Question on call coverage in a solo situation

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Timeoutofmind

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Quick question:

I am looking very seriously at a hospital employment position. There are some guys doing pain in the hospital system but no one who I would be working with directly or in my same clinic or that I would be sharing patients with.

When I addressed night/weekend/holiday pager coverage with the admins, they said the prior pain docs they have contracted out the work to were not available after hours, and they are fine if I do that too.

That seems to me poor patient care and not good liability wise for me. Idk though maybe this is ok?

What work around would you all suggest? How can I carry a pager 24/7...and what if I am on vaca? Seems unreasonable.
 
you will have to tell the patients to go to the ER for help if you are not available. this could make for some very unhappy ER docs. ditto for PCP's. i agree with your assessment.// poor patient care and not good liability wise//
 
You're a hospital employee. It's your employer's problem.
its up to the doctor to determine coverage and how to arrange. its not on the hospital, and it is not the employer's problem, because the hospital is not going to dictate your work policy.

unless you contact the other pain docs to arrange something, you will be on call for yourself 24/7. its not hard to do, except if you want to skip town...
 
its up to the doctor to determine coverage and how to arrange. its not on the hospital, and it is not the employer's problem, because the hospital is not going to dictate your work policy.

unless you contact the other pain docs to arrange something, you will be on call for yourself 24/7. its not hard to do, except if you want to skip town...
Nope. Hospital dictates most everything you do in an employed situation. Including your coverage, carriers, staffing, etc.
 
Quick question:

I am looking very seriously at a hospital employment position. There are some guys doing pain in the hospital system but no one who I would be working with directly or in my same clinic or that I would be sharing patients with.

When I addressed night/weekend/holiday pager coverage with the admins, they said the prior pain docs they have contracted out the work to were not available after hours, and they are fine if I do that too.

That seems to me poor patient care and not good liability wise for me. Idk though maybe this is ok?

What work around would you all suggest? How can I carry a pager 24/7...and what if I am on vaca? Seems unreasonable.

you WANT to wear a pager 24/7? o............k

no need, IMHO. after hours they can go to an ER. you dont need or want a call at 2 am because someone has back pain when you gave them an epidural 12 hours ago.
 
its up to the doctor to determine coverage and how to arrange. its not on the hospital, and it is not the employer's problem, because the hospital is not going to dictate your work policy.

unless you contact the other pain docs to arrange something, you will be on call for yourself 24/7. its not hard to do, except if you want to skip town...

Right....
 
Solo over a decade now. Phone forwarded to my cell after hours. No abuse of the privilege to speak after we close. People don't want to talk as much as you may think. They know they have to wait until morning if they have an issue.
 
Solo over a decade now. Phone forwarded to my cell after hours. No abuse of the privilege to speak after we close. People don't want to talk as much as you may think. They know they have to wait until morning if they have an issue.


how often do you get calls. did you even get one that needed your after-hours attention? ive been "off call" for a decade as well and havent once needed to be reached. i will admit that i have an ER that patients can easily get to.
 
Oh sometimes people call on a weekend and they are really hurting and I might go in and help them if I have nothing going on. No calls really about post-procedural pain at 2AM. Most people are apologetic if I answer the phone at 7p and they were just looking to leave a voicemail. It is in the initial paperwork that if they call me specifically to talk about opioids they are gone.
 
Fortunately it is so rare to get a call after hours. The only truly emergency call that I remember was a confused elderly patient of mine that called me around 7:00 a.m. on a weekend because her eye was getting red after having had her cataract out that week. After googling the surgeon's number I gave it to her and told her to call him.
 
Nope. Hospital dictates most everything you do in an employed situation. Including your coverage, carriers, staffing, etc.
interestingly, when i signed my contract, i made stipulations about call.

i agreed to take call for myself, on the stipulation that, as the only physician, i could determine and arrange inpatient consults on my own terms, and that i would not come in on Saturday or Sunday to see consults. i agreed that i would be willing to reconsider seeing consults after hours or weekends IF a second physician was hired full time....


its in the contract...
 
interestingly, when i signed my contract, i made stipulations about call.

i agreed to take call for myself, on the stipulation that, as the only physician, i could determine and arrange inpatient consults on my own terms, and that i would not come in on Saturday or Sunday to see consults. i agreed that i would be willing to reconsider seeing consults after hours or weekends IF a second physician was hired full time....


its in the contract...

Sorry to hear that.
 
Fortunately it is so rare to get a call after hours. The only truly emergency call that I remember was a confused elderly patient of mine that called me around 7:00 a.m. on a weekend because her eye was getting red after having had her cataract out that week. After googling the surgeon's number I gave it to her and told her to call him.

So what are you guys who are solo and 24/7 call doing when you go on vaca? Does anyone cover the pager for you?
 
So what are you guys who are solo and 24/7 call doing when you go on vaca? Does anyone cover the pager for you?

My partner and I split call, but the service often screws up and doesn't get the updated call schedule. You just answer the phone and deal with the decision...even on vacation.
 
when i was completely solo without a midlevel, i took phone with me, and would contact service to hold calls for kind of important things like anesthesiology oral boards or the pain boards.

i dont get a lot of calls. esp since i dont give a lot of opioids 😉
 
the hospital operator deflects the vast majority of the calls. She tells them that I can not give any narcotics over the phone and if They feel that they need to they can go to the ER. The er has called me only once so far. Knock on wood. I have talked to a few patients with post procedure issues. No big deal.
 
I have a voicemail that says go to the ER for emergencies, otherwise we'll call you back. Wherever I am in the world, I have no problem calling pts back. All non narcs.
 
I
Quick question:

I am looking very seriously at a hospital employment position. There are some guys doing pain in the hospital system but no one who I would be working with directly or in my same clinic or that I would be sharing patients with.

When I addressed night/weekend/holiday pager coverage with the admins, they said the prior pain docs they have contracted out the work to were not available after hours, and they are fine if I do that too.

That seems to me poor patient care and not good liability wise for me. Idk though maybe this is ok?

What work around would you all suggest? How can I carry a pager 24/7...and what if I am on vaca? Seems unreasonable.
I'm the only pain guy in a multi-specialty group (primary care mostly). I'm on call 24/7 but I only get about 1 call every month or two. I've never gotten a call past 8 or 9 at night. I havent been in a hospital in 4 yrs.

When I do get called its generally very quick and comes down to either 1-Call back first thing next business day and we'll work you in, or 2-If it can't wait, go to the ER.

I don't to stim implants or pumps. I don't do any hospital based acute pain, PCAs or anything like that. No opiates can be called in anymore either, so that doesn't generate phone calls. I do want to be on call for the rare procedural complication (epidural hematoma, abscess, etc; haven't had any yet, knock on wood).

Bottom line: I set up my practice to be 100% outpatient so I practically never get called. And if I do it's either not an emergency or if it is, it's "Go to the ER." If it's anything Pain related I'll call ahead and after to discuss with the ER doc, but that's rare, rare, rare. For all practical purposes, even though I'm always on call, I'm essentially, never really "on call."

Pain emergencies are (should be) rare.
 
I
I'm the only pain guy in a multi-specialty group (primary care mostly). I'm on call 24/7 but I only get about 1 call every month or two. I've never gotten a call past 8 or 9 at night. I havent been in a hospital in 4 yrs.

When I do get called its generally very quick and comes down to either 1-Call back first thing next business day and we'll work you in, or 2-If it can't wait, go to the ER.

I don't to stim implants or pumps. I don't do any hospital based acute pain, PCAs or anything like that. No opiates can be called in anymore either, so that doesn't generate phone calls. I do want to be on call for the rare procedural complication (epidural hematoma, abscess, etc; haven't had any yet, knock on wood).

Bottom line: I set up my practice to be 100% outpatient so I practically never get called. And if I do it's either not an emergency or if it is, it's "Go to the ER." If it's anything Pain related I'll call ahead and after to discuss with the ER doc, but that's rare, rare, rare. For all practical purposes, even though I'm always on call, I'm essentially, never really "on call."

Pain emergencies are (should be) rare.

Makes sense. Don't mean to beat a dead horse but what do you do with this setup when you are on vaca? Say there is an epidural hematoma....even if they can get a hold of you by phone, you are not going to be able to go in and see the patient right?
 
Makes sense. Don't mean to beat a dead horse but what do you do with this setup when you are on vaca? Say there is an epidural hematoma....even if they can get a hold of you by phone, you are not going to be able to go in and see the patient right?

Doesn't matter. ER and order MRI, ESR, CRP, CBC. Neurosurg on call if anything positive or if ER finds focal deficits.
 
Doesn't matter. ER and order MRI, ESR, CRP, CBC. Neurosurg on call if anything positive or if ER finds focal deficits.

Yeah, makes sense, but still kinda seems suboptimal...like what if it is a problem with a stim for instance? Are you ok with the neurosurgeon managing it, even say removing the system if need be, in your absence?
 
Yeah, makes sense, but still kinda seems suboptimal...like what if it is a problem with a stim for instance? Are you ok with the neurosurgeon managing it, even say removing the system if need be, in your absence?

What goes wrong with stim overnight? If tbey get abscess someone is taking it out ASAP.
 
Makes sense. Don't mean to beat a dead horse but what do you do with this setup when you are on vaca? Say there is an epidural hematoma....even if they can get a hold of you by phone, you are not going to be able to go in and see the patient right?
Exactly. If I get that call at two am, whether I'm in town or not, I,

1-Advise the patient they have signs of an epidural hematoma,
2-Tell them to go to the ER immediately, if they don't have a way to do so, advise them to call 911,
3-Call ahead to the ER, speak to ER physician and tell him patient's name, I suspect a hematoma and that they'll need a stat MRI
4-Write down ER doctors name in EMR immediately from home, write note documenting time and that the ER doctor accepted the patient (which by law he has to anyways, but its still good to document the discussion, name and that you explicitly told him what study is needed in case some other doc gets the patient)
5-Tell them that the patient will need an emergency neurosurgery consult (they know this anyways, but again, document you conveyed this over the phone)
6-Hope the MRI shows nothing
7-Give them my cell phone for any further questions
8-Advise them the patient if admitted would likely need to go to either neurosurgery if MRI is positive, or medicine if its negative and they can't ambulate, or need some other workup or have some other reason for admission.

At this point there's absolutely zero reason for me to go to the hospital. They've go an accepting doctor. The facility has all necessary specialties (neurosurg if surgical, Medicine if some non-surgical nonsense, if all is negative normal and patient's ambulating, they can go home.)

I do chronic pain. If all they have after a negative work up is "chronic" pain, they don't need me seeing them daily in the hospital for something chronic. They can be "chronic" at home. If its anything "acute" or emergent, that's what inpatient hospitalists are for, or those doctors who're on the ER call schedule, of which I'm not.

I spent 10 yrs as an ER physician. I know how the system works. The inpatient physicians have zero use for me as long as I'm available and helpful over the phone. Also, they're required by the law, as ER physicians and physician specialists on the ER call schedule, to treat and stabilize the patient. They cannot demand anyone else come in on an emergent basis that's not on the ER call schedule.

Of course if you want to go in and see your patient, and you have privileges, or you want to see them as a courtesy consult as a positive patient related thing, or you do a lot of inpatient work or are required to, than that's different. But if you set up your practice as outpatient only, then you're outpatient only.

An analogy would be to that of internists, some of whom do outpatient only and whose admitted patients are taken care of by hospitalists when admitted, versus the old school internists who do both, because they choose to do both. Doing both is a much harder life and career. Do it if you want, but if you don't want to, it's all in how you set it up.

I've done enough acute, high intensity, emergent inpatient medicine that I've had my fill and have no desire for the long sleepless nights, blown circadian rhythms leading to chronic sleep deprivation and chronic jet-lagged feeling and basic unnecessary misery. I'm very happy with my boring, yet very stable and predictable outpatient life, especially since I've had my fill of the crazy, the chaos and the acute.

In summary, it doesn't matter if I'm 2 miles from the hospital or in Jamaica on vacation, because I'm not going into the hospital either way. Cell phone's are a beautiful thing. In fact, I was just in Jamaica on vacation this week for 6 days, and I'm on day 8 of vacation. I've gotten zero phone calls and only 1 work email that required me doing anything. One final thing: As a back up, there are 3 family medicine docs and 2 fam med PAs in my office, that if push came to shove and I needed them to see a patient for a quick script or something, I could call them and have them work a patient in. But in 3.5 yrs I haven't had to do that. Anyone that needs an Rx is brought in early, pre-my vacations and I don't do any big procedures like stim trials or kypho's right before I leave, to avoid issues like lead remove, or complication's from more significant procedures.

It just works. And it's great. I have Derm hours.
 
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Yeah, makes sense, but still kinda seems suboptimal...like what if it is a problem with a stim for instance? Are you ok with the neurosurgeon managing it, even say removing the system if need be, in your absence?
What's "suboptimal" is doing implants.

Don't do implants. If you want to be a surgeon and you want to be explanting pussed out stims and dealing with pump malfunctions at 3 am, then do implants and be "optimal." If you want a sweet life with restful nights and leisurely weekends and holidays, do stim trials only (no implants, and no pumps at all) and just do bread and butter outpatient stuff.

That being said, if you are doing implants, it doesn't come down to being "ok with a neurosurgeon managing it," they're going to want you to manage it, and you won't likely have a choice unless you have a really good working relationship with one or more surgeons that's cover your but in a pinch.

Issues with trial leads are pretty uncommon. I haven't had an emergency issue with one yet, but if I did I'd still try to manage it over the phone at home with the inpatient guys doing the acute stuff. If the lead needed to be pulled, I'd try to walk the ER doctor through it (they may or may not do it) or see if I could get anesthesia to do it, but more likely if there was a neurosurgical issue (hematoma, abscess) that's something neurosurg would have to deal with anyway. I'm not able to do an abscess or hematoma evacuation, so I'm worthless to them.

It's all about implants or no implants. Do implants and accept the headaches, or don't do them and have many less headaches. Do what works for you, your patients and your family life.
 
while i agree with you in theory...

patients are very cognizant of the doctor-patient relationship. they have invested in this relationship.

you are not required to see your patient who is in the hospital, but maintaining such a relationship is very important - and may play a significant component of avoiding a lawsuit. i encourage any physician who has a patient that is being treated as an inpatient to visit their patient. no billing required. see them, say hi, hope you are doing okay, anything you want me to mention to your hospitalist?
 
while i agree with you in theory...

patients are very cognizant of the doctor-patient relationship. they have invested in this relationship.

you are not required to see your patient who is in the hospital, but maintaining such a relationship is very important - and may play a significant component of avoiding a lawsuit. i encourage any physician who has a patient that is being treated as an inpatient to visit their patient. no billing required. see them, say hi, hope you are doing okay, anything you want me to mention to your hospitalist?

Phone call works as well. As does calling the hospitalist and relaying the info.
 
Phone call works as well. As does calling the hospitalist and relaying the info.
imo, not as good. im not talking about the medical aspects. patients remember when you take the time to come in and see them. the patients in hospital (for other reasons) all appreciate when i drop by.

of course, i had a couple others ask why i didnt come in to see them. yes, one patient didnt accept the excuse i was actually in Florida, but cie la vie.
 
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