Questions on URM and ORM

[Cavs5284]

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I've been thinking about two particular topics in this debate that rarely get mentioned specifically and was wondering if anyone would chime in or provide more information on the topic.

Question 1: Are students from recently immigrated African/Caribbean families overrepresented in medical school/US healthcare system and do they receive a URM boost? To clarify, I am speaking specifically of people coming from immigration waves after the Civil Rights Act who still deal with the usual discrimination that comes with being an immigrant and racial profiling, but lack the history of systematic institutional discrimination by the US government and academic institutions.


Disclaimer: I actually would like this thread to remain civil since I don't believe these specific questions are adequately addressed on many threads on this topic.

EDIT: I removed the question on Asians in admissions compared to white applicants, as it has been adequately addressed in other threads, but question 1 has not.

 

[Mad Jack]

I've been thinking about two particular topics in this debate that rarely get mentioned specifically and was wondering if anyone would chime in or provide more information on the topic.

Question 1: Are students from recently immigrated African/Caribbean families overrepresented in medical school/US healthcare system and do they receive a URM boost? To clarify, I am speaking specifically of people coming from immigration waves after the Civil Rights Act who still deal with the usual discrimination that comes with being an immigrant and racial profiling, but lack the history of systematic institutional discrimination by the US government and academic institutions.

Question 2: Why are Asian students being held to a higher standard than white students if white patients generally do not have strong preferences for same-race physicians? This is something I never quite understood, and at the very best just seems arbitrary and at the worst, potentially racist.

Disclaimer: I actually would like this thread to remain civil since I don't believe these specific questions are adequately addressed on many threads on this topic.

1: Yes.

2: There's actually not a lot of proof that Asian students are held to a higher standard. If you look into the data, Asian students tend to apply heavily to the coasts, and to live largely in a small cluster of states, thus limiting their admission to many state schools by residence and many non-coastal schools by personal choice. There is only a small percentage difference in white versus Asian admissions in medical school that is largely likely due to both population and application clustering.

 

[deleted393595]

I've been thinking about two particular topics in this debate that rarely get mentioned specifically and was wondering if anyone would chime in or provide more information on the topic.

Question 1: Are students from recently immigrated African/Caribbean families overrepresented in medical school/US healthcare system and do they receive a URM boost? To clarify, I am speaking specifically of people coming from immigration waves after the Civil Rights Act who still deal with the usual discrimination that comes with being an immigrant and racial profiling, but lack the history of systematic institutional discrimination by the US government and academic institutions.

Question 2: Why are Asian students being held to a higher standard than white students if white patients generally do not have strong preferences for same-race physicians? This is something I never quite understood, and at the very best just seems arbitrary and at the worst, potentially racist.

Disclaimer: I actually would like this thread to remain civil since I don't believe these specific questions are adequately addressed on many threads on this topic.

Here we go again

 

[Womb Raider]

white patients generally do not have strong preferences for same-race physicians

I'd be interested to read more about this, can you give me a link?

 

[Mad Jack]

I'd be interested to read more about this, can you give me a link?

It's filed right between Bovine Excrement and Totally Not Making Stuff Up to Incite Rage.

 

[Lawpy]

Disclaimer: I actually would like this thread to remain civil since I don't believe these specific questions are adequately addressed on many threads on this topic.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

I'm thinking the mods asked Cavs5284 to start this thread in order to test pre-allo.

 

[DoctorDrewOutsidetheLines]

*side-eye*

 

[ofthesaints]

What you think the disclaimer looked like:

"Disclaimer: I actually would like this thread to remain civil since I don't believe these specific questions are adequately addressed on many threads on this topic."

What it probably looked like for most of the posters who keep on going in circles about AA:

"Disclaimer: I actually would like this thread to remain civil since I don't believe these specific questions are adequately addressed on many threads on this topic."

Or better yet:

""

 

[Chelsea FC]

LOL come on man not one more of these threads ... Someone ask about MD vs DO .

 

[Cookie04]

No! No more!!!!!

 

[Noomm]

1: Yes.

2: There's actually not a lot of proof that Asian students are held to a higher standard. If you look into the data, Asian students tend to apply heavily to the coasts, and to live largely in a small cluster of states, thus limiting their admission to many state schools by residence and many non-coastal schools by personal choice. There is only a small percentage difference in white versus Asian admissions in medical school that is largely likely due to both population and application clustering.

Although I don't know if you've ever directly said it, I'm assuming that you're a URM judging from your posts in the past. It's ironic that you and the other URMs on this forum never acknowledge racism towards Asians and just chalk it up to reasons that basically fall under the category of "It's Their Own Fault." As much as I've seen URMs preach about how other people need to be more open minded, I haven't yet seen one URM on this forum that would actually be described as such.

Hypocrisy, hypocrisy - there is no stopping thee.

 

[NickNaylor]

I think there exists a point of confusion from people with respect to URM admissions in that people seem to think people who are otherwise not qualified to get into medical school end up getting into medical school strictly as a function of their race (or vice versa: people who are qualified to get into medical school won't because of their race). This really isn't the case, at least not directly. Are the stats for some URMs lower than for other ethnicities? Yes - just look at the data. Does this actually mean anything? Well, it may correlate to lower scores on standardized exams, but short of that not really. Doing better or worse on exams does not mean you are going to be a better or worse doctor. What it means is that you're good at standardized tests, which is advantageous from both a medical school and a residency program perspective as there is less concern about your ability to pass the exams that you need to pass in order to successfully complete your training.

My best friend going on 10+ years is a URM who scored <30 on the MCAT but got into one of the best public schools in the country. He scored <220 on step 1 but ended up at a quality residency program and has been doing well. I would have no qualms about sending my kids to him when he completes his training. Test scores and academic achievement are only one part of the picture, and apart from doing what you need to do in order to get your license and become board-certified, they are largely meaningless except as a predictor for future performance.

In medical school admissions, there is also strong belief in the thought that having people of a variety of backgrounds is helpful in order to get that whole diversity thing going and exposing students to other students of different backgrounds. There is also data to support the idea that some people (namely, URMs) have a preference for seeing a doctor with which they share an ethnic background, further legitimizing the idea that URM admissions is a good idea. You might disagree, and I think time will tell whether a program like this actually has much of an impact on achieving those goals of "increasing access" to these communities who, for one reason or another, feel that seeing an ORM physician isn't preferable. From my own experience, there were some URMs in my medical school class that absolutely intended to practice in their own communities at the end of their training, though this is not a universal goal from what I can tell.

Regardless, if you're a qualified applicant you will get into medical school - whether ORM or URM - and no is going to be "stealing your seat." Is it unfair? Maybe, maybe not, I suppose it depends on your perspective. But it doesn't matter one way or another, just as it doesn't matter that there are applicants with better applications than yours that might be "stealing your seat" regardless of their race.

 

[Noomm]

I think there exists a point of confusion from people with respect to URM admissions in that people seem to think people who are otherwise not qualified to get into medical school end up getting into medical school strictly as a function of their race (or vice versa: people who are qualified to get into medical school won't because of their race). This really isn't the case, at least not directly. Are the stats for some URMs lower than for other ethnicities? Yes - just look at the data. Does this actually mean anything? Well, it may correlate to lower scores on standardized exams, but short of that not really. Doing better or worse on exams does not mean you are going to be a better or worse doctor. What it means is that you're good at standardized tests, which is advantageous from both a medical school and a residency program perspective as there is less concern about your ability to pass the exams that you need to pass in order to successfully complete your training.

My best friend going on 10+ years is a URM who scored <30 on the MCAT but got into one of the best public schools in the country. He scored <220 on step 1 but ended up at a quality residency program and has been doing well. I would have no qualms about sending my kids to him when he completes his training. Test scores and academic achievement are only one part of the picture, and apart from doing what you need to do in order to get your license and become board-certified, they are largely meaningless except as a predictor for future performance.

In medical school admissions, there is also strong belief in the thought that having people of a variety of backgrounds is helpful in order to get that whole diversity thing going and exposing students to other students of different backgrounds. There is also data to support the idea that some people (namely, URMs) have a preference for seeing a doctor with which they share an ethnic background, further legitimizing the idea that URM admissions is a good idea. You might disagree, and I think time will tell whether a program like this actually has much of an impact on achieving those goals of "increasing access" to these communities who, for one reason or another, feel that seeing an ORM physician isn't preferable. From my own experience, there were some URMs in my medical school class that absolutely intended to practice in their own communities at the end of their training, though this is not a universal goal from what I can tell.

Regardless, if you're a qualified applicant you will get into medical school - whether ORM or URM - and no is going to be "stealing your seat." Is it unfair? Maybe, maybe not, I suppose it depends on your perspective. But it doesn't matter one way or another, just as it doesn't matter that there are applicants with better applications than yours that might be "stealing your seat" regardless of their race.

"Many words mark the speech of a fool." - Ecclesiastes 5:3

Bravo. You managed to write enough words to make it difficult to discern that you just completely contradicted yourself in your own post. How do you reconcile these two beliefs of yours:

I think there exists a point of confusion from people with respect to URM admissions in that people seem to think people who are otherwise not qualified to get into medical school end up getting into medical school strictly as a function of their race (or vice versa: people who are qualified to get into medical school won't because of their race).

Regardless, if you're a qualified applicant you will get into medical school - whether ORM or URM - and no is going to be "stealing your seat."

The only way I see to reconcile them is by saying that being URM makes you more qualified for medical school. If you believe this, then fine. But know that we have a word for this - racism.

 

[NickNaylor]

"Many words mark the speech of a fool." - Ecclesiastes 5:3

Bravo. You managed to write enough words to make it difficult to discern that you just completely contradicted yourself in your own post. How do you reconcile these two beliefs of yours:

The only way I see to reconcile them is by saying that being URM makes you more qualified for medical school. If you believe this, then fine. But know that we have a word for this - racism.

The problem is that you're framing the comparator as "more" or "less" "qualified." This is a construct that only exists in the minds of neurotic pre-meds whose major or even primary sense of self-worth is test scores, require external validation of their work and awesomeness, and a belief that objective measures are universal. There is no contradiction in my post. You are manufacturing a contradiction because you think higher MCAT scores/higher GPA/more hours doing X automatically means you are "better qualified" and, therefore, more deserving. My argument is only that there is a minimal floor requirement beyond which there is no meaningful difference save ego-boosting performance on standardized measures and the ability to get into competitive schools that can choose the highest scores/GPAs and most "impressive" accomplishments because they have an insane applicant pool to choose from. I do not believe that any of those things make you a better or more qualified student doctor or physician in the future. Thus, once you surpass a minimum threshold of achievement, it's all gravy and is really meaningless apart from being able to whip out your ruler and say, "mine's bigger than yours."

Anyone who gets into medical school meets this minimum threshold. A medical school will not admit someone they don't think is qualified because it's not in their best interest. This is why URMs with lower statistical averages still become doctors, still get into residency programs, and still become competent physicians in spite of those numbers. They just don't matter beyond a certain point.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

*grabs popcorn*

 

[Noomm]

The problem is that you're framing the comparator as "more" or "less" "qualified." This is a construct that only exists in the minds of neurotic pre-meds whose major or even primary sense of self-worth is test scores, require external validation of their work and awesomeness, and a belief that objective measures are universal. There is no contradiction in my post. You are manufacturing a contradiction because you think higher MCAT scores/higher GPA/more hours doing X automatically means you are "better qualified" and, therefore, more deserving. My argument is only that there is a minimal floor requirement beyond which there is no meaningful difference save ego-boosting performance on standardized measures and the ability to get into competitive schools that can choose the highest scores/GPAs and most "impressive" accomplishments because they have an insane applicant pool to choose from. I do not believe that any of those things make you a better or more qualified student doctor or physician in the future. Thus, once you surpass a minimum threshold of achievement, it's all gravy and is really meaningless apart from being able to whip out your ruler and say, "mine's bigger than yours."

Anyone who gets into medical school meets this minimum threshold. A medical school will not admit someone they don't think is qualified because it's not in their best interest. This is why URMs with lower statistical averages still become doctors, still get into residency programs, and still become competent physicians in spite of those numbers. They just don't matter beyond a certain point.

I agree with you that they are still competent physicians. However, let's look at this hypothetical. If someone receives a C in a class while another person receives an A, both are demonstrating competence of the material. But who is better qualified?

Your point is essentially that if someone is competent in something then they are qualified enough to do the job. I agree - that's the very definition of competence. But your argument is disingenuous because you are dancing around the issue of what makes someone a better qualified candidate. Saying that someone is a better qualified candidate is not the same as saying that the other candidate is not competent.

Admit that you are a racist who propagates the notion that URMs deserve preferential treatment in the admissions process and your argument begins to make sense. As it stands now, you are simply dancing around the crux of your argument by not saying it outright.

 

[NickNaylor]

I agree with you that they are still competent physicians. However, let's look at this hypothetical. If someone receives a C in a class while another person receives an A, both are demonstrating competence of the material. But who is better qualified?

Your point is essentially that if someone is competent in something then they are qualified enough to do the job. I agree - that's the very definition of competence. But your argument is disingenuous because you are dancing around the issue of what makes someone a better qualified candidate. Saying that someone is a better qualified candidate is not the same as saying that the other candidate is not competent.

Admit that you are a racist who propagates the notion that URMs deserve preferential treatment in the admissions process and your argument begins to make sense. As it stands now, you are simply dancing around the crux of your argument by not saying it outright.

My argument that is that it really doesn't matter if someone gets a C in a class and someone gets an A, I have no doubt that they could handle medical school. In my mind, there is no real difference in terms of someone being qualified to complete medical school between someone with a GPA of 3.5 vs. 4.0 or an MCAT of 33 vs. 41 (or whatever the new scoring scale is). I don't think either is "more" or "less" qualified - they are simply qualified.

 

[Cotterpin]

I agree with you that they are still competent physicians. However, let's look at this hypothetical. If someone receives a C in a class while another person receives an A, both are demonstrating competence of the material. But who is better qualified?

Your point is essentially that if someone is competent in something then they are qualified enough to do the job. I agree - that's the very definition of competence. But your argument is disingenuous because you are dancing around the issue of what makes someone a better qualified candidate. Saying that someone is a better qualified candidate is not the same as saying that the other candidate is not competent.

Admit that you are a racist who propagates the notion that URMs deserve preferential treatment in the admissions process and your argument begins to make sense. As it stands now, you are simply dancing around the crux of your argument by not saying it outright.

Man, just admit that you are a troll.

Why do keep ignoring the point NickNaylor is making that receiving a C or an A in an undergrad premed class doesn't have much to do with how qualified you are to become a physician?

Taking extra care to admit groups of people who are Under Represented Minorities is not racism. They are under represented in medicine. They're already at a disadvantage.

 

[Noomm]

My argument that is that it really doesn't matter if someone gets a C in a class and someone gets an A, I have no doubt that they could handle medical school. In my mind, there is no real difference in terms of someone being qualified to complete medical school between someone with a GPA of 3.5 vs. 4.0 or an MCAT of 33 vs. 41 (or whatever the new scoring scale is). I don't think either is "more" or "less" qualified - they are simply qualified.

If that's the case, it's a ludicrous argument because you have to select for something. Even if you aren't selecting for candidates using objective qualities such as the GPA and MCAT, you are still selecting for something. Your argument, which for some reason you won't directly say, is that selecting for candidates using their race makes more sense than selecting for them using objective qualities.

 

[Cotterpin]

If that's the case, it's a ludicrous argument because you have to select for something. Even if you aren't selecting for candidates using objective qualities such as the GPA and MCAT, you are still selecting for something. Your argument, which for some reason you won't directly say, is that selecting for candidates using their race makes more sense than selecting for them using objective qualities.

You're talking about this like there aren't a million other subjective qualities that come into play. Like whether or not a person is a horrible troll. This isn't just a matter of people getting selected based on their stats vs. their race. Jesus...

 

[DasRacis]

My argument that is that it really doesn't matter if someone gets a C in a class and someone gets an A, I have no doubt that they could handle medical school. In my mind, there is no real difference in terms of someone being qualified to complete medical school between someone with a GPA of 3.5 vs. 4.0 or an MCAT of 33 vs. 41 (or whatever the new scoring scale is). I don't think either is "more" or "less" qualified - they are simply qualified.

I agree that achieving above a certain threshhold of GPA and MCAT means that a student can handle medical school. But you can't deny the fact that affirmative action is resulting in medical schools accepting underqualified students who cannot handle medical school as well. Look at these attrition rates for African American students. https://www.aamc.org/download/102346/data/aibvol7no2.pdf

Each med school drop out means one less doctor in our health care system. It also means that a white or asian was rejected in favor of an applicant who could not complete medical school.

Now MCAT has been correlated with success in medical school (and the correlation is even stronger than that of GPA). Do you not agree that this correlation, albeit weaker, holds even for MCAT scores above 26? Or when it goes past 26, does it suddenly not hold any value whatsoever in predicting ranking, grades or attrition rates?

 

[Noomm]

You're talking about this like there aren't a million other subjective qualities that come into play. Like whether or not a person is a horrible troll. This isn't just a matter of people getting selected based on their stats vs. their race. Jesus...

That was a pretty infantile response. I don't even know how to reply to you because there isn't any substance in your post apart from name-calling and mudslinging.

 

[DasRacis]

You're talking about this like there aren't a million other subjective qualities that come into play. Like whether or not a person is a horrible troll. This isn't just a matter of people getting selected based on their stats vs. their race. Jesus...

According to AAMCAS, of the 2939 white applicants with a 3.4-3.59 and MCAT 27-29, 900 were accepted. (30%)

https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstable25-4.pdf

Of the 228 black applicants with the same stats, 185 were accepted. (81%)

https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/factstable25-2.pdf

So you're saying none of those 2039 white applicants who were rejected had significant life experiences to warrant acceptance, yet nearly 80% of black applicants did?

 

[feather421]

California is a really difficult school system, and a really large percentage of Asian Americans live in California,
making up 14.4% of the California population and 5.4% of the total US population.

California's medical school graduates: 40.5% White, 4.3% Black 31.1% Asian, 9.5% Hispanic. In California medical schools, Asian students are twice as represented as they are in the state, and almost 6x as represented as compared to the entire US population. The difference in white and Asian students % acceptance rates with similar GPA and MCAT scores is ~5-10%, which is reasonable considering the California disadvantage and the instate advantages of more midwest schools.

 

[GrapesofRath]

To go off number 2 of what @Mad Jack the best thing you can do is look at whites vs Asians on the AAMC table 24 or the graphs at the top of the WAMC thread. For each GPA/MCAT combination, the % of Asians accepted is about on average 6-7% lower than the % of whites with those stats. And the thing about Asians being clustered is true, and many of them being clustered in less favorable stats( CA being the most prominent example). But at the end of the day you are talking about say 56% of whites being accepted who had a certain GPA/MCAT combo vs 50% of Asians accepted with that same combo. If you want to argue ORMs have it hardest that's fine and there's some merit to it perhaps, but realize you are arguing about a 6% difference at best, and honestly it's probably smaller than that due to what MadJack alluded to.

I do also think it's worth noting that LizzyM hypothesized(more just was spit-balling in one thread a few weeks back) that it's possible in coming years some schools in the name of "holistic admissions" and "creating diversity" some schools might take more URMs in the place of ORMs. But this seemed like pure conjecture and a potential idea that might come true and not something that has become a reality yet. While I am in the relative minority on SDN and do not support how AA is used in medical school admission, people do have to realize what they are arguing when they argue against AA and its impact. I'll just leave it at that.

Anyway, that's my semi-monthly contribution to the weekly AA threads. I think I'll be good until December for another post on it.

 

[Cotterpin]

That was a pretty infantile response. I don't even know how to reply to you because there isn't any substance in your post apart from name-calling and mudslinging.

No. That's not what happened.

According to AAMCAS, of the 2939 white applicants with a 3.4-3.59 and MCAT 27-29, 900 were accepted. (30%)

https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstable25-4.pdf

Of the 228 black applicants with the same stats, 185 were accepted. (81%)

https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/factstable25-2.pdf

So you're saying none of those 2039 white applicants who were rejected had significant life experiences to warrant acceptance, yet nearly 80% of black applicants did?

I'm saying that based on stats alone, we have no idea what other myriad factors, both personal and sociological, are factoring into adcoms' decisions.

 

[DasRacis]

No. That's not what happened.



I'm saying that based on stats alone, we have no idea what other myriad factors, both personal and sociological, are factoring into adcoms' decisions.

Ofcourse we don't. Which is why I posted what I did. It seems that you just ignored my argument. Answer my question yes or no:

Are you saying none of those 2039 white applicants who were rejected had significant life experiences to warrant acceptance, yet nearly 80% of black applicants did?

You'd have to answer yes if your argument is that African Americans are being accepted because of their life experiences and other intangible factors outside of race.

 

[Cotterpin]

Ofcourse we don't. Which is why I posted what I did. It seems that you just ignored my argument. Answer my question yes or no:

Are you saying none of those 2039 white applicants who were rejected had significant life experiences to warrant acceptance, yet nearly 80% of black applicants did?

You'd have to answer yes if your argument is that African Americans are being accepted because of their life experiences and other intangible factors outside of race.

What argument? You posted stats and then asked a question. My answer to that question is "I don't know, it's way too complicated to boil down to just a handful of stats."

 

[DasRacis]

What argument? You posted stats and then asked a question. My answer to that question is "I don't know, it's way too complicated to boil down to just a handful of stats."

We have all the stats straight from AAMC, therefore the only thing left that could make a difference in the admission rate is either life experiences or race.

I don't know if you are being willfully ignorant or you really don't understand this.

 

[Cotterpin]

We have all the stats straight from AAMC, therefore the only thing left that could make a difference in the admission rate is either life experiences or race.

No. It's more complicated than that.

 

[DasRacis]

No. It's more complicated than that.

Explain

 

[Cotterpin]

Explain

What, do you want me to write an essay? Take a sociology class. Think about intersectionality and how many factors come into play in med school admissions. Honestly, I don't know why I bothered to get involved in this thread. These things have been discussed to death and I'm sick of it.

 

[Noomm]

No. It's more complicated than that.

Again it's the "It's All Their Fault" argument. Asians just don't have enough life experience.

I bet even if the racism were even clearer than it already is now, and Asians needed 3.9+ GPAs and 98%ile MCATs to get into medical school, you would still be saying the same thing.

 

[Cotterpin]

Again it's the "It's All Their Fault" argument. Asians just don't have enough life experience.

I bet if Asians needed 3.9+ and 98%ile MCATs to get into medical school you would still be saying the same thing.

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat. I didn't say anything at all about Asians.

For the 90 bazillionth time: stats are not the only qualification. You are not entitled to a spot in med school because you have good grades.

 

[DasRacis]

What, do you want me to write an essay? Take a sociology class. Think about intersectionality and how many factors come into play in med school admissions. Honestly, I don't know why I bothered to get involved in this thread. These things have been discussed to death and I'm sick of it.

Well it's pretty clear that if you control for MCAT and GPA, the cause of the difference in acceptance rate must be due to these "other factors" you mention. All I'm asking you is if it's plausible that these other factors are so disparate between whites and african americans so as to cause an acceptance rate disparity of 50%.

 

[Cotterpin]

Well it's pretty clear that if you control for MCAT and GPA, the cause of the difference in acceptance rate must be due to these "other factors" you mention. All I'm asking you is if it's plausible that these other factors are so disparate between whites and african americans so as to cause an acceptance rate disparity of 50%.

You still won't admit the answer is yes to this question.

The answer is "I don't know because there are a lot of 'other factors,' Jesus Christ, get over it."

 

[DasRacis]

The answer is "I don't know because there are a lot of 'other factors,' Jesus Christ, get over it."

Like arguing with a wall.

 

[Cotterpin]

Like arguing with a wall.

That's exactly what I was thinking. I regret ever even clicking on another godforsaken URM thread.

 

[DasRacis]

That's exactly what I was thinking. I regret ever even clicking on another godforsaken URM thread.

I question whether people like you have simply bought into the whole politically correct narrative put out by the media or if you truly believe that affirmative action is a fair system.

 

[Cotterpin]

I question whether people like you have simply bought into the whole politically correct narrative put out by the media or if you truly believe that affirmative action is a fair system.

I'm walking away from this. Stop quoting me.

 

[DasRacis]

I'm walking away from this. Stop quoting me.

Introspection is hard.

 

[Cotterpin]

Introspection is hard.

Stooooooooooooooooop iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. I'm putting you on my ignore list now.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

Yes, I've noticed that claiming it's too hard for Asian people to get in is very seldom discussed. Well spotted OP

 

[DasRacis]

Stooooooooooooooooop iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit. I'm putting you on my ignore list now.

That's how we deal with our problems. Just ignore em and they go away 😉

 

[LuluLovesMe]

Yes, I've noticed that claiming it's too hard for Asian people to get in is very seldom discussed. Well spotted OP

The fact that non URM Asians are held to a higher standard than all other races never made sense to me.

 

[Cookie04]

It's not racism (I'm not going to define it for you because you can do that yourself), racism is based on the belief that a specific race is superior or inferior. Although racism and discrimination are often used synonymously, they are different things. But regardless of that, no one is saying that Asians or whites don't have as many life experiences as Blacks because that simply isn't true. I'm an African American woman who has had some pretty significant life experiences, but there are other Whites and Asians out there who have had it worse then me. But for the billionth time we've argued that race plays a huge factor in patient satisfaction and Blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans are historically known for being underrepresented in the medical community. Yes many people don't agree with adcoms accepting minorities with lower stats to help lessen health disparities and bridge the gap, but who cares because adcoms agree with it and do it for a reason. Is it fair to whites and Asians? Probably not, but life isn't fair. I don't understand why we just can't accept that these URM threads on SDN are unproductive and just create more divide, bitterness, and racial tension.

And on a side note, Whites and Asians aren't held to a higher standard because they are perceived to be smarter (or whatever other reasons why people think that they should have better stats) but because there are so many Whites and Asians applying. The more people that apply, the more competitive it is and the harder you have to work. That's just how life is. If 20,000 African Americans start to apply to Med school too believe me it will be harder for Blacks with lower stats to get accepted because the avg GPA and MCAT of African American applicants will most likely rise due to increased competition. So, Let's flip the script. If there were only 7,000 Asians applying to med school compared to 20,000 African Americans, then Asians would not only be considered URM but they would most likely get accepted with lesser stats too.

 

[Mad Jack]

Ofcourse we don't. Which is why I posted what I did. It seems that you just ignored my argument. Answer my question yes or no:

Are you saying none of those 2039 white applicants who were rejected had significant life experiences to warrant acceptance, yet nearly 80% of black applicants did?

You'd have to answer yes if your argument is that African Americans are being accepted because of their life experiences and other intangible factors outside of race.

Their life experience includes being relatively successful in a country that is loaded with barriers to cut black applicants down and hold them back, so yes, their life experience is substantially different than that of white applicants by default. There is some evidence, for instance, that if you have a black student with a white-sounding name and a black student with a black-sounding name from the same family, academically, the one with the white sounding name will have better performance by a small but statistically significant degree. There was another study done that showed those with black-sounding names that had the exact same resume as those with white-sounding names sent to the same enployers would receive FAR fewer callbacks. And that's just when you see a person's name-imagine the degree of subconsciously maligned treatment they must receive when they're actually physically present. Race and racial stereotypes are an inescapable reality for black Americans, not something they can simply ignore our pretend doesn't exist. It thus gives them a substantially different experience than a white applicant, even if they are of the same SES.

 

[Crayola227]

As an ORM, I discovered that my race wouldn't HELP me get into med school. That's different than it holding you back.

ORMs, unite for a pat on the back!

Congrats to whatever cultural identity may have contributed to our success in overcoming societal barriers to the point of being over-represented in medicine. Perhaps while still an URM adcoms made special allowances to admit us with slightly lower stats. Then, at some point, I suspect that once we had reached the status of ORM, our stats had to then equal or even exceed that of more traditional applicants.

I am pleased that whatever complex mix of AA, social engineering, tolerance, adcom initiative, and certainly some unique adaptations that come from the challenges of being a minority, and some from a unique cultural heritage, has contributed to a more diverse physician workforce.

The fact that there are minorities that are ORM in competitive and professional fields is great. It may be time to branch out to other fields.

Hopefully ALL of us, white, ORM, URM, can support the continued effort and pay it forward to people who are still disadvantaged from birth to be the first in their family to get a post-graduate education.

 

[LuluLovesMe]

As an ORM, I discovered that my race wouldn't HELP me get into med school. That's different than it holding you back.

ORMs, unite for a pat on the back!

Congrats to whatever cultural identity may have contributed to our success in overcoming societal barriers to the point of being over-represented in medicine. Perhaps while still an URM adcoms made special allowances to admit us with slightly lower stats. Then, at some point, I suspect that once we had reached the status of ORM, our stats had to then equal or even exceed that of more traditional applicants.

I am pleased that whatever complex mix of AA, social engineering, tolerance, adcom initiative, and certainly some unique adaptations that come from the challenges of being a minority, and some from a unique cultural heritage, has contributed to a more diverse physician workforce.

The fact that there are minorities that are ORM in competitive and professional fields is great. It may be time to branch out to other fields.

Hopefully ALL of us, white, ORM, URM, can support the continued effort and pay it forward to people who are still disadvantaged from birth to be the first in their family to get a post-graduate education.

So in the United States of America are whites disadvantaged compared to asians? Based on your logic, that's what the acceptance statistics indicate.