standardized testing (GRE's)
Extremely passionate
Financially: I've saved up quiet a bit for myself, I will be applying for every scholarship I can get my hands on, my parents are willing to help, & then the rest will be through student loans

Hopes & Dreams: I am looking to become a psychologist & work with survivors of trauma. I was a research assistant in college & honestly, have no interest in conducting research (although I obviously understand it's importance). I'm looking for a program where I will receive clinical training that I will need to open my own practice, possibly become an expert witness, and practice EMDR.

I've read every thread I can find regarding AIU:CSPP PsyD's program, but most are dating back to 2008. Honestly, I love what the program seems to offer- practitioner-oriented, emphasis on multicultural training, & in exactly the city I plan on practicing. Several reviews however, seem to come from major university students saying it (and I quote) "sucks". This is a HUGE decision for me & I'd love to hear from students & alumni of that program 🙂 I understand the match rate is low, but does anyone have insight as to why? I am not in this just for the fancy "Dr.", I am in this to be able to help people as much as I can. If I work my butt off, network, & over-achieve, will I still not be in a good place when it comes time to apply for APA internships?

I am also interested in Pepperdine, USC, & UCSB... none of which have a PsyD program that I could apply to with a BA. As I said, I'm interested in the PsyD, but would still love a little feedback on those options.

Thank you so much for any & all feedback! 🙂

 

[erg923]

If I work my butt off, network, & over-achieve, will I still not be in a good place when it comes time to apply for APA internships?

Its better than being lazy of course, but that data doesn't lie. The match rate is what it is, right? I dont think you count on being the outlier..no matter how special you might consider yourself.

 

[erg923]

An answer to why the match rate is so bad for these programs is multifactorial, obvioulsy, but if you think about what you said in your first post, it might become a little more clear. That is, you are competing for internships with a crowd who DOES have research interest and a research background that you are openly choosing to shun. Thats the kind of student that tends to go to the schools on your list...and training directors know it. In other words, these students make a choice not to be as academically accomplished as applicants from traditional university pograms. For many places then, the choice betweeen the 2 is not that hard.

 

[WisNeuro]

Don't "specialize" in EMDR. Why not leave the fairy dust behind and get trained in the actual treatment, PE or CPT? Also, read some other threads, Ph.D.s are not all these evil factories where they chain you to a desk and make you do 80 hours of research a week. The tail end of my program was very clinically focused. Plus, most of the purely clinical people I know with 0 research experience tend to make poor decisions when evaluating efficacy. Case in point, the reason people think EMDR actually does something above and beyond exposure.

 

[erg923]

I would also note that Los Angeles is probably THE MOST saturated area of the country for psychologists AND therapists of all kinds. You are essentially setting yourself up to compete in the most competitive and crowded job market in the country with nearly the lowest quality program/credentials. Not many people are going to understand your risk-benefit analysis of this situations should you choose to move forward.

 

[Megan202]

"these students make a choice not to be as academically accomplished"

The problem I have with this is I've met with three psychologists who are doing exactly what I want to be doing:

Dr. who graduated with PsyD: absolutely loves having her private practice, is super successful, expert witness, etc... graduated from CSPP

Dr. who graduated with PhD: absolutely loves having her own practice but wishes the PsyD program was available when she was in school because she felt as though she got a good amount of research training but, ended up not having much time in the program for clinical training. She said she was very lucky to land an internship where her supervisor was able to train her more in therapy.

Dr. who graduated with PhD: absolutely loves having her own practice, teaches at NYU, and advised me to take the PsyD route because I will get more training in what I want to be doing.

I don't see being heavily research-oriented as being more "academically accomplished" at all. I mean, you can be a genius but if you can't talk to people effectively- what good are you going to be as a therapist? Anyone watch the big bang theory?

Anyway- ERG, thank you for your quick response. I'm aware LA is saturated & trust me, that does worry me when it comes to competitiveness! Hopefully I end up being better than all the rest! 😉

 

[erg923]

One of the Alliant's is supposed to be marketely better than all the others and at least the ph.d students there seem to get good research training should they want to. I dont know which one it is, though...

 

[erg923]

3 out of...how many Psy.Ds in the greater LA area? Do the math. I also know 3 high school drop outs who make 6 figures. But do people recommend this path. No, of course not. Why is that? Thats your answer.

 

[WisNeuro]

I would take what erg said to heart a bit. In the several places I have been at, if they get an application for internship/postdoc with "SPP" somewhere in former institutions, it tends to get filed in the circular storage bin. If you know what I mean.

 

[erg923]

Dr. who graduated with PhD: absolutely loves having her own practice but wishes the PsyD program was available when she was in school because she felt as though she got a good amount of research training but, ended up not having much time in the program for clinical training. She said she was very lucky to land an internship where her supervisor was able to train her more in therapy.

This means the person is old and got the doctorate when this was indeed the case.

Its really not like this anymore except at the most research heavy/notorious of programs.

This dichotomy that ph.d equals research OVER clinical training is FALSE and we often seek to rectify this here on SDN.

 

[MCParent]

"these students make a choice not to be as academically accomplished"

The problem I have with this is I've met with three psychologists who are doing exactly what I want to be doing:

Dr. who graduated with PsyD: absolutely loves having her private practice, is super successful, expert witness, etc... graduated from CSPP

Dr. who graduated with PhD: absolutely loves having her own practice but wishes the PsyD program was available when she was in school because she felt as though she got a good amount of research training but, ended up not having much time in the program for clinical training. She said she was very lucky to land an internship where her supervisor was able to train her more in therapy.

Dr. who graduated with PhD: absolutely loves having her own practice, teaches at NYU, and advised me to take the PsyD route because I will get more training in what I want to be doing.

These are anecdotes. They are not useful data, and should not factor into decision-making about something more important. More relevant data are things like debt at the end of training (http://www.appic.org/Match/MatchStatistics/ApplicantSurvey2011Part3.aspx; much higher for PsyDs like the ones you're looking at) combined with anticipated income (http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/09-salaries/index.aspx; bad debt-to-income ratio).

I don't see being heavily research-oriented as being more "academically accomplished" at all. I mean, you can be a genius but if you can't talk to people effectively- what good are you going to be as a therapist? Anyone watch the big bang theory?

These things are not mutually exclusively. Indeed, I've found almost the opposite of what you're describing is the case.

Hopefully I end up being better than all the rest! 😉

You should see what a financial planner says about an expectation to be an outlier.

 

[KillerDiller]

"these students make a choice not to be as academically accomplished"

The problem I have with this is I've met with three psychologists who are doing exactly what I want to be doing:

Dr. who graduated with PsyD: absolutely loves having her private practice, is super successful, expert witness, etc... graduated from CSPP

Dr. who graduated with PhD: absolutely loves having her own practice but wishes the PsyD program was available when she was in school because she felt as though she got a good amount of research training but, ended up not having much time in the program for clinical training. She said she was very lucky to land an internship where her supervisor was able to train her more in therapy.

Dr. who graduated with PhD: absolutely loves having her own practice, teaches at NYU, and advised me to take the PsyD route because I will get more training in what I want to be doing.

I don't see being heavily research-oriented as being more "academically accomplished" at all. I mean, you can be a genius but if you can't talk to people effectively- what good are you going to be as a therapist? Anyone watch the big bang theory?

Anyway- ERG, thank you for your quick response. I'm aware LA is saturated & trust me, that does worry me when it comes to competitiveness! Hopefully I end up being better than all the rest! 😉

Apparently these folks aren't familiar with the APPIC stats for applicants to the match. PhD applicants have MORE clinical hours than PsyD students by the time they apply to internship. If PsyD programs can't even offer a measurable focus on clinical work relative to PhD programs, I can't see paying an arm and a leg to attend one.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Hopes & Dreams: I am looking to become a psychologist & work with survivors of trauma. I was a research assistant in college & honestly, have no interest in conducting research (although I obviously understand it's importance).

...then doctoral training will not be a good fit for you. Utilization of research is a cornerstone of doctoral training. There is a growing focus (thankfully) on empirically based therapies, which requires the clinician to be a consumer of research. Most people who graduate from a doctoral program continue on to be clinicians and not academics or even regular contributors to the research literature, though that doesn't mean research training wasn't a large part of their training.

I'm looking for a program where I will receive clinical training that I will need to open my own practice, possibly become an expert witness, and practice EMDR.

*takes a deep breath* <--deep breathing, it really works!

All kidding aside, EMDR is the epitome of why being grounded in research is so important. It combines exposure therapy (supported and replicated in thousands of studies) with the equivalent of proprietary fairy dust and moon beams (the eye movement portion).

AIU:CSPP PsyD's program.....

I understand the match rate is low, but does anyone have insight as to why?

1. The CA market is flooded...as in probably the worst place to try and find a job in the country. This makes every practica placement, internship, post-doc, and job that much harder to get.

2. CSPP does not have a good reputation. The opinions expressed on SDN are a small sampling, but I think they are pretty reflective of the field.

If I work my butt off, network, & over-achieve, will I still not be in a good place when it comes time to apply for APA internships?

Everyone works their butts off and is accustomed to overachieving, so I'm not sure I'd hang my hat on just working harder/smarter than others. There are already too many hurdles involved in becoming a psychologist, so adding a low match rate to the mix is asking to fail.

 

[MCParent]

Dr. who graduated with PhD: absolutely loves having her own practice but wishes the PsyD program was available when she was in school because she felt as though she got a good amount of research training but, ended up not having much time in the program for clinical training. She said she was very lucky to land an internship where her supervisor was able to train her more in therapy.

As Erg says, this is incorrect and a misperception. PhDs get lots of clinical training; on average, more than PsyDs.

http://www.appic.org/Match/MatchStatistics/ApplicantSurvey2011Part3.aspx

10. Doctoral practicum hours reported on the AAPI:

Ph.D. Psy.D.
Doctoral Intervention Hours
Median 602 540
Mean 650 576
St. Dev. 348 293

Doctoral Assessment Hours
Median 167 122
Mean 225 163
St. Dev. 202 162

Doctoral Supervision Hours
Median 347 262
Mean 377 284
St. Dev. 186 149

 

[erg923]

I don't see being heavily research-oriented as being more "academically accomplished" at all

Well, sorry. thats excactly what it means. Applicant with 5 publications and numerous conferences presentations and research involvment is more "academically" accomplished than applicant with none. Period.

I would also bet that the first applciant is more likely to practice EBTs and be a more critical and scientifically-oriented clinican. Something the field needs more of...

 

[MCParent]

I'll plug the web site again. Megan202, I suggest you check this out:

http://psychologygradschool.weebly.com/

 

[PsyDr]

Megan202, it's an awful idea. straight up terrible.

You are asking people's opinions and then discounting them with your anecdotal evidence.

You also cannot count on doing what you think you want to be doing after you graduate.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

As has been mentioned, it's important (for all current student, not just the OP) to note that anecdotes from folks who've been graduated and practicing for years/decades need to be taken with a grain of salt, particularly if these individuals haven't been keeping up with trends in the field such as the current internship shortage/crisis. Additionally, folks with a well-established private practice may not be taking a huge hit in the current economic and healthcare climate, but early career individuals are having a much, much harder time getting started in those areas.

RE: becoming an expert witness, that's perhaps the single most contentious area of practice, during which your credentials and the research/data upon which your comments and opinions are based will be highly scrutinized. Also, keep in mind that many expert witnesses are identified/verified as such based on having numerous publications/a well-documented research history in a particular field. That and/or board certification are biggies nowadays.

OP, you'd be much, much better served by busting your hump in a reputable program, wherein working hard will go much further in setting you up to be successful.

 

[Megan202]

WisNeuro- boo, I hate hearing those "fairy dust" comments because I'm so fascinated by EMDR (when paired with psychotherapy)... but I definitely respect your opinion- thank you. Either way, I can't be trained in EMDR until I'm a doctoral student so no rush there! PE worries me because I'd like to work with survivors of rape/sexual assault & I have heard it can be harmful for survivors... but either way, I'm sure I'll be trained in both PE & CBT through any PsyD program.

You mentioned that the end of your program was clinically focused- may I ask which program? The only way I'd consider a PhD program were if it REALLY were clincally-oriented...

 

[AcronymAllergy]

WisNeuro- boo, I hate hearing those "fairy dust" comments because I'm so fascinated by EMDR (when paired with psychotherapy)... but I definitely respect your opinion- thank you. Either way, I can't be trained in EMDR until I'm a doctoral student so no rush there! PE worries me because I'd like to work with survivors of rape/sexual assault & I have heard it can be harmful for survivors... but either way, I'm sure I'll be trained in both PE & CBT through any PsyD program.

You mentioned that the end of your program was clinically focused- may I ask which program? The only way I'd consider a PhD program were if it REALLY were clincally-oriented...

As far as I know, the exposure components of EMDR and PE are essentially identical. And also as far as I know, there's no research supporting the idea that PE is harmful for survivors of sexual assault. In my opinion, the eye movement component of EMDR basically just helps to mobilize the patient's and therapist's (who may have paid a pretty penny for the classes) expectancies for improvement via various channels (i.e., it's a fancy placebo).

But I digress and will end there, for fear of derailing the thread.

 

[Megan202]

I'll plug the web site again. Megan202, I suggest you check this out:

http://psychologygradschool.weebly.com/

Thank you- looks great & I will definitely spend some time on it.

 

[Megan202]

MC parent "These are anecdotes. They are not useful data, and should not factor into decision-making about something more important."

.... I mean c'mon- I wouldn't consider talking to a few psychologists "data." Their opinions are just as useful as anyone else who decides to post on this site... The more opinions I can gather-the better an idea I will have when I make this decision for myself. I personally feel as though my level of training is more important than debt, but that is good information to look into nonetheless. Thanks for the site!

 

[erg923]

WisNeuro- boo, I hate hearing those "fairy dust" comments because I'm so fascinated by EMDR (when paired with psychotherapy)... but I definitely respect your opinion- thank you. Either way, I can't be trained in EMDR until I'm a doctoral student so no rush there! PE worries me because I'd like to work with survivors of rape/sexual assault & I have heard it can be harmful for survivors... but either way, I'm sure I'll be trained in both PE & CBT through any PsyD program.

You mentioned that the end of your program was clinically focused- may I ask which program? The only way I'd consider a PhD program were if it REALLY were clincally-oriented...

Surgeons think cutting people open is cool and interesting, but they dont agree to surgery because of that!
You practice something because of evidence and parsimony, not because you think its cool or interesting, right?

PE done right is not harmful even when client has reservations and has serious trauma. The explantory model would tell us that habitiuation occurs regardless of trauma subtype. Escape conditioning can be broken for just about anything...

 

[Megan202]

This means the person is old and got the doctorate when this was indeed the case.

Its really not like this anymore except at the most research heavy/notorious of programs.

This dichotomy that ph.d equals research OVER clinical training is FALSE and we often seek to rectify this here on SDN.

You're going to discredit someone by saying they are old? You joined this site in 2007, when I was a junior in HS. I think YOUR old. Seriously though, I do respect her opinion as well as yours. It sounds like maybe I should think about some PhD programs because they've gotten more clinically-oriented over the last decade..? Thank you for that tid-bit of info!

 

[erg923]

I personally feel as though my level of training is more important than debt, but that is good information to look into nonetheless. Thanks for the site!

It doesnt matter what you think about it...it matters what others think. They hire you. They determine your pay scale.

 

[erg923]

You're going to discredit someone by saying they are old?

Yes

 

[Sanman]

You're going to discredit someone by saying they are old? You joined this site in 2007, when I was a junior in HS. I think YOUR old. Seriously though, I do respect her opinion as well as yours. It sounds like maybe I should think about some PhD programs because they've gotten more clinically-oriented over the last decade..? Thank you for that tid-bit of info!

He did not say that they should be discredited. He said that their opinions may not be relevant to what is occurring the market today. I concur with the sentiment. I have supervisor that trained at CSPP in the 70s. However, that was before CSPP was the behemoth it is today and the market was as crowded as it currently is. He had opportunities not available to many CSPP graduates today. Thus, it may not be likely or possible to do what those clinicians did.

An anecdote for you, when I applied to internship a few years ago a classmate of mine did not match (this was before round two) and had to go into clearing house. This was a student with a 4.0 graduate gpa, solid clinical hours, and a dissertation already proposed. My program, a small, university based one, picked up a phone and called around. They found her an APA accredited internship spot with one of the programs are associated with our school. Come clearinghouse day, she had a guaranteed spot. Do you think that would happen at CSPP? Working hard is not going to necessarily negate not making a different choice now. Choose wisely and you will have people working for you rather than trying to push yourself against the tide. Also, you will care about loans more than clinical training when you get out, owe more than $1000/mth in repayment, and can't afford to do what you want. How likely are to open that practice with six figure loan debt when no one will give you a small business loan?

 

[Megan202]

As far as I know, the exposure components of EMDR and PE are essentially identical. And also as far as I know, there's no research supporting the idea that PE is harmful for survivors of sexual assault. In my opinion, the eye movement component of EMDR basically just helps to mobilize the patient's and therapist's (who may have paid a pretty penny for the classes) expectancies for improvement via various channels (i.e., it's a fancy placebo).

But I digress and will end there, for fear of derailing the thread.

I can certainly see how that can work- "fancy placebo" interesting.

 

[erg923]

Megan, this is a ph.d. in "clinical" psychology, not experimental psychology. Its "clincially focused" because thats what it IS. But, you have to have the scientific training to go along with it, or you're nothing but a midlevel practioner with some good clinical experiences. Training in the science of "psychology," which like it or not involves alot of statistics, psychometrics, and conceptual scientific thinking, is what being a psychologist actually is.

I would also encourage looking at ph.d programs in counseling psychology. Likley to be more clincially focused but still have a science component and no stigma.

 

[Megan202]

He did not say that they should be discredited. He said that their opinions may not be relevant to what is occurring the market today. I concur with the sentiment. I have supervisor that trained at CSPP in the 70s. However, that was before CSPP was the behemoth it is today and the market was as crowded as it currently is. He had opportunities not available to many CSPP graduates today. What you are see

Well he did say he would discredit them but irrelevant... You're explanation is a lot better. Basically, CSPP has gone down hill a lot in the last few decades so those who have already been practicing for years may have a false idea about how good of a program it is. Right? That makes sense. I really need to find some fresh CSPP grads to get a realistic sense of what the program is like...

 

[Megan202]

Megan, this is a ph.d. in "clinical" psychology, not experimental psychology. Its "clincially focused" because that what it is. But, you have to have the scientific training to go along with it, or you're nothing but a midlevel practioner with some good clinical experiences. Training in the science of "psychology," which like it or not involves alot of statistics, psychometrics, and conceptual scientific thinking, is what being a psychologist actually is.

I would also encourage looking at ph.d programs in counseling psychology. Likley to be more clincially focused but still have a science component and no stigma.

Yes, totally... I understand psychology is a science & I definitely want to have a solid understanding of research. I do not want to get into a program that is so heavily research-oriented though, that I end up graduating with all of this wonderful knowledge but I'm not really able to apply it. Nor do I want to go through a very practitioner-oriented program & then have people laugh at me when I apply for internships/jobs. I was very set on PsyD but I'm sensing that I should take a step back & consider PhDs in counseling as well. Does anyone have any experience with the USC, USC, or Pepperdine programs? Pepperdine I'm super ehhh about because 1. I'd have to go through MA program first, & then apply for doctorate 2. Christian.... I 100% respect Christians & religion in general, but that is NOT me. If a professor brought up the bible or prayer or god in class- I'd literally scream & run out the door.. really.. really.. fast. Is that totally ludicrous? I have no idea how much the religious aspect ties into training. Anyone with experience?

 

[Sanman]

Well he did say he would discredit them but irrelevant... You're explanation is a lot better. Basically, CSPP has gone down hill a lot in the last few decades so those who have already been practicing for years may have a false idea about how good of a program it is. Right? That makes sense. I really need to find some fresh CSPP grads to get a realistic sense of what the program is like...

Not just CSPP, but the market too. Look at MBA programs 40 years ago. An MBA used to a ticket to a management job and the good life. Now, there are so many MBA grads that my barista has one. No name schools hand then out like candy. 40 years ago no name MBA still got you a management position. 40 years later the same degree from the same school gets you a job at Starbucks. Add to that, since it was founded CSPP was bought by a private for-profit company that exploded class sizes to make money.

 

[erg923]

I 100% respect Christians & religion in general, but that is NOT me. If a professor brought up the bible or prayer or god in class- I'd literally scream & run out the door.. really.. really.. fast. Is that totally ludicrous? I have no idea how much the religious aspect ties into training. Anyone with experience?

On peronal note, I find this sad. I hate when people do this, but I suppose it comes from long misheld beliefs/perceptions about faith that the church (at least the Catholic church) does little to correct. The church is composed of humans who are as prone to sin as any other. Thus, I'm not sure why it suprises and then disgusts people so much when they learn how that power has then been twisted, abused, and misinterpreted over the centuries. Knowing humans...it doesn't suprise me at all. Its generally what comes natural (have you seen congress?). Even if you are not Christian, I am sure you know that we hold that Jesus was the only person to lead a sinless life.

On a professional note, you may want to temper that reaction, because you know who may be a devout Catholic...your patient! He/she deserves to have a therpaist that can at least utilize this psychic support/strength, rather than discount it/avoid it... or run out the room, no?

 

[Megan202]

He did not say that they should be discredited. He said that their opinions may not be relevant to what is occurring the market today. I concur with the sentiment. I have supervisor that trained at CSPP in the 70s. However, that was before CSPP was the behemoth it is today and the market was as crowded as it currently is. He had opportunities not available to many CSPP graduates today. Thus, it may not be likely or possible to do what those clinicians did.

An anecdote for you, when I applied to internship a few years ago a classmate of mine did not match (this was before round two) and had to go into clearing house. This was a student with a 4.0 graduate gpa, solid clinical hours, and a dissertation already proposed. My program, a small, university based one, picked up a phone and called around. They found her an APA accredited internship spot with one of the programs are associated with our school. Come clearinghouse day, she had a guaranteed spot. Do you think that would happen at CSPP? Working hard is not going to necessarily negate not making a different choice now. Choose wisely and you will have people working for you rather than trying to push yourself against the tide. Also, you will care about loans more than clinical training when you get out, owe more than $1000/mth in repayment, and can't afford to do what you want. How likely are to open that practice with six figure loan debt when no one will give you a small business loan?

Honestly, when you ask "Do you think that would happen at CSPP?" I don't know- that's exactly why I started this thread. I've heard fabulous things & seen graduates become VERY successful, but I've also heard horrific things. I'd love to hear the answer to that, backed up with some evidence. Would you mind sharing which program you went through? Will they call around & get me an APA accredited internship? 😉 Everyone tells me choose wisely- & trust me, I'm trying!!! There are SOOOO soo many options- I feel like researching programs has become a second full-time job for me!

Financial stuff- Yes, it scares me a lot. Just thinking about it makes me nauseous. Every time I bring it up to my parents though, they tell me "If you get into a school, don't worry about paying for it." They worked so hard to be able to put me through college & they tell me I'm a good investment. They are even willing to move into a smaller house to help me out... Crazy- I know. I'm also working full-time now & for one more year in order to avoid having anyone help me. But, I figured I'll focus purely on which program is best for me, & get into it, & then worry about the finances.

 

[Megan202]

Not just CSPP, but the market too. Look at MBA programs 40 years ago. An MBA used to a ticket to a management job and the good life. Now, there are so many MBA grads that my barista has one. No name schools hand then out like candy. 40 years ago no name MBA still got you a management position. 40 years later the same degree from the same school gets you a job at Starbucks. Add to that, since it was founded CSPP was bought by a private for-profit company that exploded class sizes to make money.

Sooo, screw this & apply to work at Starbucks? I'm sorry but all I really get from that is that there are more people perusing higher education. Get two PhD's, or you're screwed? I'm not going to just not try because there will be a lot of competition. Worse case, I do have a back-up plan 😉

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

On peronal note, I find this sad. I hate when people do this, but I suppose it comes from long misheld beliefs/perceptions about faith that the church (at least the Catholic church) does little to correct. The church is composed of humans who are as prone to sin as any other. Thus, I'm not sure why it suprises and then disgusts people so much when they learn how that power has then been abused over the centuries. Knowing humans...it doesn't suprise me at all. Even if you are not Christian, I am sure you know that we hold that Jesus was the only person to lead a sinless life.

On a professional note, you may want to temper that reaction, because you know who may be a devout Catholic...your patient! He/she deserves to have a therpaist that can at least utilize this psychic support/strength, rather than discount it/avoid it... or run out the room, no?

Hi Megan,

I wanted to touch up on two main points, one pertains to your initial question about Psy.D. v. Ph.D. programs and the other pertains to the view you have on Christian-centered programs. As everyone else has stated, the Psy.D. is typically a pretty detrimental move in regards to becoming a competent and successful practicing psychologist. However, there are a handful of Psy.D. programs that offer funding as well as a good exposure in research methods and analysis (Rutgers, Baylor, etc.) they are often harder to get in compared to many Ph.D. programs. On that note, I think if you are set on clinical or applied practice, looking into counseling psychology Ph.D. programs would be a better move. Also, when you are looking only to speak with or gather information from people attending one school or program (e.g. CSPP) over others, you do narrow your scope in sampling...basically, you are skewing your results and the representation of the population of psychologists as a whole when only looking for alumni of only certain programs.

On a second note, as an agnostic and as a gay man, I am not religious and have a somewhat biased view in how religious ideology perpetuates human learning (another discussion at a later time). Regardless of this perception, I also come from a family that are from the midwest and from the south and they are an even split between Baptists and Catholics (you should have been at their wedding 😛). The point is, I know that religion much like any other modality in the toolbox of therapists is one of many. While I probably wouldn't learn specific Christian-centered therapies myself, I know they are very useful in initiating strategies to cope. Also, if you do decide to proceed with doctoral studies, you will find that you are among other students of varying backgrounds including many Christian people. It's often an exciting experience to work with a diverse population.

 

[erg923]

Every time I bring it up to my parents though, they tell me "If you get into a school, don't worry about paying for it." They worked so hard to be able to put me through college & they tell me I'm a good investment. They are even willing to move into a smaller house to help me out... Crazy- I know. I'm also working full-time now & for one more year in order to avoid having anyone help me. But, I figured I'll focus purely on which program is best for me, & get into it, & then worry about the finances.

Megan, with all due respect, you are an adult. Adults consider economic consequences. Adults consider economic risk/benefits of their decisions. That's part of being a responsible adult. I guarantee your parents did not get into the apparent well-off economic position they are in with such short-sighted, laxidasical approaches to financial management/responsibility. So, I am not sure why they would say such things. Please keep in mind that things happen despite whatever 'plans" we may have made. I would much advise that you are holding the cards when those things happen...not someone else.

Education "pays off" if the salary indeed makes up for the borrowing, right? You will start earning about 50k. You may get up 100K over time. Maybe. Does this justify 250k in debt? Your not suze ormand, but come on...
Could you maybe accomplish your "dream" without having someone else change their life? I would hope you would exhaust ALL OPTIONS before you let them do something like that for you.

 

[Sanman]

Sooo, screw this & apply to work at Starbucks? I'm sorry but all I really get from that is that there are more people perusing higher education. Get two PhD's, or you're screwed? I'm not going to just not try because there will be a lot of competition. Worse case, I do have a back-up plan 😉

Well, no. A Harvard MBA still gets you a good job. My point is that you cannot assume debt will not matter and that all programs are the same or will give you that same job prospects. Look at APA internship percentages for the schools you are considering and realize that there has been the suggestion that APA accredited internships should be a requirement for state licensure incur future. Will that happen before you finish and are licensed? I don't know. However, it is not a chance I would take. The point is this. Whatever your personal views on research ad traditional programs, not having that background will reduce your job options in the future.

 

[WisNeuro]

Well, no. A Harvard MBA still gets you a good job. My point is that you cannot assume debt will not matter and that all programs are the same or will give you that same job prospects. Look at APA internship percentages for the schools you are considering and realize that there has been the suggestion that APA accredited internships should be a requirement for state licensure incur future. Will that happen before you finish and are licensed? I don't know. However, it is not a chance I would take. The point is this. Whatever your personal views on research ad traditional programs, not having that background will reduce your job options in the future.

Also, there are many positions that you will not qualify for if you do not have an APA accredited internship. Such as the VA, the largest employer of psychologists, to name one.

 

[Megan202]

On peronal note, I find this sad. I hate when people do this, but I suppose it comes from long misheld beliefs/perceptions about faith that the church (at least the Catholic church) does little to correct. The church is composed of humans who are as prone to sin as any other. Thus, I'm not sure why it suprises and then disgusts people so much when they learn how that power has then been twisted, abused, and misinterpreted over the centuries. Knowing humans...it doesn't suprise me at all. Its generally what comes natural (have you seen congress?). Even if you are not Christian, I am sure you know that we hold that Jesus was the only person to lead a sinless life.

On a professional note, you may want to temper that reaction, because you know who may be a devout Catholic...your patient! He/she deserves to have a therpaist that can at least utilize this psychic support/strength, rather than discount it/avoid it... or run out the room, no?

Like I said, I have 100% respect for those who are religious. In no way, shape, or form would I use the word "disgust" to explain my view on religion. I have worked with several clients who are very religious & I find it to be a beautiful thing when people have a solid support system, whether it be called a church, a book club, or a football team. I'm not worried about seeing clients who are Catholic, Muslim, Wiccan- whatever works for you! I'm not referring to accepting a clients religious views, I'm referring to my worry on how religious opinions may impact my clinical training at a religious school. I know it seems silly but I'm terrified of picking a program that will try to tell me that prayer literally works. I don't believe your statement regarding Jesus but, I respect your beliefs & I'm sure you will respect mine. I brought that up because I'm not sure if that is something I should be bothered with. I don't want anyone else's religious beliefs being pushed on me, especially in a scientific field of study... Does anyone know how Pepperdine works? I suppose that's a good question for their admissions counselor.

 

[Sanman]

Honestly, when you ask "Do you think that would happen at CSPP?" I don't know- that's exactly why I started this thread. I've heard fabulous things & seen graduates become VERY successful, but I've also heard horrific things. I'd love to hear the answer to that, backed up with some evidence. Would you mind sharing which program you went through? Will they call around & get me an APA accredited internship? 😉 Everyone tells me choose wisely- & trust me, I'm trying!!! There are SOOOO soo many options- I feel like researching programs has become a second full-time job for me!

Well to give you a chance at an educated guess on that issue. My program had 9 students in my cohort. CSPP has, what, 100 students? Which one has the better chance if developing a personal relationship with professors? On a personal note, which has the option of being invited to the professors home for class and being treated to pizza? Don't discount the differences in how personalized the experience may be.

 

[MCParent]

On that note, I think if you are set on clinical or applied practice, looking into counseling psychology Ph.D. programs would be a better move.

As a counseling psych PhD, I disagree. Our programs have a model of training very similar to most clinical programs; "counseling psych" is not shorthand for "counseling-focused" and is definitely not copacetic with a "research is yucky" position.

 

[Megan202]

Well, no. A Harvard MBA still gets you a good job. My point is that you cannot assume debt will not matter and that all programs are the same or will give you that same job prospects. Look at APA internship percentages for the schools you are considering and realize that there has been the suggestion that APA accredited internships should be a requirement for state licensure incur future. Will that happen before you finish and are licensed? I don't know. However, it is not a chance I would take. The point is this. Whatever your personal views on research ad traditional programs, not having that background will reduce your job options in the future.

Ah, got it. See, I know APA accredited internships are important. But then I start wondering... How important? Is it important for what I want to be doing? They may have a low match rate but can I be that X% that DOES get an APA internship?

You're comment about APA becoming a requirement does concern me though. Personally, I think it SHOULD be. I mean, if you can't get an internship that's respected how are you going to be able to trusted with clients? You're right- it may not be a chance that I am willing to take. Maybe aiming to be that X% is not the best way to go... lots of thinking and lots of applying to do...

 

[Megan202]

Well to give you a chance at an educated guess on that issue. My program had 9 students in my cohort. CSPP has, what, 100 students? Which one has the better chance if developing a personal relationship with professors? On a personal note, which has the option of being invited to the professors home for class and being treated to pizza? Don't discount the differences in how personalized the experience may be.

Pizza sounds good! Thanks- I haven't been putting much weight on the importance of tiny classes, but I certainly see your point.

I went to the biggest University in the country & some of my classes had 200 people in them (mostly freshman/sophomore level)... & I was still able to build relationships. I still do keep in touch with professors but obviously, this is a while new ball game. 9 just sounds sooo teeny tiny to me!

 

[Sanman]

Ah, got it. See, I know APA accredited internships are important. But then I start wondering... How important? Is it important for what I want to be doing? They may have a low match rate but can I be that X% that DOES get an APA internship?

You're comment about APA becoming a requirement does concern me though. Personally, I think it SHOULD be. I mean, if you can't get an internship that's respected how are you going to be able to trusted with clients? You're right- it may not be a chance that I am willing to take. Maybe aiming to be that X% is not the best way to go... lots of thinking and lots of applying to do...

Just an additional point that was already reinforced above. Most private practice owners will not have a be able to have laser like focus for years and will be generalist for the sake of income. You may decide you want to only work on your area of interest. One job option for you is working at a VA or with the military on a Military Sexual Trauma Unit. However, if you do not have an APA accredited program and internship, you are automatically disqualified from this position for life. The same with some board of prisons job that may have a sexual trauma focus.

Also, don't discount research as having nothing to do with clinical work from a real world standpoint. My dissertation topic was a big reason that I was hired for both of my positions. My work has clinical applications and people were interested in hiring me because of my knowledge in that area.

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

As a counseling psych PhD, I disagree. Our programs have a model of training very similar to most clinical programs; "counseling psych" is not shorthand for "counseling-focused" and is definitely not copacetic with a "research is yucky" position.

I do apologize, you are right, my statement was pretty broad in nature. I think if she is wanting to develop a nice array of counseling methods, a counseling program would be ideal. Sorry for the overgeneralization 😛.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Pizza sounds good! Thanks- I haven't been putting much weight on the importance of tiny classes, but I certainly see your point.

I went to the biggest University in the country & some of my classes had 200 people in them (mostly freshman/sophomore level)... & I was still able to build relationships. I still do keep in touch with professors but obviously, this is a while new ball game. 9 just sounds sooo teeny tiny to me!

It's a large shift from undergrad (particularly at a large university) to grad school, yes. But I'd say that if an advisor has more than a handful of students, she/he is going to have a very difficult time truly fostering their professional training/growth based on the significant amount of in-depth knowledge that's required in this field. Also, while you may have been able to build relationships in a 200-person class, how well did you know the professor? How likely would that professor have been to spend hours on end with you in individual clinical supervision and research mentoring? And how much better would you have known him/her if there had instead been 10 people in the class?

And yes, there does seem to be a push to have APA accreditation be a requisite for licensure, although ultimately that will be up to each individual state. Still, as WisNeuro mentioned, not having an APA-accredited internship automatically bars you from employment at the VA and many other federal and state agencies (e.g., the federal board of prisons). And it makes you less-competitive for formal postdoctoral fellowships, which are becoming the norm in various specialty areas (e.g., neuropsych, health psych, trauma, rehab).

 

[Megan202]

Just an additional point that was already reinforced above. Most private practice owners will not have a be able to have laser like focus for years and will be generalist for the sake of income. You may decide you want to only work on your area of interest. One job option for you is working at a VA or with the military on a Military Sexual Trauma Unit. However, if you do not have an APA accredited program and internship, you are automatically disqualified from this position for life. The same with some board of prisons job that may have a sexual trauma focus.

Also, don't discount research as having nothing to do with clinical work from a real world standpoint. My dissertation topic was a big reason that I was hired for both of my positions. My work has clinical applications and people were interested in hiring me because of my knowledge in that area.

Okay, got it. I don't want to be forced to do anything because of a lack of income so that bit of information is useful to me. So what I'm getting from all of this is realistically, I'll NEED an APA accredited internship. Realistically, my chances of landing one through CSPP are slim... I'm going to have to do my research on USC & UCSB... It's just those damn GRE scores that worry me.

Thank you!!

 

[CogNeuroGuy]

Okay, got it. I don't want to be forced to do anything because of a lack of income so that bit of information is useful to me. So what I'm getting from all of this is realistically, I'll NEED an APA accredited internship. Realistically, my chances of landing one through CSPP are slim... I'm going to have to do my research on USC & UCSB... It's just those damn GRE scores that worry me.

Thank you!!

Hi Megan,

It sounds like (at least from your initial post) that you have good grades, some volunteer work and a passion for helping people. How keen are you on obtaining the title of psychologist over the scope of practice you are wanting to do (having the title of psychologist v. social worker or counselor)? The reason why I ask is, possibly going through a LPC or social work route could put you where you want to be as far as the day-to-day work, environment and scope of who you treat. How important is salary to you? Are you willing to go through a very science-centered general psychology master's program prior to applying to a doctoral program in clinical or counseling psychology to boost your competitiveness and research basis?

 

[cara susanna]

I would like to reiterate the above suggestions that you avoid programs with bad APA match rates. I attend a balanced PhD program that produces more clinicians than researchers. Also, speaking as someone who both researches sexual assault and works with sexual assault survivors, there is no evidence that PE is harmful. It does increase PTSD symptoms at first, but they improve as the process continues. In fact, research has examined PE with trauma patients who have suicidal/self-harm tendencies and found that it does not increase self-harm behavior or suicide attempts.

I would STRONGLY suggest that you look outside of California for programs. Restricting yourself geographically is a surefire way to hurt your chances of being admitted. Furthermore, if you want balanced programs with a specific focus (trauma, it sounds like?), you will have to look outside of one particular state. Getting admitted somewhere is all about fit.