questionable unequal treatment

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limooo

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Hi Everyone,


I have a quick question about a questionable scheduling issue inequality between residents and I was hoping I could get some feedback/reference to this being discussed earlier, and then how to possibly address this.


Essentially, a program has 4 weeks vacation scheduled for prelims and categorical, both of whom receive the same stipend/compensation. A few months ago, it was brought to our attention that one group would be receiving an extra week of vacation for a total of 5 throughout the work year, but the other group remains at 4 weeks vacation without any extra compensation or adjustment to schedule. It just seems with similar income this change is unfair to an entire group. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to address this? Any rules that I am unaware of?


Thanks in advance for your input and help!
 
limooo said:
Hi Everyone,


I have a quick question about a questionable scheduling issue inequality between residents and I was hoping I could get some feedback/reference to this being discussed earlier, and then how to possibly address this.


Essentially, a program has 4 weeks vacation scheduled for prelims and categorical, both of whom receive the same stipend/compensation. A few months ago, it was brought to our attention that one group would be receiving an extra week of vacation for a total of 5 throughout the work year, but the other group remains at 4 weeks vacation without any extra compensation or adjustment to schedule. It just seems with similar income this change is unfair to an entire group. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to address this? Any rules that I am unaware of?


Thanks in advance for your input and help!
Click to expand...

Grossly inappropriate. Why would that be? and 5 weeks of vacation?! Wow! what kind of program has 5 weeks of vacation?
 
limooo said:
Hi Everyone,


I have a quick question about a questionable scheduling issue inequality between residents and I was hoping I could get some feedback/reference to this being discussed earlier, and then how to possibly address this.


Essentially, a program has 4 weeks vacation scheduled for prelims and categorical, both of whom receive the same stipend/compensation. A few months ago, it was brought to our attention that one group would be receiving an extra week of vacation for a total of 5 throughout the work year, but the other group remains at 4 weeks vacation without any extra compensation or adjustment to schedule. It just seems with similar income this change is unfair to an entire group. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to address this? Any rules that I am unaware of?


Thanks in advance for your input and help!
Click to expand...
Some rule may exist somewhere but from a moral standpoint if you are still getting what was advertised to you during interviews you aren't getting wronged
 
Thanks for the quick feedback.

Re: Lost in space. Extra week is because the new intern class will be starting 1 week earlier.

Re: Southern Surgeon. The categorical interns are receiving the extra week.

Re: sb247. True.
 
If you're the prelim, I wouldn't whine about categoricals getting favorable treatment. You're a prelim they don't really care about you.

If you're the categorical, you should feel enough pity for the prelims that you don't begrudge them the extra week.
 
Lostin_space said:
Grossly inappropriate. Why would that be? and 5 weeks of vacation?! Wow! what kind of program has 5 weeks of vacation?
Click to expand...
My program had 5 weeks our intern year, sort of. We started intern year June 23, and it finished June 23. During the course of those 52 weeks, we had our programs customary 4 weeks of vacation. Then the program didn't have us start PGY2 year until July 1, giving us all an "extra week" of vacation between contracts. Reason for that was that they wanted the new interns to have a week to acclimate under the old 2s and 3s. Of course, that week between contracts was unpaid. But we all loved it anyway.

I'm not sure if OP's situation is analogous. My program, *all* the interns, prelim and categorical had the offset schedule. In addition, we stuck all the prelims on electives in June so they could take some of their 4 weeks of vacation there as well, to allow for moving. For the OP, it sounds like everyone started together, but the prelims are working a week longer than the categoricals. Sounds pretty strange to me.
 
All interns are not created equal, prelim and categorical are different programs with disparate educational objectives.
 
The prelims were given 3 weeks off during the year and saving one week at the end but the categoricals were given 4 weeks off during the year, then decided to give the categoricals the last week off as well being their 5th week of vacation.
 
limooo said:
The prelims were given 3 weeks off during the year and saving one week at the end but the categoricals were given 4 weeks off during the year, then decided to give the categoricals the last week off as well being their 5th week of vacation.
Click to expand...
sounds like the program Raryn had...you sure the cat interns are being paid for that 5th week?
 
Raryn said:
My program had 5 weeks our intern year, sort of. We started intern year June 23, and it finished June 23. During the course of those 52 weeks, we had our programs customary 4 weeks of vacation. Then the program didn't have us start PGY2 year until July 1, giving us all an "extra week" of vacation between contracts. Reason for that was that they wanted the new interns to have a week to acclimate under the old 2s and 3s. Of course, that week between contracts was unpaid. But we all loved it anyway.

I'm not sure if OP's situation is analogous. My program, *all* the interns, prelim and categorical had the offset schedule. In addition, we stuck all the prelims on electives in June so they could take some of their 4 weeks of vacation there as well, to allow for moving. For the OP, it sounds like everyone started together, but the prelims are working a week longer than the categoricals. Sounds pretty strange to me.
Click to expand...

That's not the same. First of all, you started earlier than July 1, so that does not really count. My program gives us 3 weeks, and I got less than 3 weeks because I am having to do some academic things as part of my vacation and they won't give me the time off. Very unfair. It's also unfair what's happening to the OP.
 
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It's unfair, but the same response really applies to most questions about intern year -- keep your head down and just suffer through it. The goal is to get out unscathed, not pull a Norma Rae and do battle with your employer over injustices regardless of the consequences.
 
at least in my program the prelims had NO continuity clinic and the cats did..... suck
there were other ways that intern year was more suck for the categoricals than the prelims
you work elbow to elbow but you're not in the same program... period

I wouldn't begrudge the categoricals the extra week off
 
rokshana said:
sounds like the program Raryn had...you sure the cat interns are being paid for that 5th week?
Click to expand...
My program gives everyone, prelim and categorical that 5th week. Not exactly like the OP, where it sounds like the prelims had one less week during the year. But our program does strive to treat the prelims the same as the categoricals. They even have the same continuity clinic.
 
Crayola227 said:
at least in my program the prelims had NO continuity clinic and the cats did..... suck
there were other ways that intern year was more suck for the categoricals than the prelims
you work elbow to elbow but you're not in the same program... period

I wouldn't begrudge the categoricals the extra week off
Click to expand...

This is the answer. As I go off to clinic the prelims go back to bed.
 
Crayola227 said:
at least in my program the prelims had NO continuity clinic and the cats did..... suck
there were other ways that intern year was more suck for the categoricals than the prelims
you work elbow to elbow but you're not in the same program... period

I wouldn't begrudge the categoricals the extra week off
Click to expand...
prelims in my program did acute/urgent clinic instead of continuity clinic (doesn't really make sense for a prelim to have a continuity clinic if the leave after a year).
amount of vacation time was mandated by GME...every one got the same number of weeks...generally the prelims were on electives the month of june so they could get ready to move, but otherwise everything else was the same.
 
As a prelim I kinda got shafted by my program towards the end but at that time I was too happy to be leaving to my specialty choice and moving to care. This was at a program that made me do extra call and had me come in while I was sick "to get checked out."

To the OP, life's not always fair, I understand but try not to burn any bridges and just picture the day you're finally done with that place.
 
DrBowtie said:
Or where I did my prelim year, I cross covered your patients and took all the admissions while you were gone.
Click to expand...

If you cross covered then you would be on a different team with your own resident. Everyone cross covers. Either way I'm sure you're a stronger person for doing those few months.
 
Crayola227 said:
at least in my program the prelims had NO continuity clinic and the cats did..... suck
there were other ways that intern year was more suck for the categoricals than the prelims
you work elbow to elbow but you're not in the same program... period

I wouldn't begrudge the categoricals the extra week off
Click to expand...

Agreed - our schedules were way different:

- Prelims did no clinic whatsoever
- Categoricals did way more ICU and wards months (as a categorical, I did 9 months wards + 1 month ICU; some categoricals did 10 wards months + 1 ICU; prelims did like 5 wards months and didn't do any ICU unless they were anesthesia)

Total number of vacation weeks was equal, but the intensity of the two programs was not even close.
 
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dozitgetchahi said:
Agreed - our schedules were way different:

- Prelims did no clinic whatsoever
- Categoricals did way more ICU and wards months (as a categorical, I did 9 months wards + 1 month ICU; some categoricals did 10 wards months + 1 ICU; prelims did like 5 wards months and didn't do any ICU unless they were anesthesia)

Total number of vacation weeks was equal, but the intensity of the two programs was not even close.
Click to expand...

However most people who are prelim also have longer residencies because they go onto specialties, vs. categoricals who mostly become hospitalists and what not, who end their residencies at the 3 year mark. Sure some do fellowships but many do not. Schedules should be fair period
 
gracie369 said:
If you cross covered then you would be on a different team with your own resident. Everyone cross covers. Either way I'm sure you're a stronger person for doing those few months.
Click to expand...
I'm saying the categorical interns signed out their patients to the other intern while they went to clinic, so I answered pages on the whole team's patients and did any admissions while they were gone (mostly twiddling their thumbs given the absurd clinic no show rate).

I also did more ward/NF months than the categoricals, meaning less days off during the year.

Programs vary widely in treatment of prelims.
 
DrBowtie said:
I'm saying the categorical interns signed out their patients to the other intern while they went to clinic, so I answered pages on the whole team's patients and did any admissions while they were gone (mostly twiddling their thumbs given the absurd clinic no show rate).

I also did more ward/NF months than the categoricals, meaning less days off during the year.

Programs vary widely in treatment of prelims.
Click to expand...

That was my experience during intern year.

I did a transitional year. I recall during my surgical months, the interns peaced out for clinic or to "do colonoscopies." One time we had 2-3 patients actively crashing that needed to be actively managed and then transfered to the ICU. The intern asked if I had it under control because it was her day to go to do colonoscopies. I looked at the intern, and just said "sure, go" despite that person knowing the situation. I contacted the chief resident who was in the OR to inform him of what was going on with the floor pts and all that I had done, and told him they need ICU transfers. He agreed. I followed up with labs and anything else that needed to be done and spoke with the ICU surgical resident and got them transfered. The PAs came when contacted and also assisted as I was the only resident on the floor at that point. The categorical interns have it damn good. I never left before the cats and I came as early as the cats to round. The only benefit to being the prelim was I could peace out when the month ended. We still had several surgical and medical, ICU months, several more nights too and we worked weekends. Gracie is either wrong or just went to a program where the prelim schedule was possibly a shade more cush.

I handled all the pages, consults, admissions, post-op checks during those times on surgery. In medicine, I did all the pages, admissions. We didn't do consults on medicine since they had a separate consult service consisting of a prelim and a cat intern - and yes, one of my months was consults service).
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
Just goes to show that every program is different.

Our categoricals take on WAY more responsibility than the prelims. As chiefs, if there is ever a question about the patients or a critical task that needs doing, it's the categoricals that we turn to and depend on - regardless of who is "on call" that day. The categoricals are also far more willing/likely to stay late on any given day.

I will say that my program doesn't do nearly as good a job getting the prelims into the OR as they do the categoricals...
Click to expand...

Agreed.

I barely saw the OR unless the situation was stable enough for me to go to the OR and update the chief.
I only went once to help drive the camera for a lap chole because they needed a resident to cover the case and there were only 3-4 patients (on that particular week) in the service. The cats got the OR cases, fine by me, but I wouldn't have minded gaining some more OR time as an intern.
 
Bottom line is that since it says you get 4 weeks of vacation in your contract you have absolutely no recourse. You can whine and say it's unfair but at the end of the day they're not breaching your contract.
 
Doctor4Life1769 said:
Agreed.

I barely saw the OR unless the situation was stable enough for me to go to the OR and update the chief.
I only went once to help drive the camera for a lap chole because they needed a resident to cover the case and there were only 3-4 patients (on that particular week) in the service. The cats got the OR cases, fine by me, but I wouldn't have minded gaining some more OR time as an intern.
Click to expand...

MeatTornado said:
Bottom line is that since it says you get 4 weeks of vacation in your contract you have absolutely no recourse. You can whine and say it's unfair but at the end of the day they're not breaching your contract.
Click to expand...

I never agree with these 2 yahoos...ever. Until now.

You're getting your contractually mandated 4 weeks (4?! For real?!) of vacation. You're done in 10 weeks. Find a real battle to fight.
 
gutonc said:
I never agree with these 2 yahoos...ever. Until now.

You're getting your contractually mandated 4 weeks (4?! For real?!) of vacation. You're done in 10 weeks. Find a real battle to fight.
Click to expand...

You're calling me a yahoo? How about you go **** yourself. I've never had an issue with you, but I'm pretty sure a lot of what I say on here is spot on advice.
I don't understand what my statement had anything to do with your statement.
 
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Doctor4Life1769 said:
You're calling me a yahoo? How about you go **** yourself. I've never had an issue with you, but I'm pretty sure a lot of what I say on here is spot on advice.
I don't understand what my statement had anything to do with your statement.
Click to expand...
Wow...sensitive much? I forgot the sarcasm smiley. I'll be sure to remember it next time.
 
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