Questions about EMT/MA/Scribe work after graduating

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LongApple

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Say you are a premed who graduated from college and is now thinking about getting certified in EMT/MA/Scribe work to have clinical experience before applying to medical school.

You apply for a job as one of these after getting certification.

1. Why would someone hire you when they know you are 1) overqualified with a college degree 2) they know you fully intend to leave after some number of months to apply to medical school?

2. What is your advice for finding work as an EMT/MA/Scribe in this situation? Are there other ways to get to do this where there is some arrangement you work as these or volunteer and it is accepted/understood it is for limited # months only? Red cross maybe? I don't see options here Volunteer Opportunities

3. What is a good amount of time to work in one these jobs for medical school applications? Supposing you are doing it full time? 6 months? One year?
 
Well, scribing is typically known to be a stepping stone to something else - people typically don't scribe as a professional career. So with that, it's sort of assumed/known that you're going to be there for a year or so. Specific programs might want a specific time commitment like 1 or 2 years. EMT work is similar. You can work either at a private company, in which case they are free to seek a time commitment from you as they wish, or volunteer as an extracurricular activity. In that case, if you already have your certification, they'll be glad to have you. But if you don't have it yet, they're probably not going to take you because you have to take a state-approved training course which typically runs about a semester-length and then you have to pass all the certifying exams. That could take half a year and if they invest that time in you, they'll want some time commitment (typically 2 years).

I don't think you're asking the right question with (3). There's no right or wrong amount of time to work. You should be doing this because you want to, not to check some box off. There are easier ways to check boxes off.
 
Three of my current scribes fit that exact description. It is very common. Become an ED scribe. It’s better than EMT or MA. 6 months to one year is fine. I wouldn’t do less than that.
 
I worked as an EMT and MA prior to going to medical school and I loved both. You would have no problem getting hired by a private service if you finished your EMT training but you would be doing mostly transfer calls which aren't all that exciting. PM me if you have any specific questions.
 
Become an ED scribe. It’s better than EMT or MA.

I'm super curious about this! Alot of SDN users seem to swear by scribing. I believe it but am just curious.

1. How is better than being an MA? Don't you have less patient contact than say an MA?

2. If you did scribing, would you realistically need to supplement this with an activity involving patient contact?

3. Why an ED scribe specifically as opposed to a scribe in another area of the hospital?
 
I'm super curious about this! Alot of SDN users seem to swear by scribing. I believe it but am just curious.

1. How is better than being an MA? Don't you have less patient contact than say an MA?

2. If you did scribing, would you realistically need to supplement this with an activity involving patient contact?

3. Why an ED scribe specifically as opposed to a scribe in another area of the hospital?
1. You just don’t lay hands on patients as a scribe. You’re still witnessing everything the physician does.
2. No.
3. Two reasons: 1) the ED is a great place to learn about tons of medicine and gives you a great foundation to build on and 2) most ED docs are chill and will help you get into med school.
 
3. Two reasons: 1) the ED is a great place to learn about tons of medicine and gives you a great foundation to build on and 2) most ED docs are chill and will help you get into med school.

Apologies for my English.

I searched "ED doctor" on google to find out what it is and the entire first page is about erectile dysfunction doctors.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ed+...0l2j69i60l2.1407j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

But I'm guessing ED = emergency doctor? Is it short for emergency medicine doctor?

In a past thread there is mention of "ER scribe"
Medical Asst. or Scribe?

Does ED=ER?
 
Last edited:
Apologies for my English.

I searched "ED doctor" on google to find out what it is and the entire first page is about erectile dysfunction doctors.
https://www.google.com/search?q=ed+...0l2j69i60l2.1407j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

But I'm guessing ED = emergency doctor? Is it short for emergency medicine doctor?

In a past thread there is mention of "ER scribe"
Medical Asst. or Scribe?

Does ED=ER?
ED also stands fro Emergency Dep't.

I consider scribing ot be glorified shadowing, but it IS a job, and employment skills are something worth having. I'm not a fan of EMT because it's glorified bus driving, unless you're an actual paramedic.
 
Become an ED scribe. It’s better than EMT or MA.

ED also stands fro Emergency Dep't.

I consider scribing ot be glorified shadowing, but it IS a job, and employment skills are something worth having. I'm not a fan of EMT because it's glorified bus driving, unless you're an actual paramedic.

1. Thanks!

2. After reading alot of SDN threads on scribe vs medical assistant this is my impression:

Pro's for Scribe
- lots of time with doctor
- Assuming things go well and can somehow get a D.O. doctor, could ask the D.O. doctor for a recommendation

2.5. If I apply to those companies that match scribes with doctors, then there's no way I can increase the chances I end up with a D.O. doctor? Is there anything you can do to increase the odds of being matched with a D.O. doctor in ED? I'm currently looking for example scribe applications on the internet to see what they ask just to get a sense of this.

Con Scribe
- on some threads, occasionally someone will mention that a school sees scribing as not having enough/diverse enough patient contact
- not talking to or touching patient

Pro MA
- more patient contact
- hands on stuff (blood pressure) is this a significant advantage?

Con MA
- less doctor contact in most cases
- more training

3. Do you agree with the above pros/cons? Do you have any other thoughts?

4. If I do a special masters program (first year medical school program), do you think that those courses would make one competitive for scribing? Or should I try to find a dedicated scribing class?
I heard they exist but I have only found online ones from google search which seem a bit fishy. Am trying to find one maybe D.C. area.
 
If you have the grades and test scores, you don't even need any of that.

I don't get why you guys don't want to simply focus on GPA and MCAT and some simple physician shadowing and genuine volunteer work.

Go do all that scribing, EMT, and CNA stuff for PA school. They actually reward those hours.

While you guys are wasting your time doing all of that, the people that are getting accepted into medical school are studying. Seriously, think about it.
 
If you have the grades and test scores, you don't even need any of that.

I don't get why you guys don't want to simply focus on GPA and MCAT and some simple physician shadowing and genuine volunteer work.

Go do all that scribing, EMT, and CNA stuff for PA school. They actually reward those hours.

While you guys are wasting your time doing all of that, the people that are getting accepted into medical school are studying. Seriously, think about it.

They are definitely doing the bolded, Mike, but I can see the merits to employed clinical experience. A problem nowadays with both rotating medical students and new residents is that residency is their first job ever, and they bring poor employment skills with them (like wanting vacation after 2 days on the job).
 
1. Thanks!

2. After reading alot of SDN threads on scribe vs medical assistant this is my impression:

Pro's for Scribe
- lots of time with doctor
- Assuming things go well and can somehow get a D.O. doctor, could ask the D.O. doctor for a recommendation

2.5. If I apply to those companies that match scribes with doctors, then there's no way I can increase the chances I end up with a D.O. doctor? Is there anything you can do to increase the odds of being matched with a D.O. doctor in ED? I'm currently looking for example scribe applications on the internet to see what they ask just to get a sense of this.

Con Scribe
- on some threads, occasionally someone will mention that a school sees scribing as not having enough/diverse enough patient contact
- not talking to or touching patient

Pro MA
- more patient contact
- hands on stuff (blood pressure) is this a significant advantage?

Con MA
- less doctor contact in most cases
- more training

3. Do you agree with the above pros/cons? Do you have any other thoughts?

4. If I do a special masters program (first year medical school program), do you think that those courses would make one competitive for scribing? Or should I try to find a dedicated scribing class?
I heard they exist but I have only found online ones from google search which seem a bit fishy. Am trying to find one maybe D.C. area.
2.5. Have no idea. But if you're in an ER you can network to meet and then shadow some DOs.
3. Just pick one that's interesting to you.
 
ED also stands fro Emergency Dep't.

I consider scribing ot be glorified shadowing, but it IS a job, and employment skills are something worth having. I'm not a fan of EMT because it's glorified bus driving, unless you're an actual paramedic.

Scribing is so much more than glorified shadowing. You receive a wealth of knowledge in SOAP notes, standards of care, and so much more that will serve you well even in your first year of medical school.

You also get exposed to many docs who will straight up tell you not to go into medicine. Yet the fact you still applied shows your commitment and desire to serve.

OP, I would definitely advise you to seek scribing opportunities during your gap year. Do a Google search to find hospitals are offices in your area that have scribe programs. The one in my area had no problem with me being a college grad because they knew I was pre med. If you have any other questions feel free to message me.
 
Scribing is so much more than glorified shadowing. You receive a wealth of knowledge in SOAP notes, standards of care, and so much more that will serve you well even in your first year of medical school.

You also get exposed to many docs who will straight up tell you not to go into medicine. Yet the fact you still applied shows your commitment and desire to serve.

OP, I would definitely advise you to seek scribing opportunities during your gap year. Do a Google search to find hospitals are offices in your area that have scribe programs. The one in my area had no problem with me being a college grad because they knew I was pre med. If you have any other questions feel free to message me.

Thanks! I PM'd you with questions about being a scribe. I appreciate you doing this.

I also had some question not about scribe but about your message that are unrelated.

Stuff not in PM:

1. "You also get exposed to many docs who will straight up tell you not to go into medicine"
What are the most common reasons the doctors will give when saying this?

2. What do you think a good response is when they say this?

3. I'm guessing if they say this, then they are probably not good to ask a LOR from?
 
A problem nowadays with both rotating medical students and new residents is that residency is their first job ever, and they bring poor employment skills with them (like wanting vacation after 2 days on the job).

Do you say this because do they look tired out too easily / too early in semester? Or they complain about having to be on their feet/working for long periods for the first time?
 
Do you say this because do they look tired out too easily / too early in semester? Or they complain about having to be on their feet/working for long periods for the first time?
No, because they don't understand the responsibilities of holding a job. They think they're still in school and can wander off whenever they please.

Scribing is so much more than glorified shadowing. You receive a wealth of knowledge in SOAP notes, standards of care, and so much more that will serve you well even in your first year of medical school.

You also get exposed to many docs who will straight up tell you not to go into medicine. Yet the fact you still applied shows your commitment and desire to serve.
Oh I agree, but it IS a passive experience, as opposed to actually interacting with patients in other clinical venues.
 
They are definitely doing the bolded, Mike, but I can see the merits to employed clinical experience. A problem nowadays with both rotating medical students and new residents is that residency is their first job ever, and they bring poor employment skills with them (like wanting vacation after 2 days on the job).

That's interesting you bring that up. I'm in my early 30's so I've had a few jobs under my belt including minimum wage labor from high school so I always think everybody else has had a job. That is crazy to think a residency could be someone's first real job. If it is I could see that whole experience hitting someone like a load of bricks if you haven't developed the thick skin to deal with the politics of the "work environment" or working your way up the hierarchy in the world of medicine.

Regarding experience, would you advise students to get some clinical exposure under their belt and then totally bypass the clinical route to focus on areas of interest that set them apart from everyone else? At every open-house the Dean of Admissions gives this speech that "...we're looking for students who are passionate." Most might assume he means passionate about medicine but surprisingly that's not necessarily what he is talking about. Our student body is composed of students who have been committed to some activity or interest for most of their life. We have a college hockey player, an accomplished cultural dancer, someone who has a very high ranking black belt in a martial arts discipline, and I suspect my published photography piqued their interest since that is what we talked about during my interview.

One thing that still amazes me about med school compared to undergrad is that this class appears to be very homogeneous. It's almost like they put a class together that oddly has excellent chemistry from the get go. I don't know how they do it at other schools but it's a beautiful thing. I actually like being around these guys. You would never guess that 90% of this class was "pre-med."

As far as I can tell, none of us have any more hours in excess of the norm for shadowing and clinical work-related experience but we all got in and some of us even at multiple schools. Based on my experience I have this inclination now to tell others to skip the stuff that everybody else seems to be doing and do something that makes you stand out. I just feel that after 80-100 hours of shadowing, the return is marginal. I mean how much surgery can you watch and then be content with just watching? Some of these students invest a ridiculous amount of time into some of these "clinical" activities thinking that it will be their ticket into medical school and I'm not too sure that is the case but they really have no way of knowing what is worth it and what isn't. That is why I suggested, do what you can do, be yourself, and hit the books.

Any input on that idea?
 
I just feel that after 80-100 hours of shadowing, the return is marginal.

Is this a common view on SDN? I guess I have no sense of what is common yet.

I have ~ 40 hours. No doctor would know me well enough to write a LOR.

I did hear getting a D.O. to write a LOR is good for D.O. schools so I guess that is one motivation I have, but hey I am just now reading about stuff and am curious what you guys think if scribing definitely makes it easier to get a good D.O. LOR.

Maybe people feel that being a scribe for 6 months gets them a better recommendation? Anyone feel that this is true/not true?
 
Is this a common view on SDN? I guess I have no sense of what is common yet.

I have ~ 40 hours. No doctor would know me well enough to write a LOR.

I did hear getting a D.O. to write a LOR is good for D.O. schools so I guess that is one motivation I have, but hey I am just now reading about stuff and am curious what you guys think if scribing definitely makes it easier to get a good D.O. LOR.

Maybe people feel that being a scribe for 6 months gets them a better recommendation? Anyone feel that this is true/not true?

To be fair, I got my hours through a school-sponsored clinical observership (shadowing) program. So I accumulated those hours in two weeks. I believe Drexel has a similar program that runs for a month in the summer so you can easily accumulate legitimate clinical shadowing hours via a program like that. 80-100 hours spaced out is still a lot of shadowing hours and more than plenty of time for an attending to get to know you. I just suggested that after X amount of hours, your time is better spent investing in setting yourself apart from the next applicant.
 
I don't get why you guys don't want to simply focus on GPA and MCAT and some simple physician shadowing and genuine volunteer work.
/QUOTE]


If your GPA was basically set, do you think scribing still only has marginal benefit over shadowing?

For volunteer work, some on the forum people say that the usual hospital volunteer (pushing people in wheelchairs, greeting people) is not very useful for med school applications.
Do you agree with them?
 
Regarding experience, would you advise students to get some clinical exposure under their belt and then totally bypass the clinical route to focus on areas of interest that set them apart from everyone else? At every open-house the Dean of Admissions gives this speech that "...we're looking for students who are passionate." Most might assume he means passionate about medicine but surprisingly that's not necessarily what he is talking about. Our student body is composed of students who have been committed to some activity or interest for most of their life. We have a college hockey player, an accomplished cultural dancer, someone who has a very high ranking black belt in a martial arts discipline, and I suspect my published photography piqued their interest since that is what we talked about during my interview.

We look for people who love what hey do and do what they love. At interviews, real passion shines through.

One thing that still amazes me about med school compared to undergrad is that this class appears to be very homogeneous. It's almost like they put a class together that oddly has excellent chemistry from the get go. I don't know how they do it at other schools but it's a beautiful thing.
To tell you the truth, I don't know how we do it either.


I actually like being around these guys. You would never guess that 90% of this class was "pre-med."
Ditto. I love my students. They also seem to lose the gunner mentality as soon as they matriculate.


As far as I can tell, none of us have any more hours in excess of the norm for shadowing and clinical work-related experience but we all got in and some of us even at multiple schools. Based on my experience I have this inclination now to tell others to skip the stuff that everybody else seems to be doing and do something that makes you stand out. I just feel that after 80-100 hours of shadowing, the return is marginal. I mean how much surgery can you watch and then be content with just watching? Some of these students invest a ridiculous amount of time into some of these "clinical" activities thinking that it will be their ticket into medical school and I'm not too sure that is the case but they really have no way of knowing what is worth it and what isn't. That is why I suggested, do what you can do, be yourself, and hit the books.

Any input on that idea?

I agree that 40-50 hrs of shadowing is all you need. Remember, the purpose is to see what a doctor's day is like and to see how different docs approach the practice of Medicine. You can get the idea pretty quickly.
[/QUOTE]

I have ~ 40 hours. No doctor would know me well enough to write a LOR.
it sounds like you're not engaging them enough. Do you ask them questions about thier day? Why those chose Medicine? Why they chose their speciality/specific place to do residency/med school? How they came to their clinical decisions about the patients they saw? If just following the doctors around like a duckling, naturally you're not going to get a LOR.

I did hear getting a D.O. to write a LOR is good for D.O. schools so I guess that is one motivation I have, but hey I am just now reading about stuff and am curious what you guys think if scribing definitely makes it easier to get a good D.O. LOR.
It seems like you'll come into m contact with more doctors. You can also use the doctor you are scribing for as a contact to recommend other doctors to go talk to.

Maybe people feel that being a scribe for 6 months gets them a better recommendation? Anyone feel that this is true/not true?
Only if you're a good scribe, I suppose. Remember, in this context, you're an employee.
 

This is for @LongApple I'm not a committee member so don't quote me as such and take my input with a grain of salt. I'm just a medical student who understands this process a little bit more than I did a year or so ago.

Having said that, if you have the GPA and MCAT scores that fall within the range of acceptances to your target schools, scribing, EMS, and gigs to that effect are a complete waste of your time IMO if you think the experience alone will impress an admissions committee member. Instead, get HIGHER quality physician shadowing that produces a quality LOR. But like Goro has said, any job that can get you work experience is certainly valuable so none of those experience are "wrong" to have. My argument is time is not infinite and you only have so much time to perfect an application. I feel that there are better things out there than scribing, EMS, and just the standard hospital Jr. volunteer gigs. I mean there are programs out there that will let you scrub into the OR and be 2-3 feet away from mastectomies, hernia repairs, knee replacement, D&C's, amputations, etc. That's a lot more interesting than pushing a wheelchair and that experience alone can help some people realize that medicine may not be for them. Scribing and EMS may even give you a false realization of what medicine really is.

The message I want to make clear is that GPA and MCAT are a lot more serious than you might even think they are. Here is a very silly example but maybe it might click for some of you. Think of a medical school acceptance as one of those trendy Canada Goose jackets. Thick of the Canada Goose logo as the MCAT and the coyote fur-lined hood as your GPA. Your EC's are the feathers in the jacket. The point of the analogy is if you take the logo off and get rid of the hood, would you still pay $1000 for the jacket that is left? I mean the feathers are still there but they don't mean that much anymore. Just like the logo and the real fur make the Canada Goose jacket desirable to the consumer, that's how these adcoms are looking at you. Can't you always seem to spot someone with a Canada Goose down jacket from a mile away? Well that's how your MCAT and GPA will jump off an application.
 
This is for @LongApple I'm not a committee member so don't quote me as such and take my input with a grain of salt. I'm just a medical student who understands this process a little bit more than I did a year or so ago.

Having said that, if you have the GPA and MCAT scores that fall within the range of acceptances to your target schools, scribing, EMS, and gigs to that effect are a complete waste of your time IMO if you think the experience alone will impress an admissions committee member. Instead, get HIGHER quality physician shadowing that produces a quality LOR. But like Goro has said, any job that can get you work experience is certainly valuable so none of those experience are "wrong" to have. My argument is time is not infinite and you only have so much time to perfect an application. I feel that there are better things out there than scribing, EMS, and just the standard hospital Jr. volunteer gigs. I mean there are programs out there that will let you scrub into the OR and be 2-3 feet away from mastectomies, hernia repairs, knee replacement, D&C's, amputations, etc. That's a lot more interesting than pushing a wheelchair and that experience alone can help some people realize that medicine may not be for them. Scribing and EMS may even give you a false realization of what medicine really is.

The message I want to make clear is that GPA and MCAT are a lot more serious than you might even think they are. Here is a very silly example but maybe it might click for some of you. Think of a medical school acceptance as one of those trendy Canada Goose jackets. Thick of the Canada Goose logo as the MCAT and the coyote fur-lined hood as your GPA. Your EC's are the feathers in the jacket. The point of the analogy is if you take the logo off and get rid of the hood, would you still pay $1000 for the jacket that is left? I mean the feathers are still there but they don't mean that much anymore. Just like the logo and the real fur make the Canada Goose jacket desirable to the consumer, that's how these adcoms are looking at you. Can't you always seem to spot someone with a Canada Goose down jacket from a mile away? Well that's how your MCAT and GPA will jump off an application.
Scribing produces amazing letters of recommendation, an insane wealth of clinical knowledge, shadowing time, job experience, some money, and massive amounts of connections. You really have no idea what you are talking about.
 
Scribing produces amazing letters of recommendation, an insane wealth of clinical knowledge, shadowing time, job experience, some money, and massive amounts of connections. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

Well that's your perspective and I can respect your opinion but it's still just an opinion. I never scribed. I never cared to. I don't think I missed anything. I'm in medical school. To each their own though.

Keep in mind you and I could be from two very different geographical locations and that could actually have a lot to do with how we both view scribing.
 
The way it worked at my scribing company was that you worked with whichever doc was concurrent with your shift, so I got to work with/get to know quite a few both MDs and DOs. So it wouldn't have been difficult to find a DO letter (they were all very happy to help out premeds, provided that you were professional). I'm not sure if that's how it works at every company. This was in the ED btw.

and yeah, I really feel that in general the LOR that you can get from scribing > shadowing because they can speak to qualities that are inherent to the job, like professionalism, ability to work with others on the healthcare team, willingness to take criticism, etc. A physician that you just shadow can't really attest to those qualities.

It's true that the experience can be variable though. I have friends who really didn't feel they got much out of scribing. It probably depends a lot on the hospital and the company.
 
Scribing produces amazing letters of recommendation, an insane wealth of clinical knowledge, shadowing time, job experience, some money, and massive amounts of connections. You really have no idea what you are talking about.

Just to be more specific on this, what "insane clinical knowledge" does a scribe come away with? And that's not me trying to be facetious. I genuinely would like to know for future reference. Also, how much better are a scribes "connections" compared to the pre-med ER tech who is ACTUALLY assisting the physician and touching the patient? From what I recall during my time working in the ED, the scribes were all sitting at the nurses station until they were needed while the tech was busy assisting in compressions for that STEMI that just rolled through the door.

But like you said, I have no idea what I'm talking about.
 
Just to be more specific on this, what "insane clinical knowledge" does a scribe come away with? And that's not me trying to be facetious. I genuinely would like to know for future reference. Also, how much better are a scribes "connections" compared to the pre-med ER tech who is ACTUALLY assisting the physician and touching the patient? From what I recall during my time working in the ED, the scribes were all sitting at the nurses station until they were needed while the tech was busy assisting in compressions for that STEMI that just rolled through the door.

But like you said, I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Scribes learn how to think like attendings. They learn HPI, differentials, documentation, MDM, billing, etc. More importantly they see EVERY patient we see and then learn how to approach each one. They are basically just an extension of the attending. I have seen former scribes in the ED as MS3s and they usually function at the level of a PGY1 or above.

I would give a better letter to one of my scribes than an ER tech because I know my scribes way better than my techs.
 
Scribes learn how to think like attendings. They learn HPI, differentials, documentation, MDM, billing, etc. More importantly they see EVERY patient we see and then learn how to approach each one. They are basically just an extension of the attending. I have seen former scribes in the ED as MS3s and they usually function at the level of a PGY1 or above.

I would give a better letter to one of my scribes than an ER tech because I know my scribes way better than my techs.

Did you pass this information on to the PA community? I think those guys are getting the short end of the stick here.
 
I did both EMT (non-911, roughly 900 hours) and ED scribe (~1500 hours, non-trauma hospital)

They've both got pros and cons and I'm very happy I did both of them. If I had to choose one, I'd probably do the ED scribe. You really learn how to think like a doctor in terms of understanding how to gather histories, pertinent negatives/positives in the history/physical exam, how insurance/billing can affect patient care, and of course how to create a story when the patient and their family are bouncing all over the place when trying to explain symptoms. Charting is going to be a big part of your future as a doctor and working as a scribe will prepare you a bit.

EMT is complicated in that there is a HUGE variety of experiences. You can do 911, non-911, BLS interfacility transport, CCT (critical care transport), work with the fire department, etc. Whatever anyone tells you about their EMT experience, take it with a grain of salt because your experience can be completely different. I found the direct patient interaction as an EMT to be fulfilling in comparison to my ED work. It's fun to get to know patients, gather a history, do an exam, and prepare a report for the nurse/doctor/etc you will be passing patient care onto. Driving lights and sirens is pretty exhilarating too. As much as I enjoyed scribing, my particular experience doesn't give me many opportunities to work directly with patients so being an EMT fulfilled that role for me.

You should also take into consideration the costs of EMT school/registration. It was easily over 1000 for me whereas scribing only requires me to buy my own scrubs.

Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions!
 
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