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[stevvo111]

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M.D. Ph.d students help a prospect out. So I recently, as many others who post in this exact forum, decided to combine my love of clinical care (can't really say this without having done an incredible amount of it, but I can safely say, I would enjoy doing this everyday for the rest of my life) with academia/basic science research (something I know and have enjoyed). I've been browsing other threads with essentially the same questions, but I didn't want to hijack it and start asking tangential and specific questions, so I figured I'd make a new post.


I was jumping between the two and avoiding this MSTP thing because of the whole "you'll have grey hair when you're done" idea professors and doctors pounded into my brain whenever brought up. But I finally realized that I really don't care what age I am when I come out, I know this combo will fit me perfectly (again, can't say for sure without having seen, heard about, discussed, etc. , but I can say, I don't give a f' how old I am when I am finished with all of my training) But I figured I'd ask, how hard is it to get into one of these things? I've heard people saying it's easier than straight up med school cause very few want to put themselves through such a tough life, but I've also heard you need baller status GPA/MCAT with research experience, and publications out the bunghole.

Reason I'm worried is, well, I'm a 3rd year student with a fairly doo doo quality GPA (3.58 and somewhere similar science). I'm planning on murdering the MCATs(can I say that? I can say I'm excited to study for them though, which I guess very few can say as well). But I have pretty baller status everything else (In my eyes it's baller status, but I know this is pretty much the norm). I've done 3 years of undergrad research. And no, it's not bs research where the PI gives me 3 experiments, tells me how to do them, I do them, get published. It was/is hard. I was given a project and basically set free to do it. I had protocols on hand, and the professor got my feet wet with a bunch of things, but I was essentially treated as a grad student/post doc and was expected to produce the same caliber research and data. I know confocal microscopy, sectioning, TEM, SEM(is that the acronym?), and a nut load of other things. But to that, I have no pubs. I am afraid all the hard work and passion I have for research won't show considering I have no publications to show for it (as opposed to the one semester "research assistants" who get published within minutes of joining the lab). Anyways, I do a lot of volunteering (not mindless volunteering either, I can actually say I enjoy and learn from each of my volunteering endeavors, know how to write grants, approaching patients, playing with kids, fundraising, etc.). I got a huge grant (reason I say it's huge is cause it was $30,000+) to do a public health project with a group of students last summer, and I guess it's impressive (the amount I learned about global public health from that experience was incredible, and I could talk about that for hours!). Unfortunately the nature of the field research provided nothing but a measly undergrad research publication (we have another manuscript done and ready for review, but my group is so lazy they don't want to edit/change the manuscript, so it is essentially laying there waiting. I might send it out next semester after the MCATs). So I guess I have semi good things going for me, but I'm worried it's my GPA that will end up butt f'ing me in the end. Should I just switch back to MD if it is indeed more possible to get in instead of MSTP [research is possible with just an MD, I know, but I want to impact other students and even teach them as my PI has done with me and other undergrads, plus getting recognized(you know what I mean, I'm not trying to be famous, but it's motivating and gratifying to be recognized, whether that means winning a grant, getting published, or getting any awards) for achievements isn't bad either]? And I have a lot of excellent sources of recommendations (at least I think/hope I do).

Reason I ask is because I need to know whether I am fooling myself into thinking I have any shot in hell of getting into a MSTP or MD/Ph.D program in general. Cause if it is indeed more difficult to get into,, and if pursuing it will kill all of my dreams and aspirations, then I will destroy any thought of this and focus on simply getting into med school. Then when I'm in I will see what research opportunities are available, and if there is any possibility of doing something similar to an MD/Ph.D.

Any and every kind of advice would be helpful. I plan on taking a year or even two off to do something, potentially research based (maybe even publish by then?), or clinical (cause I haven't done anything in terms of significant shadowing- like an hour or two here and there. But I do plan to do a evening shift with an ER cardiologist- should be fun).

Anything that would give me a better sense of your lifestyle, lives first and second year in med school, how social you can be, etc. would also help. Reason I ask about first two years is because STEP 1's are after I think, and according to friends/brother who are in med school, they tell me that it is a pretty important thing, and if you don't have a lifestyle that provides you ample time to study, then you will fail to obtain a decent STEP 1 necessary for residency later on in life.

 

[Neuronix]

how hard is it to get into one of these things?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=539268

Your professors are wrong btw. My hair is going to be all gone by the time it turns gray.

Any and every kind of advice would be helpful. I plan on taking a year or even two off to do something, potentially research based (maybe even publish by then?), or clinical (cause I haven't done anything in terms of significant shadowing- like an hour or two here and there. But I do plan to do a evening shift with an ER cardiologist- should be fun).

Anything that would give me a better sense of your lifestyle, lives first and second year in med school, how social you can be, etc. would also help.

1) Focus on research and MCAT scores. You should do some shadowing, but not focusing on doing anything clinical full-time.

2) Your lifestyle or curriculum as a first or second year med student is irrelevant to the long-term.

 

[stevvo111]

Thanks, I read your blog (cool stuff, I enjoyed the linked article about choosing your PI wisely and the importance of training. I get really frustrated cause I feel like I haven't gotten anywhere in terms of forwarding my project, but my PI always reminds me it's the experience, training, and techniques you learn, not necessarily what you find, at least for undergrads) and the recommended readings. I guess I should have read the sticky prior to posting (it turned out to be a "chances" thread rather than a "help me" one- these essentially mean the same thing).

In terms of your MSTP lifestyle, how manageable is it? I read you should expect about 60-80 hrs in the lab a week. And I think you said with all things considered you get about 2 hours to yourself a week. But what about family emergencies, having kids, getting married type things. What do you do when these life events happen? I can't imagine putting off research (I can often be found in the lab late and early morning running experiments, gels, etc. Last year I even skipped lunch and dinners because I was so stuck to my research- something I will never do again cause I eventually learned this was killing my brain). But I can't imagine neglecting important life events either.

 

[Chicharita]

MSTP lifestyle is what you make of it. If you want to work 80h/week in the lab you can. If you want to work less you can. It all depends on your project, luck and how you work. Putting in a lot of hours doesn't equate to success. I put plenty of hours into the lab during holidays etc... and wasn't fully present bc I was thinking about the other things I could have been doing. In all my years in the lab nothing worked during the winter holidays 🙂 Furthermore, I got married during my PhD years, and I had a child as a 3rd year med student. it is all doable, not easy, but doable. If you put off life for your career, you'll realize that you have a career but probably not much of a life.

 

[Neuronix]

my PI always reminds me it's the experience, training, and techniques you learn, not necessarily what you find, at least for undergrads) and the recommended readings. I guess I should have read the sticky prior to posting (it turned out to be a "chances" thread rather than a "help me" one- these essentially mean the same thing).

No problem. I think your undergrad PI has the right mindset. I think even in grad school it should be more about learning than productivity, though you need to publish at least something.

In terms of your MSTP lifestyle, how manageable is it? I read you should expect about 60-80 hrs in the lab a week. And I think you said with all things considered you get about 2 hours to yourself a week. But what about family emergencies, having kids, getting married type things. What do you do when these life events happen? I can't imagine putting off research (I can often be found in the lab late and early morning running experiments, gels, etc. Last year I even skipped lunch and dinners because I was so stuck to my research- something I will never do again cause I eventually learned this was killing my brain). But I can't imagine neglecting important life events either.

Sorry I missed your question here. I said about 2 hours to yourself a day, which is a lot better than 2 hours a week . I don't have a family, nor have I gotten married or had kids. I used to want these things, but then I had my heart smashed to pieces a few times during my training, and have not been particularly interested any more.

For me, I find my enjoyment in outdoor adventure sports. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to match to an area that really has outdoor adventure sports, so I will just have to make do with what I have. During the MSTP I burnt out rather badly and had a number of bad experiences, so during that time I had to make a compromise with myself to have some level of happiness in my life. That compromise was simply: have good months and bad months. Inpatient medicine rotations are going to be terrible months. Chill electives are good months. Much of fourth year was a vacation when I wasn't interviewing. I took a break between PhD and the return to medical school, in part because I simply had no other choice except stay in lab another 10 months, and that helped me remember that there's a life outside the hospital. If you wanted to have a kids/family earlier, you could have taken the times I took there to devote to that sort of thing. That said, you have to expect bad times where it's going to be very difficult to be with them and respond to emergencies. As I've talked about before, it's almost required to either have a partner who has a much more stable lifestyle with part-time or no employment, a partner (or supportive family) with a lot of money who will take care of you and your children during training, or a family in the immediate area who will take care of your offspring for you often. If you're a resident in a rural or low cost area, you can make it with a small family on just your income and a non or minimally working partner, but I think it would be pretty tough.

I knew that I didn't want to get beat to crap as a resident, because I know I could easily go back to burn-out land. So I have good months and bad months here too. Some rotations are easier than others. This is a bad month, with an abstract deadline, a paper that needs to go out, and I'm working over 60 hours a week. But it's just this month... Nevertheless, I picked a rather cush residency and transitional year for a reason. That's a personal choice. At my categorical program, one of the residents was just out on two weeks of PAternity leave, and it's not infrequent for the woman residents to have children. It's not a problem at all for them to get the vacation and support they need just about whenever they need it. But in my experience, that's a small percentage of residency programs, and you have to choose what's important to you.

Now as faculty I really don't know. I imagine the experience is highly variable depending on exactly the type of position you end up taking.

 

[Fencer]

When I was a grad student, we had our two kids... It was very hard but my wife and I pulled it our together. Been a clinician scientist is the only job I can see myself doing. As some of you know, I have a great family, lifestyle, and job. It was very hard but you need a supportive partner/spouse. As a clinician scientist, you will be able to live very well and have greater job security than PhDs. Furthermore, you might be one of the lucky of us who is able to bridge the Bench-Bedside gap, back and forth, and influence the research and clinical care in the condition.

When you have numbers and you are ready to apply, PM me for advice.

 

[stevvo111]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I talked to my PI about it, and she was very supportive. Although, she did make an interesting point that I had not considered before. She indicated that many of the MD/Ph.D's have a very uneven split, even the best of them. Many of the times this split is 90% lab 10% clinical, or the other way around. She said the time it would take to get both is way too long and demoralizing if in the end you simply end up choosing one or the other 90% of the time. She did mention exceptions of rare doctors who were able to balance things out 50% 50%(or close, I'm sure it's pretty impossible to have this split). But I can see how she might advise getting just an MD (if interested in doing clinical more than research), spending time post MD to do research to get that experience, and then do residency where it is possible to still do research on the side.

But today I had the opportunity to speak with a current MD/Ph.D student who spoke about the security of an MD/Ph.D rather than just a Ph.D. He told me not to pursue any Ph.D if I didn't like it more than just a side thing to do (which I clearly do, it's fun for me). He indicated how an MD/Ph.D provides him the opportunity to do basic science research. While he will put in all he has (90% 10%), he did say even the best Ph.D's fail, and so it was nice to know he always had the opportunity to go back to clinical work full time or until he had another opportunity to do basic science research.

Something my PI told me today really struck me as extremely profound. She said how although you have a lot of opportunities and career routes, you really just need to convince yourself to do something. That something you choose is based on what you want because it is what you want and not what someone expects of you, not what you think will look good, and not what makes you look better in others minds. And whenever you choose this path, you give it your best and commit to it fully. If you have a backup plan ( of which I had many, ranging from doing consulting, getting my MBA, etc, to doing public health work around the world), it shows you are not committed fully to your career aspirations. I thought about this, and I certainly do need to put more thought into this, but as of now, I choose MD/Ph.D (whether this is possible or not). I don't care how long it takes, I don't care what people think of me, I don't care what I lifestyle I live (as long as I have a life, I will be happy), and I don't care if I fail (I hope I won't due to my commitment, but there is always a possibility). I just want to learn the skills of thinking like a scientist, while learning the intricacies and complexities of the human body/psyche.

I'm so thankful for this and all the other advice. I know MD/Ph.D is something I want to do, and I'd like to think I would pursue this to the fullest extent, provided that I got in to a program (any program, it doesn't even have to be MSTP, as long as it gives me the training I need, I will be satisfied).

Let me know if you guys have any feedback, I would very much appreciate it.

I am planning on speaking with a neuro-surgeon who also does biomedical research, and so I will bring up these important questions to see his personal view and whether he would do it all over again given his split (I heard 90% clinic 10% lab- which is very successful btw, I dunno how)

Thanks fencer, I will let you know when I am ready to apply. Till then I will work on my GPA, MCAT, and research. I have temporarily put volunteering on hold because I do think that might have been keeping me from getting the grades I wanted all along (3 volunteering positions, research lab, classes, and a social life does not work well all together).