question about lower tier md/phd programs

[dave613]

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What do you guys know about how much research experience incoming students have at MSTPs like stony brook, upstate, Buffalo etc.?

I guess I am concerned about this because by the time I apply for md/phd I will only have had 1 semester of research+ 2 summers of research+ maybe 2 months more of research into interview time. And finally, I will have been a TA for a semester, and have had a 6 month internship at an ER. I am seriously considering md/phd, but I don't want to apply to programs such as the ones I mentioned above unless I know I will have a decent shot of getting into one of the lower tiers, not necessarily the ones i mentioned above.

On a side note, I am majoring in biology, and minoring in chem and philosophy, and i currently have a gpa of about a 3.9.

Thanks guys,

P.S. if you know of anyone who got into lower tier, could you give me a ballpark figure of how I compare to incoming students?

 

[randallB]

You could consider doing some research after graduation. A lot of mstpers take time off to get additional research experience before applying/entering a program. A year's worth of your time could make admission to a top school easier...just something to consider.

 

[Puzzlebox]

I sort of agree with randallp....I don't know how strong you feel about research, but if you are seriously interested in attending an MSTP make sure you are doing it because you absolutely love research. I know I don't have to tell you this, but MSTP is a serious time committment 3-5 years for pHD, 4 years for MD, and another X years for residency. Don't let your main motivation for attending one of these pregrams be the free ride and stipend that you are provided. I am about to start my M1 year and was considering (I guess i am still considering it) doing an MSTP at my school, but I am going to wait until after my first year to commit to it for two reasons: 1. I have not yet completed my thesis (I have finished all of the coursework towards a master's degree in Clinical Laboratory Science) and the MSTP requires that I finish it first and 2. I have already spoken to two medical students at my school who entered the MSTP and then quit (they were both working on their pHDs for three years before deciding just to get the MD!! The stressed to me that I should make sure I absolutely love research before I commit to such and endeavor because my school also requires it's MSTP students to complete their pHDs before completing the MD. Also in your case with your stellar grades and provided you score well on the MCAT, having more research experience than you already do will really help you get into a top tier MSTP, MD/pHD program!!!! Just my nickels and dimes!!! Good luck!
Puzzlebox

 

[dave613]

I sort of agree with randallp....I don't know how strong you feel about research, but if you are seriously interested in attending an MSTP make sure you are doing it because you absolutely love research. I know I don't have to tell you this, but MSTP is a serious time committment 3-5 years for pHD, 4 years for MD, and another X years for residency. Don't let your main motivation for attending one of these pregrams be the free ride and stipend that you are provided. I am about to start my M1 year and was considering (I guess i am still considering it) doing an MSTP at my school, but I am going to wait until after my first year to commit to it for two reasons: 1. I have not yet completed my thesis (I have finished all of the coursework towards a master's degree in Clinical Laboratory Science) and the MSTP requires that I finish it first and 2. I have already spoken to two medical students at my school who entered the MSTP and then quit (they were both working on their pHDs for three years before deciding just to get the MD!! The stressed to me that I should make sure I absolutely love research before I commit to such and endeavor because my school also requires it's MSTP students to complete their pHDs before completing the MD. Also in your case with your stellar grades and provided you score well on the MCAT, having more research experience than you already do will really help you get into a top tier MSTP, MD/pHD program!!!! Just my nickels and dimes!!! Good luck!
Puzzlebox

Thanks for the honest response. Actually, I have a clear conception of the time commitment, and I am willing to undertake it because I do love research. I was once upon a time thinking about taking off a year to do research, but then doesn't that mean I have to push off my MCATs until the april of my senior year?
Also, I appreciate the nice comment about my gpa and all, but I am actually very concerned about even getting into a lower tier program? Do you think that if I did not take off for a year that I would have a shot at getting into a suny school, assuming that I do well on my MCATs?

thanks

 

[tofurious]

I know a few people who did their combined degrees at Downstate (?) and I think you'd definitely be competitive in that range (NY state universities) given the GPA and current research profile.

It is a misconception that you need to have done PhD quality research before you apply to MSTP/MD-PhD programs. What you need is sufficient exposure to research in both depth and breadth, and the easiest way to demonstrate that is through publications or poster presentations. However, these are hardly the only ways.

Also, don't take to heart all these I-dropped-out-of-MD-PhD horror stories. People drop out for different reasons. Some people were never in it for the right reason, and some people were unlucky. There is no way to predict how things will happen to you until you are there. You only need to worry if the school you are going to has a higher attrition rate than graduation rate.

 

[dave613]

I know a few people who did their combined degrees at Downstate (?) and I think you'd definitely be competitive in that range (NY state universities) given the GPA and current research profile.

It is a misconception that you need to have done PhD quality research before you apply to MSTP/MD-PhD programs. What you need is sufficient exposure to research in both depth and breadth, and the easiest way to demonstrate that is through publications or poster presentations. However, these are hardly the only ways.

Also, don't take to heart all these I-dropped-out-of-MD-PhD horror stories. People drop out for different reasons. Some people were never in it for the right reason, and some people were unlucky. There is no way to predict how things will happen to you until you are there. You only need to worry if the school you are going to has a higher attrition rate than graduation rate.

Thanks for the response. Are you in any md/phd program right now? Also, I am seriously considering taking off a year to do research since I want to "make sure" I am competitive at the lower tiers and maybe even upper ones like nyu and mount sinai or columbia.

 

[tofurious]

Thanks for the response. Are you in any md/phd program right now?

No, I graduated with both degrees already. I am not a big fan of taking a year off just to boost your application because if you are a good enough candidate next year, you are likely good enough this year even without the extra year. If you have suboptimal GPA and MCAT AND insufficient research experience, taking a year off would be the obvious choice. However, if your overall application looks good, I doubt that you need to take a year off (the "top" programs will take people on a relatively random basis, and publishing in Nature and Science within the next year will not guarantee you into these programs).

 

[dave613]

No, I graduated with both degrees already. I am not a big fan of taking a year off just to boost your application because if you are a good enough candidate next year, you are likely good enough this year even without the extra year. If you have suboptimal GPA and MCAT AND insufficient research experience, taking a year off would be the obvious choice. However, if your overall application looks good, I doubt that you need to take a year off (the "top" programs will take people on a relatively random basis, and publishing in Nature and Science within the next year will not guarantee you into these programs).

Well let's say my gpa and mcat are good, but I have insufficient research experience. Do you still think I shouldn't take off another year? again i would be happy getting into the lower tiers, so would less than a year of research and good mcat and gpa get me into the lower tier? what would you do in this situation? Also, give an example of a suboptimal gpa and mcat. Thanks a lot tofurious, i really appreciate your help.

 

[ImmunoANT]

Well let's say my gpa and mcat are good, but I have insufficient research experience. Do you still think I shouldn't take off another year? again i would be happy getting into the lower tiers, so would less than a year of research and good mcat and gpa get me into the lower tier? what would you do in this situation? Also, give an example of a suboptimal gpa and mcat. Thanks a lot tofurious, i really appreciate your help.

Aim high, Dave. 😀

If you don't try, how will you know? right?

Good luck.

 

[dave613]

Aim high, Dave. 😀

If you don't try, how will you know? right?

Good luck.

Thanks Immuno, but the MD/PhD route is a long one, and although I love doing research, I still don't want to spend 10 years in school before my life begins. Therefore, if it's possible that I don't have to take off the extra year, I would be very willing. But, if i have to do an extra year, I am willing to do it just as long as it will seriously increase my shot at admissions.

 

[ImmunoANT]

First of all, life doesn't have to wait for the completion of your education to begin. Education is a life-long process. And I consider doing MD/PhD the beginning of my career (although I haven't figured exactly what I want to do with it 😛 )
Taking time off isn't that bad. I took 2 years off after college and worked at NIH. I have to say these 2 years are so far the best time of my life. I learned so much in science, in research, made lots of friends, met tons of cool people including some world class immunologists, and no doubt, it did help me a lot on my application. If I could start over, I'd do it again.
Dave, seriously, don't sell yourself short. You have great GPA, excellent EC (so much better than mine), and I guess you will also kick a$$ on MCAT. So that's good. Now regarding your research experience, quality is always more important than quantity when you can't have both. You have to have a very thorough understanding of your project, have to be able to sustain a decent scientific discussion with other people (e.g your MSTP interviewers. I was pimped so many times during interview 😱 , but they were fun ). I don't know about you. To me, I can't become like that with a 2-month summer research. But maybe you can.
I think no one can tell you what to do except for you. You, after all, are the one who knows the best about yourself. But still I'm going to say again. Aim high! And try. 👍

 

[dave613]

Thanks Immuno, I really appreciate your honest responses. I actually want to take off for a year because I feel that I would really enjoy doing research, besides the fact that it would help me out on the application.

Anyhow, I appreciate all of your help seriously, and by the way congrats on upenn--now that's beyond me!lol

thanks again,
dave

 

[tofurious]

If I were you, I would not take a year off at all. You have 4 years to do research during your PhD years, and you might as well make the years you enjoy count towards something other than pure enjoyment.

The most practical thing is to apply to both MSTP programs AND post-bac programs as your back-up plans. If you get into an MSTP program of your choice, nobody would blame you for not going to the post-bac programs. If you don't get into an MSTP programs, you'll have a clear idea (through interviews and word-of-mouth) of which programs should be your top choices and best chances next year and you can focus on those with your extra year of research experience.

 

[dave613]

If I were you, I would not take a year off at all. You have 4 years to do research during your PhD years, and you might as well make the years you enjoy count towards something other than pure enjoyment.

The most practical thing is to apply to both MSTP programs AND post-bac programs as your back-up plans. If you get into an MSTP program of your choice, nobody would blame you for not going to the post-bac programs. If you don't get into an MSTP programs, you'll have a clear idea (through interviews and word-of-mouth) of which programs should be your top choices and best chances next year and you can focus on those with your extra year of research experience.

I agree. Thank you very much Tofurious for all of your help seriously.
dave

 

[SaltySqueegee]

First of all, life doesn't have to wait for the completion of your education to begin. Education is a life-long process. And I consider doing MD/PhD the beginning of my career (although I haven't figured exactly what I want to do with it 😛 )

Exactly, don't forget that you are living life right now! Even though I'm only in the beginning stages of the program, doing the MD/PhD route will allow for a more fulfilling education. Not just a crap-load of random facts. I'll be able to investigate the substance and research that goes into making Modern Medicine so successful. Yes, it is approximately twice as long as just the MD route, but if you like it, it won't necessarily seem like work.

... And after completing my first PhD lab rotation, let me tell you, it is much better than undergrad research. Much, Much better... ...

Best of Luck. 👍 I ditto everyone else, in that you should apply sooner than later. The application cycle is ramping up each year (more applicants). Who knows, you may not get into your dream school the following cycle? 😕 👎

 

[dave613]

Exactly, don't forget that you are living life right now! Even though I'm only in the beginning stages of the program, doing the MD/PhD route will allow for a more fulfilling education. Not just a crap-load of random facts. I'll be able to investigate the substance and research that goes into making Modern Medicine so successful. Yes, it is approximately twice as long as just the MD route, but if you like it, it won't necessarily seem like work.

... And after completing my first PhD lab rotation, let me tell you, it is much better than undergrad research. Much, Much better... ...

Best of Luck. 👍 I ditto everyone else, in that you should apply sooner than later. The application cycle is ramping up each year (more applicants). Who knows, you may not get into your dream school the following cycle? 😕 👎

I know Salty, I think I am going to just apply at the end of junior year, since according to most of you i will be competitive at the md/phd program I want to apply to.

Thank you very much for your input.
sincerely,
dave