Question Regarding SUNY Downstate DPT Student Outcomes

[brooklynyc]

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I was recently surprised by the last minute interview invite to SUNY Downstate, which I always had in mind as a great school. I am currently prepared mentally to go to NYU but could not pass up the opportunity to interview at SUNY Downstate.

After the interview, I looked on their website and they student outcomes look abysmal.

Student Outcomes
Graduation rate: 83.5% (Classes of 2010-2012)
Licensure examination pass rate: 85.43% (Classes of 2012-2014)
Employment rate: 93% (Classes of 2011-2013)

I don't want to judge a school on this along but to me, this is very alarming. NYU blows them away in every category and so do many other schools from what I've seen.

I was wondering if there are any current students here or graduates that can bring some light on the Downstate program. I know their first year students also take undergraduate courses, comingled with other health grads, and was told this is a cost saving measure. That means many courses are not taught with just PT in mind. I don't know if this is something that matters or not, but it was a variable I noticed.

I thought I did okay on my interview which is why I want to be prepared to make an informed decision. The cost differentials and student outcomes differentials are making this a very interesting dilemma.

 

[SwampPT]

I was recently surprised by the last minute interview invite to SUNY Downstate, which I always had in mind as a great school. I am currently prepared mentally to go to NYU but could not pass up the opportunity to interview at SUNY Downstate.

After the interview, I looked on their website and they student outcomes look abysmal.

Student Outcomes
Graduation rate: 83.5% (Classes of 2010-2012)
Licensure examination pass rate: 85.43% (Classes of 2012-2014)
Employment rate: 93% (Classes of 2011-2013)

I don't want to judge a school on this along but to me, this is very alarming. NYU blows them away in every category and so do many other schools from what I've seen.

I was wondering if there are any current students here or graduates that can bring some light on the Downstate program. I know their first year students also take undergraduate courses, comingled with other health grads, and was told this is a cost saving measure. That means many courses are not taught with just PT in mind. I don't know if this is something that matters or not, but it was a variable I noticed.

I thought I did okay on my interview which is why I want to be prepared to make an informed decision. The cost differentials and student outcomes differentials are making this a very interesting dilemma.

The graduation rate and pass rate would sure scare me away. If I had a better option, which you do, I would go with it and not look back. The whole objective is to graduate and pass the NPTE.

 

[DesertPT]

If that 85% is first time pass rate it is not that abominable...the national average first time pass rate is consistently ~89%. If that is three-year ultimate pass rate then of course you would run far and fast. Although according to the FSBPT stats for New York (which you can find here: https://www.fsbpt.org/FreeResources/NPTEPassRateReports/NPTEPassRatesByState.aspx?exam=PT&state=681) their ultimate pass rate for 2010, 2011 & 2012 was 96.5%. That's not superb, but it's tolerable (especially considering there were only 57 students going into that average). Keep in mind that the NPTE passing standard is that you know enough to have the bare minimum needed to practice safely. Not a very high standard, so two schools with the same pass rate could vary quite a bit in quality of education.

The employment rate being 93% I'm not sure what to say about. Every single PT school website I've ever looked at has listed employment within 6 months as 100%. Admittedly thought I've never really looked at any schools in New England closely. Perhaps the job market is New York is just such that there are a few grads who can't find work.

The more alarming stat is their graduation rate sitting at 83%. From their website it appears that their class size is only in the low 20's, so they are loosing 3-4 students per year. Indeed, 57 have taken the NPTE over the course of 3 years, whereas we would expect ~66 to have matriculated. Sometimes these graduation rates are just due to random chance - perhaps their was one class that just freakishly lost a ton of students for random reasons. It's hard to say. I would contact the school to find out if they are loosing 20% of the class consistently each year, or if they had one oddball year where a tone of people left.

To some extent these numbers make it seem like there may be an above average prevalence of international students in this program. I could be completely wrong, but that's one hypothesis.

A key factor here is the cost difference. Exactly how much cheaper do you expect SUNY to be grand total? Also, what do you mean that PT students take undergrad classes? That doesn't even make any sense. I see that it's a combined BS/DPT program, but how is it possible that a third of the PT school curriculum can be taught in classes that have undergrads in them?

 

[ktachiba]

Anything below a 90% for graduation rate looks really bad. It comes off that the program doesn't care about dropping students who are struggling. I would try and get into programs with at least >90% for both graduation rate and first time NPTE pass rate. I personally wanted 95% for both.

I would suggest making a list of criteria for ranking schools, and then decide the order of importance for each criteria. If cost is your most important factor, then maybe this program would be ideal for you. If not, I would suggest looking into NYU as they have great passing rates.

Also, the low employment rate usually means that the student is waiting for a particular job to open up, not because they cannot find a job. There are WAY too many openings for PT to be jobless after passing the NPTE.

 

[ktachiba]

However, I must add...if you are really confident in your abilities to pass PT school no matter what, then the graduation rate shouldn't scare you too much😉...4/5th of the class still graduated and more than that passed the boards...but the environment of that program is probly cut-throat, so u should ask yourself if you wanna be in that type of setting as well..but I guess you will get a sense of the environment there during the interview

 

[brooklynyc]

Thank you all for the input!

 

[The_Trainer]

Hey Brookyln-
Those are concerning numbers, however, difference in tuition is ridiculous.
I did a rough calculation of purely tuition costs without fees, Downstate doesn't easily post summer classes, which they charge by credit, so I estimated you'd be in ~20 summer credits for the program total (correct me if i'm wrong).. and judging by your name you'd be living at home?

Total Tuition:
NYU - ~$134,000
Downstate- ~$80,000

Not sure what your financial situation is, but +50k difference is way to much for me to pick NYU, if I got into both. Especially when you look at clinical internships: Both are in the same NY metropolitan area, which is world renown for some of the best hospitals (HSS, Sloan Kettering, etc). At Downstate your in 40 weeks of clinical internships, whereas NYU is 30 weeks of clinical. So your spending significantly more money to have less clinical weeks at essentially the same sites.

I look at the graduation rate like this - 22 per class means that each class member makes up roughly 4.5% of the total class size, so 3-4 are not graduating a year. At NYU although still small class, 40 students with their graduation rate of 94% means they are losing 2-3 students per year. So in reality they are losing the same amount per year. Just don't be the student who thinks going out into manhattan every weekend during school is a good idea.

PT school will difficult regardless, so I'd say study hard and go cheap.

 

[brooklynyc]

Hey Brookyln-
Those are concerning numbers, however, difference in tuition is ridiculous.
I did a rough calculation of purely tuition costs without fees, Downstate doesn't easily post summer classes, which they charge by credit, so I estimated you'd be in ~20 summer credits for the program total (correct me if i'm wrong).. and judging by your name you'd be living at home?

Total Tuition:
NYU - ~$134,000
Downstate- ~$80,000

Not sure what your financial situation is, but +50k difference is way to much for me to pick NYU, if I got into both. Especially when you look at clinical internships: Both are in the same NY metropolitan area, which is world renown for some of the best hospitals (HSS, Sloan Kettering, etc). At Downstate your in 40 weeks of clinical internships, whereas NYU is 30 weeks of clinical. So your spending significantly more money to have less clinical weeks at essentially the same sites.

I look at the graduation rate like this - 22 per class means that each class member makes up roughly 4.5% of the total class size, so 3-4 are not graduating a year. At NYU although still small class, 40 students with their graduation rate of 94% means they are losing 2-3 students per year. So in reality they are losing the same amount per year. Just don't be the student who thinks going out into manhattan every weekend during school is a good idea.

PT school will difficult regardless, so I'd say study hard and go cheap.

Thank you for advice and analysis. I really appreciate it.

Yes, money is a huge concern for me right now as my family isn't quite in a position to fully support me and I did not save enough money in my current career.

Thanks for taking the time to help!

 

[DesertPT]

Also, what do you mean that PT students take undergrad classes? That doesn't even make any sense. I see that it's a combined BS/DPT program, but how is it possible that a third of the PT school curriculum can be taught in classes that have undergrads in them?

Thank you all for the input!

Reply to my questions! K thanks 😀

 

[brooklynyc]

Desert, Sorry!

So my understanding is that there are courses during the first year that are at the undergraduate level, but they are the same courses taught in other programs. So I might be taking a class with other pre-health majors. I'm actually not ENTIRELY sure.

The BS/DPT curriculum in the physical therapy program at SUNY Downstate consists of 135.5 credits of physical therapy professional courses. This includes 43 credits at the undergraduate level, and 92.5 credits at the graduate level.

Here is the BS portion. Classes are included in the link:

http://www.downstate.edu/CHRP/pt/courses_bs.html

The College of Health Related Professions is dedicated to education of allied health professional students in an interdisciplinary environment, to better prepare them for working with an interdisciplinary team upon graduation. The physical therapist student is required to take a number of interdisciplinary courses, as noted below.

Here is the Interdisciplinary portion, comingled with other undergraduates or health graduates I am assuming?

http://www.downstate.edu/CHRP/pt/courses_interdisciplinary.html

As they are an accredited institution, I am sure they teach all the necessary things. I DO plan to talk to a PT at a hospital I shadowed at who went to this program. I am just looking for more feedback from other people as well at this time.

It's only conjecture as to whether their program structure is the reason for the low stats or if it's something else, so I can't really say. I plan to contact the PT this weekend for more clarity.

 

[DesertPT]

Desert, Sorry!

So my understanding is that there are courses during the first year that are at the undergraduate level, but they are the same courses taught in other programs. So I might be taking a class with other pre-health majors. I'm actually not ENTIRELY sure.



Here is the BS portion. Classes are included in the link:

http://www.downstate.edu/CHRP/pt/courses_bs.html



Here is the Interdisciplinary portion, comingled with other undergraduates or health graduates I am assuming?

http://www.downstate.edu/CHRP/pt/courses_interdisciplinary.html

As they are an accredited institution, I am sure they teach all the necessary things. I DO plan to talk to a PT at a hospital I shadowed at who went to this program. I am just looking for more feedback from other people as well at this time.

It's only conjecture as to whether their program structure is the reason for the low stats or if it's something else, so I can't really say. I plan to contact the PT this weekend for more clarity.

Well that sounds like it might be part of the reason for their somewhat subpar graduation and pass rates. Taking PT school classes in conjunction with undergrad kinesiology majors? Really? I would seriously question this. That would either be the hardest undergrad kinesiology class ever, or it would be throttled way down so that the undergrads could keep up. Why would undergrads even be taking these classes?

Or is it just people in the BS/PT program that take these classes? I guess that would make more sense, but I still don't get why they don't consider all the PT classes as part of the professional curriculum.

Although if the cost difference really is so huge you may not really have a choice.

 

[DesertPT]

I guess I don't totally get how this program works, so maybe it's fine. But I still think it sounds pretty dang weird.

The fact that you've been to an interview and been accepted their and you still aren't sure isn't too good of a sign... :/

 

[Aboss1337]

I actually interviewed with downstate a little over a month ago and accepted a seat ~2 weeks ago.

I had many of the same concerns you had when choosing a school but ultimately signed the next 3 years of my life to Downstate. There were a few other reasons why I choose downstate compared to other schools which may help you decide.

1) Cost was lower compared to the other schools I got into. I will be paying for college i gotta keep costs down
- Because technically its considered undergrad for 1st year i was able to apply to scholarships that were available to only undergrads not graduate students. I should be getting a few. Which, like i said can cut down on costs.
2) I can commute and save more money
3) My commute can be by the train so I wont be stuck driving in traffic
4) Presented excellent opportunities to conduct research. I talked to Dr. Katz alot about reseach i am currently involved in.
5) The staff that I met seemed very nice and helpful
6) It is a medical university rather than just a program at a college.
7) More clinical rotations and they are spread out rather then at end of schooling


My thinking behind lower drop out was that it located in a bad area of Brooklyn kind of, not really, a little but, that doesn’t really bother me. Another thing that may affect the drop out rate it is, from my understanding 1) if you fail summer gross anatomy you get kicked out and 2) I think you have to maintain a 3.0 or you get kicked out. (Dont quote me on these) I dont see grades or bad neighborhood e being a problem for me so I over looked them. I also figured all programs are accredited so they cant be that bad.


However, I am still unsure if you take the first year "undergraduate classed" with only BS/DPT students or with general student body. If you find out the answer shoot me a message.

Long story short, if you go to downstate atleast ill know one of my classmates. Ive havent met anyone yet

 

[DesertPT]

1) if you fail summer gross anatomy you get kicked out and 2) I think you have to maintain a 3.0 or you get kicked out.

Failing a class or not maintaining a 3.0 is grounds for dismissal at almost all PT programs.

 

[DesertPT]

However, I am still unsure if you take the first year "undergraduate classed" with only BS/DPT students or with general student body. If you find out the answer shoot me a message.

I find the fact that the school is not clearly describing this to you in the interview/application process to be a little bit bogus.

 

[brooklynyc]

Here is the curriculum. This does l

I actually interviewed with downstate a little over a month ago and accepted a seat ~2 weeks ago.

I had many of the same concerns you had when choosing a school but ultimately signed the next 3 years of my life to Downstate. There were a few other reasons why I choose downstate compared to other schools which may help you decide.

1) Cost was lower compared to the other schools I got into. I will be paying for college i gotta keep costs down
- Because technically its considered undergrad for 1st year i was able to apply to scholarships that were available to only undergrads not graduate students. I should be getting a few. Which, like i said can cut down on costs.
2) I can commute and save more money
3) My commute can be by the train so I wont be stuck driving in traffic
4) Presented excellent opportunities to conduct research. I talked to Dr. Katz alot about reseach i am currently involved in.
5) The staff that I met seemed very nice and helpful
6) It is a medical university rather than just a program at a college.
7) More clinical rotations and they are spread out rather then at end of schooling


My thinking behind lower drop out was that it located in a bad area of Brooklyn kind of, not really, a little but, that doesn’t really bother me. Another thing that may affect the drop out rate it is, from my understanding 1) if you fail summer gross anatomy you get kicked out and 2) I think you have to maintain a 3.0 or you get kicked out. (Dont quote me on these) I dont see grades or bad neighborhood e being a problem for me so I over looked them. I also figured all programs are accredited so they cant be that bad.


However, I am still unsure if you take the first year "undergraduate classed" with only BS/DPT students or with general student body. If you find out the answer shoot me a message.

Long story short, if you go to downstate atleast ill know one of my classmates. Ive havent met anyone yet

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

What other schools were you accepted into, if you don't mind sharing?

I might PM you soon! I'm trying to formulate all the questions I would like to ask . . .

 

[Aboss1337]

I find the fact that the school is not clearly describing this to you in the interview/application process to be a little bit bogus.

I remember talking about this, but I didnt ask if they were only taught with other BS/DPT students. I asked, how are the classes regarding their ability to perpare us to be a Doctor in physical therapy when they are listed as undergraduate classes. I dont quite remember her exact answer but it went something like this "Nothing about the undergraduate classes are 'undergraduate' it is difficulty and nature, they are mostly set up in this fashion to save on tution costs."

The first 3 semesters are billed as undergrad (~4000$ per semester with fees). The Doctorate classes are around 11,000$ with fees per semester. Total cost of attendance is 73,753.91 $ with fees.

 

[The_Trainer]

The first 3 semesters are billed as undergrad (~4000$ per semester with fees). The Doctorate classes are around 11,000$ with fees per semester. Total coast of attendance is 73,753.91 $ wih fees.

Not bad for a graduate school in NYC. Since the first three semesters are "undergrad", you might be eligible to lower interest rates / subsidized loans and I'd also explore the option to receive scholarships through NYS TAP program or a federal pell grant.

 

[DesertPT]

What would motivate a PT school to set it up this way? Don't they want all the extra money that comes with billing professional tuition?

 

[SwampPT]

What would motivate a PT school to set it up this way? Don't they want all the extra money that comes with billing professional tuition?

Also wouldn't this actually hurt a large number of students? By this I mean that you can only borrow so much through FAFSA for your undergraduate degree. I know I would not be eligible to borrow any more for undergraduate programs, but I can for graduate programs. I would think that most college students paying for college through FAFSA would run into this problem.

 

[brooklynyc]

Ugh . . . soooo . . . I got accepted into SUNY Downstate.

Now this dilemma is fully actualized. It's a 60k difference . . . one of the biggest decisions of my life. I'm probably going to talk to graduates from both and try to paint myself a better picture.

 

[DesertPT]

If it really is that much of a price difference, and those are the only two schools you've been accepted to, then I don't think you really have a choice. $60,000 borrowed at an 8% interest rate is an incredible amount of money in light of the fact that licensed PTs from both schools undoubtedly have the same earning potential. Borrowing that much more will increase the amount of time you spend paying back loans by longer than the time you are in PT school. Just something to think about.

 

[The_Trainer]

First off - Congrats! No longer do you have to fight for PT schools to take you, now they are fighting for you.

Good idea to do research, but I think this will be the picture you end up painting: https://happylists.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/students-loans2.jpg

I put a 60k difference in the category "As long as the program is accredited" and would go with the cheaper school. I personally just turned down two "Prestigious" schools that were both "ranked" in the top 10 for a smaller school that had everything I needed priced at 40k less.

Good luck!

 

[DesertPT]

I put a 60k difference in the category "As long as the program is accredited" and would go with the cheaper school.

Agreed. The OPs career goal is to be a PT, not a PT student. If the seemingly "better" program was 8 or 10k more, I'd say go with it. But $60k? That's how much an entire PT degree should cost period, not just a cost differential.

 

[brooklynyc]

Thank you all for being so supportive and taking the time to answer my questions and giving me input!

I truly appreciate it and am already working to pay it forward by helping out friends who are applying this cycle.

I love this forum!

 

[terptherapy]

Totally off topic but does anyone who has accepted for DPT 2018 know if there is a facebook group or a place to get in contact with other accepted students? I am looking for people to live with.