Question about Shadowing Activity

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Guacamolerat

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Hello all. I was recently completing my AMCAS activities section and am a little stumped on the shadowing section. I have shadowed a wide variety of professions in the service industry, including two MDs, a DMD and DDS, and a couple PAs. My question is, should I list these other professions that are not explicitly MD? The issue is, they'd make up a decent chunk of my hours for the activity. Let me know what y'all think. I have seen people say list them as a way to describe why I chose to pursue MD instead of these other fields, but was looking for further insight. Thank you.
 
I would not. Hopefully you have other clinical experiences that more than make up for a couple dozen hours seeing dental procedures. I think it would be a signal that you are not fully committed and you welcome questions to that effect. You don't want that... I'm sure you would know what to say if you did get the question, but it is the path of least resistance to organize your application around affirmative signals toward medicine.

Remember that your application fits within a genre of writing; you are not obligated to explicitly point out everything you've ever done. Try to coalesce your experiences around medicine in the parts of the application where deviating would be weird. You would not write that you shadowed a lawyer or a race car driver, not because those experiences weren't valuable, but because they weren't relevant. Keep your eyes on the prize.
 
I would not. Hopefully you have other clinical experiences that more than make up for a couple dozen hours seeing dental procedures. I think it would be a signal that you are not fully committed and you welcome questions to that effect. You don't want that... I'm sure you would know what to say if you did get the question, but it is the path of least resistance to organize your application around affirmative signals toward medicine.

Remember that your application fits within a genre of writing; you are not obligated to explicitly point out everything you've ever done. Try to coalesce your experiences around medicine in the parts of the application where deviating would be weird. You would not write that you shadowed a lawyer or a race car driver, not because those experiences weren't valuable, but because they weren't relevant. Keep your eyes on the prize.
Thank you, that makes sense. That would most likely leave me with around 40 hours of in person shadowing (cardiology/internal medicine, geriatric medicine, radiology, gastroenterology), and 20 of online shadowing through a course provided here at my university. Do you think this would be alright?
 
Thank you, that makes sense. That would most likely leave me with around 40 hours of in person shadowing (cardiology/internal medicine, geriatric medicine, radiology, gastroenterology), and 20 of online shadowing through a course provided here at my university. Do you think this would be alright?

I couldn't say, because I don't know if you have other clinical experiences that can compensate. If you've been working in healthcare for a year or two, I think you will have more grace be extended in your direction... but if your only experiences in a clinical environment were those shadowing hours, it would probably be a different conversation (i.e., are you ready to apply at all, etc).

Another consideration will be acceptability of the online shadowing experience. A couple years post-COVID, I'm not sure that those hours are going to continue to pull weight in admissions the way they did closer to that period of time.
 
I couldn't say, because I don't know if you have other clinical experiences that can compensate. If you've been working in healthcare for a year or two, I think you will have more grace be extended in your direction... but if your only experiences in a clinical environment were those shadowing hours, it would probably be a different conversation (i.e., are you ready to apply at all, etc).
I am currently an undergraduate junior. My clinical experience draws primarily from two activities. I volunteer in an endoscopy unit at a local hospital as well as working as a personal care assistant for an individual with a muscular atrophy disorder. Both of these have been for over a year now. I would say ive been more exposed to the clinical environment through my time volunteering as opposed to shadowing as I worked directly with the nursing staff and outpatients. To be completely honest, I found shadowing to be very passive, which is obviously what it's meant to be, but I felt I learned more about medicine by actually being engaged.
 
I am currently an undergraduate junior. My clinical experience draws primarily from two activities. I volunteer in an endoscopy unit at a local hospital as well as working as a personal care assistant for an individual with a muscular atrophy disorder. Both of these have been for over a year now. I would say ive been more exposed to the clinical environment through my time volunteering as opposed to shadowing as I worked directly with the nursing staff and outpatients. To be completely honest, I found shadowing to be very passive, which is obviously what it's meant to be, but I felt I learned more about medicine by actually being engaged.

Yeah, the legibility of experiences to admissions can be subjective and so I would defer to the advisors, especially seeing as you're a traditional student.

From what I've seen, both activities can deviate from ideal.

Volunteering in GI can be clinical, but there is a line in terms of what you can claim. Obviously you would not be performing the procedure. It's less likely but theoretically possible that you could be doing MA-adjacent work that requires access to PHI (e.g., authorizations, consenting, rooming, obtaining vital signs, medication reconciliation, screening questions, gowning patients, preparing instrument trays, etc.).

That kind of experience would be closest to what admissions would want, but it's unlikely to be believable as a volunteer, because it's skilled, often paid work. I would ask you to clarify what your duties were. But if I'm earnest, I would be listening to scrutinize, because in the 10 years I've worked in medicine across different settings, volunteers never touch patients or patient information for obvious reasons.

It's unfortunate, but sometimes physicians will position themselves as mentors and have us, as student volunteers, carry out tasks that are unsafe and potentially even illegal to perform. While someone in such a position could certainly claim that they understand what it's like to occupy an important role in medicine, admissions are also looking for people who can hold professional boundaries for the sake of the patient's safety and best interest, and so they wouldn't be impressed in such a case.

On the caregiving side, there is a possible question about whether direct patient care outside of the context of diagnosis and treatment (the physician's role) and the exam room are clinical the way they typically define clinical experiences. While there are genuinely clinical tasks possible in this kind of work, it is much less regulated and more variable. There are some people who serve almost like traveling MAs working with a provider and making house calls, but most are helping primarily with the activities of daily living, which is not really the same kind of work. I am imagining some combination of patient sitting, administering medications, maybe preparing meals, and toileting. But I would again ask you to clarify.

Sorry this post got longer than I'd intended. But you can see that it's not as simple as saying whether 40 hours "checks the box" or not.
 
Yeah, the legibility of experiences to admissions can be subjective and so I would defer to the advisors, especially seeing as you're a traditional student.

From what I've seen, both activities can deviate from ideal.

Volunteering in GI can be clinical, but there is a line in terms of what you can claim. Obviously you would not be performing the procedure. It's less likely but theoretically possible that you could be doing MA-adjacent work that requires access to PHI (e.g., authorizations, consenting, rooming, obtaining vital signs, medication reconciliation, screening questions, gowning patients, preparing instrument trays, etc.).

That kind of experience would be closest to what admissions would want, but it's unlikely to be believable as a volunteer, because it's skilled, often paid work. I would ask you to clarify what your duties were. But if I'm earnest, I would be listening to scrutinize, because in the 10 years I've worked in medicine across different settings, volunteers never touch patients or patient information for obvious reasons.

It's unfortunate, but sometimes physicians will position themselves as mentors and have us, as student volunteers, carry out tasks that are unsafe and potentially even illegal to perform. While someone in such a position could certainly claim that they understand what it's like to occupy an important role in medicine, admissions are also looking for people who can hold professional boundaries for the sake of the patient's safety and best interest, and so they wouldn't be impressed in such a case.

On the caregiving side, there is a possible question about whether direct patient care outside of the context of diagnosis and treatment (the physician's role) and the exam room are clinical the way they typically define clinical experiences. While there are genuinely clinical tasks possible in this kind of work, it is much less regulated and more variable. There are some people who serve almost like traveling MAs working with a provider and making house calls, but most are helping primarily with the activities of daily living, which is not really the same kind of work. I am imagining some combination of patient sitting, administering medications, maybe preparing meals, and toileting. But I would again ask you to clarify.

Sorry this post got longer than I'd intended. But you can see that it's not as simple as saying whether 40 hours "checks the box" or not.
Of course, no worries, I greatly appreciate your help. My role in volunteering included outpatient discharge, as in transporting patients to their rides, which I plan to focus on the most as it involved the most direct patient interaction, as well as the general hospital volunteer gig you'd expect to see, like cleaning beds and units, dressing beds, asking patients if they'd like water or snacks, simple things like that. I would never say I overstepped any boundaries with patients, only doing what was necessary and allowed by the hospital (for reference, it's a large university hospital in my area that had a rather serious onboarding process and clearly stated what is allowed and what is not). My role as a PCA is involved with a single fellow student here at my university. As you said, it is focused on different things on each day, but what I do mainly is administering feeding and medication as well as toileting. That's not to say I haven't picked up shifts which involve other interactions, like dressing, showering, getting ready for bed, and learning to use new instruments whenever necessary (for example, a machine that clears the lungs when exposed to smoke).

Edit: When I say personal care assistant, I do not mean working under a physician, I mean working as a caregiver to a person with a disease who requires caregivers. Im not sure if im misreading your final paragraph, but I am not affiliated with any physician, but rather employed under the family through their insurance.
 
Of course, no worries, I greatly appreciate your help. My role in volunteering included outpatient discharge, as in transporting patients to their rides, which I plan to focus on the most as it involved the most direct patient interaction, as well as the general hospital volunteer gig you'd expect to see, like cleaning beds and units, dressing beds, asking patients if they'd like water or snacks, simple things like that. I would never say I overstepped any boundaries with patients, only doing what was necessary and allowed by the hospital (for reference, it's a large university hospital in my area that had a rather serious onboarding process and clearly stated what is allowed and what is not). My role as a PCA is involved with a single fellow student here at my university. As you said, it is focused on different things on each day, but what I do mainly is administering feeding and medication as well as toileting. That's not to say I haven't picked up shifts which involve other interactions, like dressing, showering, getting ready for bed, and learning to use new instruments whenever necessary (for example, a machine that clears the lungs when exposed to smoke).

Edit: When I say personal care assistant, I do not mean working under a physician, I mean working as a caregiver to a person with a disease who requires caregivers. Im not sure if im misreading your final paragraph, but I am not affiliated with any physician, but rather employed under the family through their insurance.

Got it.

In my experience (which I am not claiming is absolute "Truth" by any stretch of the imagination) is that, typically, what admissions prefers to see is some active collaboration as part of the medical team itself. The idea is that you are participating within the context of a "medical visit," not so much working around it.

Because, in medicine, roles are so clearly defined, the kinds of roles at the entry-level that would allow for that kind of patient interaction are very limited. That's why you see every applicant coming in with scribing, MA, CNA, PCT, or EMT experience. Outside of those roles, the possibility of patient contact that would fit the above definition are very unlikely, not necessarily because a person cannot physically administer an injection on someone else, for example, but because it would be improper or unethical given scopes of practice. These rules exist because, in a clinical environment, the public places trust in institutions to ensure that the people they are working with are adequately credentialed and trained to do the work they do.

Physicians, the medical schools that create them, and the institutions that employ them have a vested interest in protecting that trust (or should).

I can understand that it might feel unfair to hear, at the point of applying, that you must necessarily have x, y, z experience in order to apply, and that no other experiences "count," especially if there is no written requirement anywhere. I don't want you to feel like the last few years were a total waste. But there is a certain amount of risk in not conforming, especially when this process is comparative by design.

What I feel I'm writing circles around is saying plainly that your experiences may be interpreted more graciously than I'm predicting here (or not). That part I can't say for sure. What I can say for sure is that they will probably not be as easily interpretable as an MA job for example, which carries fairly uniform expectations. I do think there are reasonable questions to be asked about whether you have an understanding of what you are truly stepping into.

That's not a personal judgment, but it's a very likely question an evaluator would make... and again, without your full application, I can't tell if you have a compelling response to that. This is one of those things that an evaluator cannot just take you at your word for. It has to be materially supported by your experiences.

But let me not get too ahead of myself. I just hope this doesn't land as a shock.
 
Got it.

In my experience (which I am not claiming is absolute "Truth" by any stretch of the imagination) is that, typically, what admissions prefers to see is some active collaboration as part of the medical team itself. The idea is that you are participating within the context of a "medical visit," not so much working around it.

Because, in medicine, roles are so clearly defined, the kinds of roles at the entry-level that would allow for that kind of patient interaction are very limited. That's why you see every applicant coming in with scribing, MA, CNA, PCT, or EMT experience. Outside of those roles, the possibility of patient contact that would fit the above definition are very unlikely, not necessarily because a person cannot physically administer an injection on someone else, for example, but because it would be improper or unethical given scopes of practice. These rules exist because, in a clinical environment, the public places trust in institutions to ensure that the people they are working with are adequately credentialed and trained to do the work they do.

Physicians, the medical schools that create them, and the institutions that employ them have a vested interest in protecting that trust (or should).

I can understand that it might feel unfair to hear, at the point of applying, that you must necessarily have x, y, z experience in order to apply, and that no other experiences "count," especially if there is no written requirement anywhere. I don't want you to feel like the last few years were a total waste. But there is a certain amount of risk in not conforming, especially when this process is comparative by design.

What I feel I'm writing circles around is saying plainly that your experiences may be interpreted more graciously than I'm predicting here (or not). That part I can't say for sure. What I can say for sure is that they will probably not be as easily interpretable as an MA job for example, which carries fairly uniform expectations. I do think there are reasonable questions to be asked about whether you have an understanding of what you are truly stepping into.

That's not a personal judgment, but it's a very likely question an evaluator would make... and again, without your full application, I can't tell if you have a compelling response to that. This is one of those things that an evaluator cannot just take you at your word for. It has to be materially supported by your experiences.

But let me not get too ahead of myself. I just hope this doesn't land as a shock.
No that makes sense, and I completely understand what you are implying. I do obviously hope as I work on my application that adcoms will see and understand why I am pursuing a career in medicine, and obviously cannot explain that with solely 2 of my activities. My PS is centered around the patient physician interaction and being able to build that trust that comes alongside being a physician, and I think a major part of my application is focusing on the humanistic side of things. To quickly list off some things, I volunteer at a nursing home working with residents facing neurological disorders, providing that welcoming environment which makes them feel heard and safe in an undoubtedly difficult period of their life, I work as a teaching assistant for a chemistry lab at my university, working directly with students facing new challenges in the world of ochem, I volunteer as an advisor through a program that provides low-income high school juniors with help in the college application process. I can understand seeking and performing the necessarily cookie cutter formula for getting into medicine, but I also believe that what makes physicians unique is that their background into medicine and their reasons for pursuing medicine are all diverse and unique.
 
Also side question, when listing physicians that I have shadowed, is it alright to put the number of the practice they were at if I do not have their direct phone number?
 
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No that makes sense, and I completely understand what you are implying. I do obviously hope as I work on my application that adcoms will see and understand why I am pursuing a career in medicine, and obviously cannot explain that with solely 2 of my activities. My PS is centered around the patient physician interaction and being able to build that trust that comes alongside being a physician, and I think a major part of my application is focusing on the humanistic side of things. To quickly list off some things, I volunteer at a nursing home working with residents facing neurological disorders, providing that welcoming environment which makes them feel heard and safe in an undoubtedly difficult period of their life, I work as a teaching assistant for a chemistry lab at my university, working directly with students facing new challenges in the world of ochem, I volunteer as an advisor through a program that provides low-income high school juniors with help in the college application process. I can understand seeking and performing the necessarily cookie cutter formula for getting into medicine, but I also believe that what makes physicians unique is that their background into medicine and their reasons for pursuing medicine are all diverse and unique.

Right, and that's all valid. If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that you're not claiming traditionally clinical expertise because you are aware that your activities are not themselves traditionally clinical, and if so, that part makes sense. I also agree that we all end up in medical school from very different paths.

Where I think it could be helpful to do more reflection is figuring out what claims medical schools actually want, and what activities you have that can actually address those claims.

One claim that we've been circling is "I have an intimate understanding of what it means to be a physician, and I'm making a sacrifice I don't take lightly with both eyes open because the work is exciting and rewarding."

There's so much that you have to be able to show to prove that. You have to actually have a clinical job close enough to a physician, first and foremost. You have to actually see what physicians give up to do the job. You have to have some really, really bad days in which you question whether any of this is even really worth it. You have to have a sort of reckoning with yourself and, somehow, find joy and fulfillment despite that. To top it off, you have to have the emotional awareness to understand that this is happening, put it into words, and present it in a professional way that is not self-defeating.

You cannot do that work from the outside. You can do a lot of great work, a lot of good deeds, and I commend you for those. But like I said earlier, we are talking about a genre of writing. I am not entirely convinced that you can support the claims you need to make to be maximally optimized for admissions. To be fair, nobody 100% meets the image of ideal applicant, but I imagine you are here for help identifying areas of improvement.

Also side question, when listing physicians that I have shadowed, is it alright to put the number of the practice they were at if I do not have their direct phone number?

I did that, it was fine.
 
Right, and that's all valid. If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that you're not claiming traditionally clinical expertise because you are aware that your activities are not themselves traditionally clinical, and if so, that part makes sense. I also agree that we all end up in medical school from very different paths.

Where I think it could be helpful to do more reflection is figuring out what claims medical schools actually want, and what activities you have that can actually address those claims.

One claim that we've been circling is "I have an intimate understanding of what it means to be a physician, and I'm making a sacrifice I don't take lightly with both eyes open because the work is exciting and rewarding."

There's so much that you have to be able to show to prove that. You have to actually have a clinical job close enough to a physician, first and foremost. You have to actually see what physicians give up to do the job. You have to have some really, really bad days in which you question whether any of this is even really worth it. You have to have a sort of reckoning with yourself and, somehow, find joy and fulfillment despite that. To top it off, you have to have the emotional awareness to understand that this is happening, put it into words, and present it in a professional way that is not self-defeating.

You cannot do that work from the outside. You can do a lot of great work, a lot of good deeds, and I commend you for those. But like I said earlier, we are talking about a genre of writing. I am not entirely convinced that you can support the claims you need to make to be maximally optimized for admissions. To be fair, nobody 100% meets the image of ideal applicant, but I imagine you are here for help identifying areas of improvement.



I did that, it was fine.
I appreciate your honesty and hope it will guide me as I continue working on my application and hopefully later into the application process. I do have one question, what makes you think volunteering in a hospital setting as not traditionally clinical? I thought clinical experience was direct interaction with patients, and that's what I feel I have dedicated myself to over the past few years. I am not saying you are wrong by any means, just curious on why this specific activity would not be traditionally clinical, and In what way I should frame it as I begin discussing it on my app.
 
I appreciate your honesty and hope it will guide me as I continue working on my application and hopefully later into the application process. I do have one question, what makes you think volunteering in a hospital setting as not traditionally clinical? I thought clinical experience was direct interaction with patients, and that's what I feel I have dedicated myself to over the past few years. I am not saying you are wrong by any means, just curious on why this specific activity would not be traditionally clinical, and In what way I should frame it as I begin discussing it on my app.

Of course. There's an aspect that is competency-based and then there's an aspect that is competition-based.

The competency-based aspect we have discussed already: schools are looking for people who have tested their ambitions. It may not be fair, because not everyone has access to the same opportunities; but for the most part, there is a narrative expectation that you have engrossed yourself sufficiently in medicine to get to the point where you can make the claim I was discussing in my last comment to you. Often you can maximize that narrative by having increasingly responsible positions in medicine over time and claiming that you have been able to see the different rungs on the hierarchy of care and you are now ready to see the next one, which you need to go to medical school to unlock. In your case, you might fall short of that storyline because you never quite got on the ladder, you just stood near it (so to speak).

The competition-based aspect is exactly what it sounds like. When a majority of your peers are getting certain forms of legible experience within a comparative process, not having that experience can come across as less serious. A really crude way to say it is to ask why someone should select you with activities that require inferential leaps to justify admission, when there are at least 100 other candidates that don't have that problem?

One thing that can be really challenging with profiles that deviate from expectations in a lot of different ways is that you are forced to write constant apologies in your application to avoid that question. If you want to make your experiences work, you're going to feel immense pressure to make overreaching claims and overstate your duties. That's real estate on the application where you can't talk about what makes you a good candidate... which means you are punished not only for not participating in the activities expected, but also for having self-awareness of the lack.

I think that the most tragic facet of that pressure is the reality that you can't even really fake it convincingly, though not because you necessarily cannot understand it conceptually or don't know the right words to say. It's just that nearly everyone that will put eyes on your application will have the experience you are sidestepping and, as admissions staff, will easily clock it, because that is a common failure mode across all applicants.

You're not alone, though. I definitely had my own realization at the start of the cycle that I was going to fall short in some critical way. That led me to apply to over 50 schools, which put pressure on me to put out secondaries that were probably not as polished as I would have liked at the time. I do think that hurt me in the final analysis, but had I not received an acceptance, I would have never known what exactly tanked my application.

And that's the rub, right? The rejection letter doesn't come with a rationale. If you posted here that you were rejected, even with a perfect profile, people will still find ways to blame your writing or character retrospectively. So we're applying knowing that we have to do a little mind-reading and risk mitigation ahead of time. That process is what makes this whole thing difficult.
 
And that's the rub, right? The rejection letter doesn't come with a rationale. If you posted here that you were rejected, even with a perfect profile, people will still find ways to blame your writing or character retrospectively. So we're applying knowing that we have to do a little mind-reading and risk mitigation ahead of time. That process is what makes this whole thing difficult.
You encapsulated my entire thought process behind this entire application in a few sentences. I feel every step of this journey so far has been learning to catch up in a losing battle. I hope my odds turn in my favor like they did in yours, and hope some of my other aspects like stats can pull me up where I lack in others. Thank you for this convo.
 
Did you ask here?
 
Did you ask here?
Im going to be completely honest, I am unsure on how to post In that thread.
 
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