Pt disputing bill

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CaliCatheter

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Have you guys ever had a pt dispute the anesthesia time portion of the bill due to a lack of OR efficiency? For example, you put the pt to sleep and then OR staff realizes some instruments need more time for sterilization so now case is delayed...
 
Have you guys ever had a pt dispute the anesthesia time portion of the bill due to a lack of OR efficiency? For example, you put the pt to sleep and then OR staff realizes some instruments need more time for sterilization so now case is delayed...

How would the Pt know there was any delay? It’s not like a given procedure is guaranteed to be completed in a set time.
 
If its a plastics case you can maybe offer a discount or if insurance paid well...perhaps a discount.

I would be unclear as to why the patient would know. Typically EOBs say nothing about anesthesia time.
 
Side question: how do you charge cash-paying OR cases? Based on hours or Units?
 
I think this is potentially a big problem. We have surgeons that want patients asleep while they are still closing a previous case. Sometimes things happen and the patient may be prepped and draped for 30 minutes or more before the surgeon shows. It's not fair (legal?) for the patient to have to pay for that time. The paradox is that these are usually our fastest surgeons who will often still get the case done in less time than some of the other surgeons. Yeah, before you ask, it's always ortho.
 
Patient can easily know if they're awake in the room and waiting to go to sleep before the instrument gets there. Maybe even a MAC case or a block case.
 
I think this is potentially a big problem. We have surgeons that want patients asleep while they are still closing a previous case. Sometimes things happen and the patient may be prepped and draped for 30 minutes or more before the surgeon shows. It's not fair (legal?) for the patient to have to pay for that time. The paradox is that these are usually our fastest surgeons who will often still get the case done in less time than some of the other surgeons. Yeah, before you ask, it's always ortho.
Like many things, the minute we're not paid for it is when we stop doing it. Our total joint operation is a well-oiled machine - pt in OR 1, pt rolling into OR 2 to get prepped and draped, next pt for OR 1 getting their spinal in pre-op. Surgeon has his PAs close in OR 1 and goes straight to OR 2 where the pt is ready. Pt in OR1 goes to PACU, and the nurse goes straight to pre-op to pick up the next pt who has just finished getting their SAB +/- blocks. It helps that the surgeon's average time on a joint is about 15-20 minutes and has zero interest in downtime.

Now, for surgeons who are slow and take too much time between cases, this doesn't work, and we won't do it. I document "pt prepped and draped - waiting for surgeon" whenever we're ready to go and the surgeon isn't in the room.
 
In private sector. My anesthesia colleague disputed one of the bills for his wife in vitro/egg retrieval anesthesia bills.

He busted the large private practice group anesthesia times cause they added an extra 15 minutes preop time. Mind u it’s cash only rate at $90 per 15 minutes agreed time. It adds up.

Sneaky things private groups do to add more revenue. Just like attorneys fudge billlable hours.

They wouldn’t budge. Finally he threaten to report them to medical board. My my. How quickly the $90 was dropped from the final bill. Waste of time of both my colleague part and anesthesia company arguing over $90. They both wouldn’t budge.

But money is money. $90 is $90 especially when it’s your money.
 
Like many things, the minute we're not paid for it is when we stop doing it. Our total joint operation is a well-oiled machine - pt in OR 1, pt rolling into OR 2 to get prepped and draped, next pt for OR 1 getting their spinal in pre-op. Surgeon has his PAs close in OR 1 and goes straight to OR 2 where the pt is ready. Pt in OR1 goes to PACU, and the nurse goes straight to pre-op to pick up the next pt who has just finished getting their SAB +/- blocks. It helps that the surgeon's average time on a joint is about 15-20 minutes and has zero interest in downtime.

Now, for surgeons who are slow and take too much time between cases, this doesn't work, and we won't do it. I document "pt prepped and draped - waiting for surgeon" whenever we're ready to go and the surgeon isn't in the room.

The surgeon doesn't talk to the family, see the next patient, eat, drink, piss, dictate an op note or wander around?
 
The surgeon doesn't talk to the family, see the next patient, eat, drink, piss, dictate an op note or wander around?
In private sector. My anesthesia colleague disputed one of the bills for his wife in vitro/egg retrieval anesthesia bills.

He busted the large private practice group anesthesia times cause they added an extra 15 minutes preop time. Mind u it’s cash only rate at $90 per 15 minutes agreed time. It adds up.

Sneaky things private groups do to add more revenue. Just like attorneys fudge billlable hours.

They wouldn’t budge. Finally he threaten to report them to medical board. My my. How quickly the $90 was dropped from the final bill. Waste of time of both my colleague part and anesthesia company arguing over $90. They both wouldn’t budge.

But money is money. $90 is $90 especially when it’s your money.
Your colleague must be a man of principle. I probably would not bother for 90$.

Side note: why add preop time? It would be easier to add extra post-surgical time to make up a unit. Usually 6 minutes is enough for the last unit. Not say you should do it, but since one is committing a fraud, why not do it in a "PROFESSIONAL" way?
 
The surgeon doesn't talk to the family, see the next patient, eat, drink, piss, dictate an op note or wander around?
Half his patients for the day are in pre-op by 5am. He sees all of those and marks them before he does his first case. Sometime after the first few cases he will drop by pre-op and mark any others that have come in. Don't know when or if he sees the family post-op. He frequently goes straight out of one OR, scrubs, and right into the next OR where the patient is draped and ready to go. He's all business and wants to get in and get his work done. He'll do 12-14 total joints by 3pm and patients walk out of the hospital or outpatient center 3-4 hours post-op.
 
In private sector. My anesthesia colleague disputed one of the bills for his wife in vitro/egg retrieval anesthesia bills.

He busted the large private practice group anesthesia times cause they added an extra 15 minutes preop time. Mind u it’s cash only rate at $90 per 15 minutes agreed time. It adds up.

Sneaky things private groups do to add more revenue. Just like attorneys fudge billlable hours.

They wouldn’t budge. Finally he threaten to report them to medical board. My my. How quickly the $90 was dropped from the final bill. Waste of time of both my colleague part and anesthesia company arguing over $90. They both wouldn’t budge.

But money is money. $90 is $90 especially when it’s your money.
With self-pay patients, especially things like in vitro and cosmetic work, you can basically charge any way you want and as much or as little as you want. Not being able to charge for pre-op time and many other billing practices only apply for private insurance / CMS patients. He would have gained nothing reporting them to the medical board unless some state law or regulation was broken, which I doubt is the case. Now, if they're getting insured coverage for in vitro procedures, that's totally different.
 
Sounds like a hospital/surg center problem to me. If you took them to the OR and were providing anesthesia care, under the belief that the case was ready to go, then you get paid. If they have an argument, it is with whoever contaminated the equipment or mislead you to believe the case was ready...
 
With self-pay patients, especially things like in vitro and cosmetic work, you can basically charge any way you want and as much or as little as you want. Not being able to charge for pre-op time and many other billing practices only apply for private insurance / CMS patients. He would have gained nothing reporting them to the medical board unless some state law or regulation was broken, which I doubt is the case. Now, if they're getting insured coverage for in vitro procedures, that's totally different.

Per CMS guidelines...anesthesia time begins when continous care of the patient starts..prior to entering the OR. If its 15 mins or more...you should document a reason (difficult IV...sedation...etc). So if he charged for 15 mins...its not necessarily a violation automatically. Although it appears a bit aggressive
 
Half his patients for the day are in pre-op by 5am. He sees all of those and marks them before he does his first case. Sometime after the first few cases he will drop by pre-op and mark any others that have come in. Don't know when or if he sees the family post-op. He frequently goes straight out of one OR, scrubs, and right into the next OR where the patient is draped and ready to go. He's all business and wants to get in and get his work done. He'll do 12-14 total joints by 3pm and patients walk out of the hospital or outpatient center 3-4 hours post-op.
Not to be creepy but did this surgeon's last name start with a D? When I was a premed, I worked with a guy EXACTLY as you described and then he moved down to the general location you say you practice in. Small world if so.
 
Per CMS guidelines...anesthesia time begins when continous care of the patient starts..prior to entering the OR. If its 15 mins or more...you should document a reason (difficult IV...sedation...etc). So if he charged for 15 mins...its not necessarily a violation automatically. Although it appears a bit aggressive
It is a violation if he walked away from the patient, which he probably did (and the patient's husband knew).
 
Half his patients for the day are in pre-op by 5am. He sees all of those and marks them before he does his first case. Sometime after the first few cases he will drop by pre-op and mark any others that have come in. Don't know when or if he sees the family post-op. He frequently goes straight out of one OR, scrubs, and right into the next OR where the patient is draped and ready to go. He's all business and wants to get in and get his work done. He'll do 12-14 total joints by 3pm and patients walk out of the hospital or outpatient center 3-4 hours post-op.


As a resident in an academic center where a joint can take 2-3 hours this sounds like utter witchcraft to me. 12-15 a joint. Insane.
 
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