Questions to MD/PhDs getting matched into Ophthalmology

[Drink Water]

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What are the useful fields of PhD that a MD/PhD student with a strong interest in ophthalmology can do? I am considering doing my PhD in the field of epi-biostat, which is away from the traditional wet science PhDs as in molecular bio, genetics, pathology, etc.

Right now, I am looking for some viable options in which I can strengthen the corelation between ophthalmology and epi-bio. Are there any resources (ie. articles, websites, conferences, any SDN posts, names of any or several ophthalmologists with a great interest in epidemiology, etc.) I can take a look? Could the experienced ophthalmologists out there give me some perspectives on the epidemiology of vision health at present and in the future? Epidemiology and Ophthalmology -- do they not go together at all?

How do MD/PhD students with an early interest in ophthalmology shape their PhD research? I have seen folks who do research outside ophthalmology or no research at all and still get matched into ophthalmology, but if possible, I'd like to get an early exposure to ophthalmology research through my PhD portion, given that I won't see much during my short ophtho rotation.

 

[Visionary]

What are the useful fields of PhD that a MD/PhD student with a strong interest in ophthalmology can do? I am considering doing my PhD in the field of epi-biostat, which is away from the traditional wet science PhDs as in molecular bio, genetics, pathology, etc.

Right now, I am looking for some viable options in which I can strengthen the corelation between ophthalmology and epi-bio. Are there any resources (ie. articles, websites, conferences, any SDN posts, names of any or several ophthalmologists with a great interest in epidemiology, etc.) I can take a look? Could the experienced ophthalmologists out there give me some perspectives on the epidemiology of vision health at present and in the future? Epidemiology and Ophthalmology -- do they not go together at all?

How do MD/PhD students with an early interest in ophthalmology shape their PhD research? I have seen folks who do research outside ophthalmology or no research at all and still get matched into ophthalmology, but if possible, I'd like to get an early exposure to ophthalmology research through my PhD portion, given that I won't see much during my short ophtho rotation.

I think that would be a good choice, but only if you're really interested in it. Please don't do a PhD just to strengthen your CV (there are other, easier ways to do that). An epidemiology and biostatistics background would be helpful in any field of medicine, particularly if you plan to pursue academics. With doctoral training in that, rather than bench work, you likely won't pigeon hole yourself as much, in case you decide on something other than ophthalmology. Your particular line(s) of research won't matter as much. Of course, you should still go after ophthalmology research, if that's your interest.

My PhD is in perception and sensory physiology with a strong focus on parallel visual processing, so doing something other than ophthalmology would have been a stretch, though not impossible. Fortunately, that's exactly what I wanted to do, and I was able to do it!

 

[Drink Water]

Visionary,

Thanks for your input. I like research and probably do like doing PhD more than doing MD. I really like the aspect of spending some time on a research topic of my interest and having something neatly written (although the process is not always as neat as I hoped) in the form of publications. I want the field of my PhD research to be something that is widely applicable to various clinical settings. Then, I really want to relate it to the field of ophthalmology as it has been my interest for some time. Despite my preference for research, I knew that doing just the research could bore my life and concluded that doing research and working as a clinician would be a good mix.

The conflicting part of the story that I have after doing my own research and talking to people is this: I talked to some folks in the field of ophthalmology. I have also read articles written by residency directors/application readers/interviewers, etc. They all encourage applicants to develop an early interest and expect them to have some sort of long-term commitment in the chosen field. Yet, in reality, this is not so easy thing to do as M1 and M2 years are pretty much dictated by exam schedules. Perhaps, one could shadow or find a mentor in the field of ophthalmology, but the absolute priorities for the first two years of med school seem to be the learning aspect: grades, scores, a bit of extracurricular (summer research, shadowing, etc.), and most importantly, keeping my dream of becoming of an ophthalmologist intact (not to be discouraged by comments such as, "Oh, you want to make money." *sigh*)

Thanks for reading! I welcome more advice in this thread.

 

[bonsaitree1]

Visionary,

Thanks for your input. I like research and probably do like doing PhD more than doing MD. I really like the aspect of spending some time on a research topic of my interest and having something neatly written (although the process is not always as neat as I hoped) in the form of publications. I want the field of my PhD research to be something that is widely applicable to various clinical settings. Then, I really want to relate it to the field of ophthalmology as it has been my interest for some time. Despite my preference for research, I knew that doing just the research could bore my life and concluded that doing research and working as a clinician would be a good mix.

The conflicting part of the story that I have after doing my own research and talking to people is this: I talked to some folks in the field of ophthalmology. I have also read articles written by residency directors/application readers/interviewers, etc. They all encourage applicants to develop an early interest and expect them to have some sort of long-term commitment in the chosen field. Yet, in reality, this is not so easy thing to do as M1 and M2 years are pretty much dictated by exam schedules. Perhaps, one could shadow or find a mentor in the field of ophthalmology, but the absolute priorities for the first two years of med school seem to be the learning aspect: grades, scores, a bit of extracurricular (summer research, shadowing, etc.), and most importantly, keeping my dream of becoming of an ophthalmologist intact (not to be discouraged by comments such as, "Oh, you want to make money." *sigh*)

Thanks for reading! I welcome more advice in this thread.

Could you link us to some of the articles from directors/interviewers?

 

[linevasel]

To the OP, Penn actually has a center for Ophthalmology and Biostatistics .
Check out John. H. Kempen.

Wilmer has a number of ophthalmologist who receive training in epidemiology at their school of public health (Bloomberg - the Deam Emeritus, Sommer was an ophthalmologist)
Don't know the number of MDs with Phd formal degrees in epidemiology, but I do think there is an appreciation for the rigor and utility of the discipline. At the NIH, a number of main investigators have extensive training in epi (by way of public health or experience) Nussenblatt, Emily Chew, etc.

I only know this stuff, because once I was a young and fresh idealist like you...

 

[Visionary]

Visionary,

Thanks for your input. I like research and probably do like doing PhD more than doing MD. I really like the aspect of spending some time on a research topic of my interest and having something neatly written (although the process is not always as neat as I hoped) in the form of publications. I want the field of my PhD research to be something that is widely applicable to various clinical settings. Then, I really want to relate it to the field of ophthalmology as it has been my interest for some time. Despite my preference for research, I knew that doing just the research could bore my life and concluded that doing research and working as a clinician would be a good mix.

The conflicting part of the story that I have after doing my own research and talking to people is this: I talked to some folks in the field of ophthalmology. I have also read articles written by residency directors/application readers/interviewers, etc. They all encourage applicants to develop an early interest and expect them to have some sort of long-term commitment in the chosen field. Yet, in reality, this is not so easy thing to do as M1 and M2 years are pretty much dictated by exam schedules. Perhaps, one could shadow or find a mentor in the field of ophthalmology, but the absolute priorities for the first two years of med school seem to be the learning aspect: grades, scores, a bit of extracurricular (summer research, shadowing, etc.), and most importantly, keeping my dream of becoming of an ophthalmologist intact (not to be discouraged by comments such as, "Oh, you want to make money." *sigh*)

Thanks for reading! I welcome more advice in this thread.

Bold is mine.

Regarding the first point, I think you're making a good choice with epidemiology and biostatistics.

Regarding the second point, I felt the same way. I actually didn't decide on medicine until I was 2 years into my PhD training. I just couldn't see myself as a career researcher/teacher. Now, I have the best of both worlds. I'm a private practitioner with a gratis faculty position. I still do some clinically-based research and teaching through the university.

Regarding your third point, you're absolutely correct. It is very difficult to do any significant research, while in medical school. Even with my PhD training and access to my old mentor, the best I could do was a summer project between M1 and M2. There's just too much else on your plate. A combined MD/PhD will afford you more dedicated research time.

 

[Drink Water]

Could you link us to some of the articles from directors/interviewers?

Reflex,

I have come across many articles in different medium (magazine, books, websites, etc.) at different times in the past few years, so I can't put them all on one page here, but you could suppose to find articles on these residency topics very easily just by simple googling, which is how I usually start. I can quickly show you this one on the SDN website a while ago. This is not a bad one to start with. (It's actually a pretty well-written article).

http://www.studentdoctor.net/2009/0...h-interview-with-dr-andrew-lee-ophthalmology/

 

[Drink Water]

To the OP, Penn actually has a center for Ophthalmology and Biostatistics .
Check out John. H. Kempen.

Wilmer has a number of ophthalmologist who receive training in epidemiology at their school of public health (Bloomberg - the Deam Emeritus, Sommer was an ophthalmologist)
Don't know the number of MDs with Phd formal degrees in epidemiology, but I do think there is an appreciation for the rigor and utility of the discipline. At the NIH, a number of main investigators have extensive training in epi (by way of public health or experience) Nussenblatt, Emily Chew, etc.

I only know this stuff, because once I was a young and fresh idealist like you...

linevasel,

Thanks for the info. I knew some strong stuff going on Johns Hopkins, but your info about UPenn was something totally new to me. Wow.... I am checking out lots of stuff upon reading your post! The proximity of Hopkins to NEI and NIH is something to note, I guess.

 

[snowbank]

Good thread. I've been guilty of not keeping up with the posts on this forum recently...but this is as good a one to start again....

Disclaimer:
I don't have a PhD, but have done clinical research.
Leaving the Dr. designation out of names for simplicity, and do not intend disrespect.

The first 2 I thought of are already mentioned by linevasel (Kempen and Alfred Sommer). Kempen has an MPH MHS and PhD all in biostats (dont know what an MHS is - anyone else care to enlighten us?)
Another person he trained with in Wilmer under Jabs is Jen Thorne - similar background to his. Look her up.

Also Wilmer has a Dana center of preventive ophthalmology (link hidden deep in the website) I think headed by Sommer. offer fellowships every 1-2 years I believe.

and about ophth and epi - loads of opportunity there in developing countries, Africa, there is a field called community and preventive ophth (think trichiasis river blindness etc). London school of tropical medicine and hygiene has a degree in this.

that's all I can think of for now...

PS And line - what did you mean by "because once I was a young and fresh idealist like you..."?

 

[Drink Water]

Good thread. I've been guilty of not keeping up with the posts on this forum recently...but this is as good a one to start again....

Disclaimer:
I don't have a PhD, but have done clinical research.
Leaving the Dr. designation out of names for simplicity, and do not intend disrespect.

The first 2 I thought of are already mentioned by linevasel (Kempen and Alfred Sommer). Kempen has an MPH MHS and PhD all in biostats (dont know what an MHS is - anyone else care to enlighten us?)
Another person he trained with in Wilmer under Jabs is Jen Thorne - similar background to his. Look her up.

Also Wilmer has a Dana center of preventive ophthalmology (link hidden deep in the website) I think headed by Sommer. offer fellowships every 1-2 years I believe.

and about ophth and epi - loads of opportunity there in developing countries, Africa, there is a field called community and preventive ophth (think trichiasis river blindness etc). London school of tropical medicine and hygiene has a degree in this.

that's all I can think of for now...

PS And line - what did you mean by "because once I was a young and fresh idealist like you..."?

Snowbank,

MHS generally means "Masters in Health Services". It is a master program like master in public health (MPH) with a focus on different areas of health services like administration, management, a particular field of research with a specific focus (i.e. healthcare data analysis & management, providing patient-centered care, etc.) in the field of healthcare, etc.

Lots of helpful info. Yeah, I could see how LSH & TM (a.k.a. London School of Health and Tropical Medicine) would develop relevant programs in different areas of Africa. Thanks for the great info!

I am glad to hear many good connections I could possibly draw between epidemiology and ophthalmology. I was curious with linevasel's last line about being a young and fresh idealist.

linevasel -- feel free to PM me about what you meant. I have several physicians in training in my family, so I may have heard them all, but I don't mind hearing them again just for my reality check.

 

[Drink Water]

*Please do not move this thread to another forum. I'd like to hear some perspecives from folks in the field of ophthalmology or people who are seriously considering this specialty as I am very serious about going into it. Thank you.*

So, I got some reactions from my colleagues today. I am already in a PhD program and am adding a MD soon. I said,

"So, on my MD-PhD application, if I say that I have done X, Y and Z and these X, Y and Z have convinced me to become an ophthalmologist......"

My colleagues bulked at me even before I finished my sentence.

"No, you're going to be a dedicated primary care physician first. No one is going to like you if you say that you are going to be an ophthalmologist in your personal statement."

Well, but, going into ophthalmology -- that's what I want to do, and things I have done in the past logically show that I am going into the relevant field to what I've done. Wait, but then, if I am too honest, I will look too naive and thoughtless? I concluded that it'd be best not to mention what type of specialty I'd go into. I'd rather mention kinds of personality I want to maintain as a caring physician (Yes, I know, I sound very naive here). My PhD research interest is vision research in the field of epidemiology, and people in my PhD department already know this. So, I can't completely deny the possibility of going into ophthalmology, once I am asked about it. Till then, I guess I should stay silent? It's interesting to re-think my friend's reaction from various perspectives. Any thoughts out there?

 

[jsh1986]

I told everyone in my interviews and put on paper in secondaries that I wanted to go into ophtho. I never encountered a problem. Depending on where you apply (and how strong an applicant you are) people generally won't care what you want to do, as long as you have passion and it "makes sense." I had a lot of ophtho experiences as an undergrad, so it made sense. If you have done burn research, makes sense to go into plastics. If you have worked, really worked, in underserved commnities, then you can say "primary care." It just has to make sense....don't worry about it and go for it!

*Please do not move this thread to another forum. I'd like to hear some perspecives from folks in the field of ophthalmology or people who are seriously considering this specialty as I am very serious about going into it. Thank you.*

So, I got some reactions from my colleagues today. I am already in a PhD program and am adding a MD soon. I said,

"So, on my MD-PhD application, if I say that I have done X, Y and Z and these X, Y and Z have convinced me to become an ophthalmologist......"

My colleagues bulked at me even before I finished my sentence.

"No, you're going to be a dedicated primary care physician first. No one is going to like you if you say that you are going to be an ophthalmologist in your personal statement."

Well, but, going into ophthalmology -- that's what I want to do, and things I have done in the past logically show that I am going into the relevant field to what I've done. Wait, but then, if I am too honest, I will look too naive and thoughtless? I concluded that it'd be best not to mention what type of specialty I'd go into. I'd rather mention kinds of personality I want to maintain as a caring physician (Yes, I know, I sound very naive here). My PhD research interest is vision research in the field of epidemiology, and people in my PhD department already know this. So, I can't completely deny the possibility of going into ophthalmology, once I am asked about it. Till then, I guess I should stay silent? It's interesting to re-think my friend's reaction from various perspectives. Any thoughts out there?

 

[Visionary]

DW, I went the same route as jsh1986. Did it hurt my application? I have absolutely no idea. I'll say this, though. Having completed my PhD prior to med school, it would have seemed rather odd to not fashion my personal statement/interview responses toward what would have appeared to anyone as an obvious goal of pursuing ophthalmology. As I stated before, my research involved parallel visual processing. I would argue that presenting myself as a primary care candidate or even just deflecting the attention away from my research focus would have framed me as either disingenuous or indecisive. I suspect that relatively few med school applicants have a strong idea of what they plan to pursue, let alone a foundation to back it up. Even the schools that have as their goal to produce primary care physicians know that many will become specialists. As long as you're a good overall candidate, I think you'll be fine.