Question about tail coverage

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Pod267

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Hello everyone. I had a question about tail coverage. I’m a first year associate about to leave my current employer to another group. I wanted some clarifications in regard to tail coverage.


My current employer uses PICA and my new employer uses a different company (Norcal). I spoke to my PICA agent and it seems like as long as my new employer will provide a retroactive coverage, I don’t have to pay for my tail. Is that correct?

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Hello everyone. I had a question about tail coverage. I’m a first year associate about to leave my current employer to another group. I wanted some clarifications in regard to tail coverage.


My current employer uses PICA and my new employer uses a different company (Norcal). I spoke to my PICA agent and it seems like as long as my new employer will provide a retroactive coverage, I don’t have to pay for my tail. Is that correct?
Lol good luck with that...unless you already negotiated that.
 
Yes, if they do retro, that includes tail. A few hospitals or situations may do this.

If they do claims made (95%) then you can get tail added.

Also, as a seldom considered option, you can do without tail.
I did for a few years when I did 1099 work solo and for a MSG. I was working as a contractor and bought the cheapest state minimums claims policy to satisfy hospitals and ASC (who just wanted coverage minimums... didn't mandate tail). All insurance is a waste of money where the math confirmed you overpay, and I had basically nothing but student loans at that time anyways and no surgery pts from my prior associate job that I knew of being unhappy or having bad outcome. So what is really the risk to me if I put more on loans and skimp on tail insurance? You can't "lose everything" when you have nothing, and it's doubtful the plaintiff side would even proceed once they found out I'm not covered for the case and have neg net worth... unless maybe it was a very strong case (and they'd probably just go after your former employer since they have insurance). PS, this is not advice, just a story of some guy who ended up smart by being dumb back in the day 🙂
 
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I spoke to my PICA agent and it seems like as long as my new employer will provide a retroactive coverage, I don’t have to pay for my tail. Is that correct?
Yes this is correct. Retro coverage is the way to go without having to pay for tail coverage. I did the exact same when I left my associate job after about 15 months to open my practice. So I am speaking from fist hand experience and not hearsay.
 
Find out if your new employer is providing "occurrence" or "claims made" malpractice insurance. "Occurrence" is more expensive and will cover your tail. If they provide only "claims made", you may be in a pickle. And depending what state you practice is, it can get very expensive for you.
 
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Find out if your new employer is providing "occurrence" or "claims made" malpractice insurance. "Claims made" is more expensive and will cover your tail. If they provide only "occurrence", you may be in a pickle. And depending what state you practice is, it can get very expensive for you.

I think it's the other way around.
 
Yes this is correct. Retro coverage is the way to go without having to pay for tail coverage. I did the exact same when I left my associate job after about 15 months to open my practice. So I am speaking from fist hand experience and not hearsay.
Is the cost/premium of the malpractice higher with retro coverage vs one without?
 
Find out if your new employer is providing "occurrence" or "claims made" malpractice insurance. "Claims made" is more expensive and will cover your tail. If they provide only "occurrence", you may be in a pickle. And depending what state you practice is, it can get very expensive for you.
Yeah I think other way around....I get confused all the time. I always say if I were an associate I would negotiate the more expensive one that lets me leave without paying a tail. Pay the difference. Protects your butt.
 
Resurrecting this thread...I'm currently looking at having to pay for tail coverage. Has anyone shopped around and found any companies that might be cheaper than PICA for tail? They're quoting me $15K, which seems a bit high to me, but it goes back like 10 years. I was hoping more like $8-10K, but I'm sure it all varies depending on the state you have been practicing in, etc. Anyways, anyone have any input?
 
Use an insurance broker. They shop around with a bunch of companies for you. PICA will be the highest quote you get. Literally any other company who provides tail coverage to Podiatrists (not all do), will be cheaper than PICA.
 
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Resurrecting this thread...I'm currently looking at having to pay for tail coverage. Has anyone shopped around and found any companies that might be cheaper than PICA for tail? They're quoting me $15K, which seems a bit high to me, but it goes back like 10 years. I was hoping more like $8-10K, but I'm sure it all varies depending on the state you have been practicing in, etc. Anyways, anyone have any input?

You can also inquire whether your new employer's malpractice carrier can give you prior acts coverage (this is an alternative option to purchasing tail coverage)
 
Many companies are lower than PICA while you are insured. In my experience switching from PICA though to another company for a tail would have been much more expensive. Average cost of a tail (with your current company) is 2 years of your most recent premium. Shop around, but do not be shocked if PICA comes out lower.
 
Many companies are lower than PICA while you are insured. In my experience switching from PICA though to another company for a tail would have been much more expensive. Average cost of a tail (with your current company) is 2 years of your most recent premium. Shop around, but do not be shocked if PICA comes out lower.
Alright, thanks, that's good to know. I wondered how much it mattered to switch companies...
 
Resurrecting this thread...I'm currently looking at having to pay for tail coverage. Has anyone shopped around and found any companies that might be cheaper than PICA for tail? They're quoting me $15K, which seems a bit high to me, but it goes back like 10 years. I was hoping more like $8-10K, but I'm sure it all varies depending on the state you have been practicing in, etc. Anyways, anyone have any input?
15k for 10 years. Be happy...
 
Resurrecting this thread...I'm currently looking at having to pay for tail coverage. Has anyone shopped around and found any companies that might be cheaper than PICA for tail? They're quoting me $15K, which seems a bit high to me, but it goes back like 10 years. I was hoping more like $8-10K, but I'm sure it all varies depending on the state you have been practicing in, etc. Anyways, anyone have any input?
15k for 10 years. Be happy
Use an insurance broker. They shop around with a bunch of companies for you. PICA will be the highest quote you get. Literally any other company who provides tail coverage to Podiatrists (not all do), will be cheaper than PICA.
Yes PICA is terrible. Literally the worst.


Holy crap I just did a multi quote who is the idiot sandwich now @dtrack22
 
Looking back I should have shopped around while I was insured. There are usually companies that are less expensive than PICA that have do not settle clauses. It is just like car insurance sort of in a way and there is usually no reason not to go with lowest rate for the same coverage. Podiatrists are often very loyal to PICA.

The problem is there are only about 5 companies that do stand alone podiatry tails. More companies to shop from if you are changing companies while still insured or do a nose with a new policy.

The other stand alone companies were 15K-45K more than my PICA tail

A broker told me you can put a request for a price that is about 25 percent less than your PICA tail quote just to see if they bite…..and occasionally they do, but not that often.

I had a clean claims history and no really upset patients that I was aware of. The thing is one BS board compliant by a mentally off patient can sometimes cost as much as your entire tail policy to defend (I was actually part of a case like this that did not involve me). That alone is why the broker said having a tail might be worth it even if you are not very high worth and live in a state where they can not touch your home and car etc.
 
Looking back I should have shopped around while I was insured. There are usually companies that are less expensive than PICA that have do not settle clauses. It is just like car insurance sort of in a way and there is usually no reason not to go with lowest rate for the same coverage. Podiatrists are often very loyal to PICA.

The problem is there are only about 5 companies that do stand alone podiatry tails. More companies to shop from if you are changing companies while still insured or do a nose with a new policy.

The other stand alone companies were 15K-45K more than my PICA tail

A broker told me you can put a request for a price that is about 25 percent less than your PICA tail quote just to see if they bite…..and occasionally they do, but not that often.

I had a clean claims history and no really upset patients that I was aware of. The thing is one BS board compliant by a mentally off patient can sometimes cost as much as your entire tail policy to defend (I was actually part of a case like this that did not involve me). That alone is why the broker said having a tail might be worth it even if you are not very high worth and live in a state where they can not touch your home and car etc.
Yeah...really sucks---I have zero fear of being sued for the 10 years I've been in practice...but then again I have no idea what goes on in the minds of some of these people, so just gotta go ahead and spend the money as a hedge against mental illness. Stupid world we live in lol.
 
Yeah...really sucks---I have zero fear of being sued for the 10 years I've been in practice...but then again I have no idea what goes on in the minds of some of these people, so just gotta go ahead and spend the money as a hedge against mental illness. Stupid world we live in lol.

I agree. When I left my prior job, I bought tail anyways granted it was relatively cheap and is lifelong because I rather pay a premium now than to deal with a nut job who may complain of a random pain 5-10 years after a surgery.
 
I agree. When I left my prior job, I bought tail anyways granted it was relatively cheap and is lifelong because I rather pay a premium now than to deal with a nut job who may complain of a random pain 5-10 years after a surgery.

10 years out from surgery? What about medical malpractice statute of limitations?
 
10 years out from surgery? What about medical malpractice statute of limitations?
Some companies offered tails of varying lengths, PICA only offered a lifetime tail for the dates involved.

So some tails did not cover everything that could potentially come up later like minors and there are certain situations where the courts can extend the statue of limitations.
 
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I did 4 months of locum work with a hospital that I ultimately signed on with for a permanent position. I had liability insurance through the locums company during this 4 month period.

Do you think I need to purchase a tail insurance policy for this 4 month period? Or do you think the hospital would lump this time in with my tail policy since I am now working for them permanently?

I have emailed the hospital about this but waiting on their response. Was curious to know if anyone had any insight.
 
10 years out from surgery? What about medical malpractice statute of limitations?
I exaggerated. I forgot what the statuete is, 3 years I believe. It was only $5k and it’s for life so I did it.
 
I exaggerated. I forgot what the statuete is, 3 years I believe. It was only $5k and it’s for life so I did it.
Well, they told me it covered all the way back to 2012--and it's actually $18K (they told me 15K over the phone but apparently it went up lol). Anyways, I should find out if they offer something more like 3-5 years back instead...
 
I did 4 months of locum work with a hospital that I ultimately signed on with for a permanent position. I had liability insurance through the locums company during this 4 month period.

Do you think I need to purchase a tail insurance policy for this 4 month period? Or do you think the hospital would lump this time in with my tail policy since I am now working for them permanently?

I have emailed the hospital about this but waiting on their response. Was curious to know if anyone had any insight.
Well, they told me it covered all the way back to 2012--and it's actually $18K (they told me 15K over the phone but apparently it went up lol). Anyways, I should find out if they offer something more like 3-5 years back instead...
Not sure if you can choose how far back. I think they all cover that part. It is how many years into the future you want that coverage.

As with most things all states have different statues, and exceptions for different situations also like minors, mentally disabled and late discovery of a problem.
 
On the topic of PICA what are you guys experiences and opinions on them vs other malpractice carriers? Curious on how good they are when it comes to claims, responsiveness, and cost. They are supposedly touted as being the best at our conferences.Are there better carriers and if so why
 
On the topic of PICA what are you guys experiences and opinions on them vs other malpractice carriers? Curious on how good they are when it comes to claims, responsiveness, and cost. They are supposedly touted as being the best at our conferences.Are there better carriers and if so why
I think they are a well enough run company and use attorneys familiar with podiatry for obvious reasons in each market that they have a contract with for a discounted rate.

You can get a do not settle clause with other carriers that they like to promote also.

Think of it like car insurance there are many good companies that are A rated etc and a few that it is best to avoid unless you only care about price ( you usually get what you pay for).

They do some nice things for the profession, but kind of leverage that and you might overpay a bit.

Podiatry only has so many choices. Many that do shop around can get a policy from another equally good company for less. Like I have said……the car insurance or home owners analogy…..do you shop around every couple years, if not you could probably save if you had a broker check or asked your savvy friends who they were insured with.

I have heard of a few others going over to MedPro, but get a broker and shop them all.
 
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Thanks.
Anyone with experience if there is a claim or case do they do a good job?
 
I had liability insurance through the locums company during this 4 month period.

Do you think I need to purchase a tail insurance policy for this 4 month period? Or do you think the hospital would lump this time in with my tail policy since I am now working for them permanently?

The locums company had an occurrence policy on you. No need to get tail. It covers anything that happened while you were under that policy, forever.
 
On the topic of PICA what are you guys experiences and opinions on them vs other malpractice carriers?

PICA is a good insurance company. They easily cost the most. The question is, how much is the higher premium worth? I was happy to pay less and be covered by someone like The Doctors Company or MedPro. Of course someone will inevitably post a story about how PICA saved them, or something else similarly “feel good.” The reality is that you are highly unlikely to need them and in the case that you do, they all navigate malpractice cases against surgeons on a regular basis and I think you’d be hard pressed to definitively say one of these companies is worth paying a premium for.
 
Yeah, I guess PICA is good--thankfully never had to use their services up to this point--they have faithfully taken my premium payments though. Also I've benefited going to their lectures at podiatry conferences and having the fear of God put into me.
 
One of the biggest benefits of PICA is Administrative Defense Coverage. It provides $100,000 in coverage if you have action against your license or are denied or revoked hospital privileges. They also have a network administrative defense lawyers. You never need it until you do! And if you think other insurers cover this, read the fine print. Your legal costs in these instances is totally out of pocket.

ABPM has not experienced a single instance in which a non-PICA insurer actually covered the cost of a privileging dispute. For example, we had a recent case in Virginia where a Diplomate's privileges were revoked and MedPro refused to provide coverage and representation, despite their assurance to the DPM that they had a version of administrative defense.
 
One of the biggest benefits of PICA is Administrative Defense Coverage. It provides $100,000 in coverage if you have action against your license or are denied or revoked hospital privileges. They also have a network administrative defense lawyers. You never need it until you do! And if you think other insurers cover this, read the fine print. Your legal costs in these instances is totally out of pocket.

ABPM has not experienced a single instance in which a non-PICA insurer actually covered the cost of a privileging dispute. For example, we had a recent case in Virginia where a Diplomate's privileges were revoked and MedPro refused to provide coverage and representation, despite their assurance to the DPM that they had a version of administrative defense.
And if you need more than 25k then you have bigger problems than your license being revoked...
 
Doctors company here
 
On the topic of PICA what are you guys experiences and opinions on them vs other malpractice carriers? Curious on how good they are when it comes to claims, responsiveness, and cost. They are supposedly touted as being the best at our conferences.Are there better carriers and if so why
All of the companies will settle.
That is my own exp and that of many surgical docs I have learned from or am buds with. It is rare to have any DPM who does weekly OR work and hasn't had at least one or two settlements. The large settlements or judgments are the only ones that are truly problematic (future rates, possible licensing or hospital troubles, etc), and that's because those basically flag that the doc was clearly in the wrong... found so by trial or large settlement basically indicates they very likely would've been.

I had one claim back near the start of my career (flatfoot/Lapidus... pt healed fine, re-lapsed into drugs after I'd left the practice... owner doc kicked her out for drug seeking... and she sued both of us). It was a frivolous case, settled for "nuisance" minimal value with no admission of wrongdoing. I would think the plaintiff attorney probably lost money with all of the expert and depo fees they paid. The plaintiff got probably half of the very small settlement, but she would have been embarrassed badly in court and likely received nothing (her own family was not on speaking terms with her, boyfriend into drug use, she was on video walking in flip flops post-op when she was supposedly having chronic pain, etc). I am glad it didn't go to court, even though 99% we would've won easily... time waste and honestly would've been sad to see someone I tried to help made to look pathetic and fraudulent in a courtroom.

Fortunately, I had good coaching from my attorney, my boss at the time, and my residency teachers during the case. Still stressful.
Essentially, if you get sued, it'll work like this: lawsuit starts (legit or not), nothing happens fast. First, attorneys gather charts, both sides hire experts, both sides do depositions, both attorneys bill up many hours, plaintiff attorney aims to waste as much of DPM clinical time as they can. That goes on for many months or even years. Plaintiff attorney is often on % only, so they will try desperation stuff to coax a settlement if there is no real case. Defendant attorney is kinda indifferent as they get paid by malpractice company for whatever nonsense plaintiff attorney tries. Then, once both attorneys have billed up plenty of hours (or plaintiff attorney found a better case) and it's clear there is or is not a good case against the doc, settlement is reached.

If DPM wants to bring it to trial, they are told trial would cost much more than settlement if they didn't screw up (or told the trial judgment could be much more than settlement if settlement is sizable because they DID screw up). DPM is also told they would have to pay for trial and any judgment themselves if they wanted trial; malpractice company has recommended settlement and that's that. DPM gets to report such settlement for the rest of their career for hospitals, future insurance, etc. Fun times that nearly every surgical DPM/MD/DO has or will have.

...As mentioned, PICA is fine but way overpriced; they are owned by a much bigger company now (ProAssurance). My group right now uses it... they are pretty large, so who knows if they get discount for having many docs. It is a waste of many thousands per year if you're an entrepreneur or contractor or whatever... you're simply paying for their sponsoring conferences, extensive ads in podiatry journals etc, their corp partnerships, etc. It is not "podiatry focused" as it was 10+ years ago before the sellout. There are other options that will all get basically the same results (all simply hire a local malpractice attorney and local RRA cert DPM or other appropriate review expert if there is a claim). There are many adequate companies that will cost less than PICA (sometimes half in my exp), and if you are hospital/MSG employ, you probably don't have a choice of insurance company anyways.

Regardless of what company you pick, tips for lower chance of having malpractice problems:
-communicate well with your patients
-document reasonable, esp on surgical or potential surgical pts... "pt declines X," "pt offered Y." Consent and op report and pre-op visit will be key docs (so ABFAS isn't quite as crazy as we think when they dissect those for cert).
-pick surgical candidates well... avoid smokers, substance users, mood/psych med pts, obese/sick, etc
-realize there are some pts with unrealistic expectation, bad health, sketchy social situation, other problems... give them PT and orthotics until they go away... encourage them to go away if needed, discharge them if many red flags and documented non-compliance (esp non-compliance with diabetic DME or abx making ulcer/amp inevitable)
-build rapport with pts before doing surgery (this is why DM infect, trauma, and passed-on patients are much higher risk)
-test pt compliance with attending a few visits, using pads, filling Rx, using DME, going to PT, getting imaging, etc before scheduling surgery
-be empathetic if there is a complication and treat or punt it promptly
-do good work, both diagnostic and surgical (punt/consult fast and communicate well if you are in over your head)
-pass your surgical boards (ABFAS) if you want to do surgery... just makes things much easier in terms of privileging or explain your qual should you ever need to

In my case, we had RRA cert expert and me RRA qual at the time. We were able to largely disqualify the pathetic plaintiff "expert" since he was not even ABFAS, he was "retired" from toe surgery or whatever he once did, and the case was surgical in nature (basically invalidated his commentary on the surgery results, left with just his trite "orthotics would have cured the flat foot, pt did not need surgery" that he'd done in 30+ other cases - all plaintiff side - by stating "going to meetings" as his expertise on standards of care for surgery).

As to what I learned from it: don't try to be a hero. Good skill cannot make up for questionable pt selection. The pt had a history (many years prior) of drug use, and I should've just said no surgery. If I'd have done a few more visits, I might have pegged her as anxiety type. The owner had seen her and done insoles and pads with little help, she was turned over to me, and I figured severe HAV/planus shouldn't be punished just because she had partied many years prior... and I was probably wrong. She relapsed after the surgery healed and ended up kicked out of my former office as well as her PCP for drug seeking and probably mad at the world. Addicts are often great at lying and are happy to throw anyone under the bus to get their fix, money, etc. No good deed goes unpunished... tell the uber fatties, the substance users, the "CRPS-prone" anxiety types that they can find somewhere else to get their surgery done. Even if the trauma or deformity imaging screams "surgery," just put those types in a cast and tell them they can deal with the arthrosis or deformity later. Don't let the pt charm you into bending your common sense just for them.

Regardless, you can find many companies that'll settle the inevitable case here and there. They all settle after grinding down the settlement with evidence from charts and experts. Settlement's what is cheaper for them. The companies aren't dumb; they will all get you a competent med mal attorney and experts (or they'd risk HUGE settlements). How much you pay for that coverage is up to you - or your employer. You are basically paying many thousands per year for a service that just gives you a certificate to meet hospital/insurance reqs and hires attorney should you ever need one. Don't overthink it.
 
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And if you need more than 25k then you have bigger problems than your license being revoked...
I respectfully disagree, these are long processes, sometimes 2 years or more, legal fees add up quickly and the lawyer will need to hire an expert to defend the care provided by the licensee, that alone will be $10-15k. And what's worse, many states will recoup what it cost them to prosecute the case in the judgement against the licensee ... which you have no control over the state's costs but will have to pay it anyway.
 
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Anybody have bad experiences with PICA? I guess we all learn about them from conferences but if a case comes up are they responsive and do they back up their claims as being the best in our field?
 
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