Quitting the program...

[sdnetrocks]

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This may be long...

So basically, I'm in the MS2 year of a top-ten MSTP program, and I've found myself increasingly thinking about quitting the program and going for MD-only. Part of it has to do with a lack of a true interest in research, as I think of it. In other words, while I don't necessarily despise being in lab or doing experiments (in fact, it's probably one of the nicer summer jobs I might have), I don't believe that I am particularly talented in actually planning the research, nor do I actually care about whatever little molecules I happen to be studying at the moment. As I look back on my decision to pursue the combined program, I now realize that a large reason for wanting the PhD was so that I could be involved in teaching. Being surrounded by PhD prof's as an undergraduate, I guess I got the wrong idea that a PhD would be required if I wanted to be faculty. Going through medical school has shown me that I was clearly mistaken.

But going back to research for a moment, I guess the key is that I am just not passionately interested in basic science research. I would go as far as saying that I am disinterested in it (though I do realize its importance, and so I bow-down to all you guys who are still into it). If anything, medical school has made me less interested in basic science research, and possibly somewhat interested in clinical research (though I am not sure that I would pursue it at the first opportunity).

The worst thing is that dropping out of the MSTP seems to be a TOTALLY taboo topic - in part, because if (on the off chance) I eventually decide to stay, I'll look like a fool. The inability to discuss this with my MSTP classmates or MSTP administrators is really keeping me from making an informed decision. For example, I have no idea how quitting the MSTP will affect my dean's letter, my competitiveness for residencies in general, my competitiveness for the more competitive residencies in the more research-based centers, my eligibility for student loans (I'm estimating I'll need ~$100k to cover MS3-4), etc.

And there doesn't seem to be much discussion about this on here either. I remember hearing that the national MSTP drop-out rate is somewhere from 25% - 50%, so there's gotta be others out there like me.

I'd appreciate any advice or any thoughts you all might have on these topics.

 

[xanthines]

Be forewarned that I know nothing...

..., but have tried other areas of research? Epidemiology? Engineering/Medical Physics? Maybe you just haven't found the right area. Just my opinion.

-X

This may be long...

So basically, I'm in the MS2 year of a top-ten MSTP program, and I've found myself increasingly thinking about quitting the program and going for MD-only. Part of it has to do with a lack of a true interest in research, as I think of it. In other words, while I don't necessarily despise being in lab or doing experiments (in fact, it's probably one of the nicer summer jobs I might have), I don't believe that I am particularly talented in actually planning the research, nor do I actually care about whatever little molecules I happen to be studying at the moment. As I look back on my decision to pursue the combined program, I now realize that a large reason for wanting the PhD was so that I could be involved in teaching. Being surrounded by PhD prof's as an undergraduate, I guess I got the wrong idea that a PhD would be required if I wanted to be faculty. Going through medical school has shown me that I was clearly mistaken.

But going back to research for a moment, I guess the key is that I am just not passionately interested in basic science research. I would go as far as saying that I am disinterested in it (though I do realize its importance, and so I bow-down to all you guys who are still into it). If anything, medical school has made me less interested in basic science research, and possibly somewhat interested in clinical research (though I am not sure that I would pursue it at the first opportunity).

The worst thing is that dropping out of the MSTP seems to be a TOTALLY taboo topic - in part, because if (on the off chance) I eventually decide to stay, I'll look like a fool. The inability to discuss this with my MSTP classmates or MSTP administrators is really keeping me from making an informed decision. For example, I have no idea how quitting the MSTP will affect my dean's letter, my competitiveness for residencies in general, my competitiveness for the more competitive residencies in the more research-based centers, my eligibility for student loans (I'm estimating I'll need ~$100k to cover MS3-4), etc.

And there doesn't seem to be much discussion about this on here either. I remember hearing that the national MSTP drop-out rate is somewhere from 25% - 50%, so there's gotta be others out there like me.

I'd appreciate any advice or any thoughts you all might have on these topics.

 

[BDavis]

The worst thing is that dropping out of the MSTP seems to be a TOTALLY taboo topic - in part, because if (on the off chance) I eventually decide to stay, I'll look like a fool. The inability to discuss this with my MSTP classmates or MSTP administrators is really keeping me from making an informed decision. For example, I have no idea how quitting the MSTP will affect my dean's letter, my competitiveness for residencies in general, my competitiveness for the more competitive residencies in the more research-based centers, my eligibility for student loans (I'm estimating I'll need ~$100k to cover MS3-4), etc.

And there doesn't seem to be much discussion about this on here either. I remember hearing that the national MSTP drop-out rate is somewhere from 25% - 50%, so there's gotta be others out there like me.

I understand your position because most MSTP students during their training at least think about leaving the MD/PhD program because of its rigors and length of training. Half of my class quit and none of them had any regrets. The remaining members of the class have no resentments towards our classmates that left and we support (I married one of them!). Here are some observations I have made during my training (I am almost finished with the Ph.D. and ready to go finish the M.D.)

1) Everyone hits a wall during research (this is when all your experiments don't work, you feel like your project is a big artifact, your project is not interesting anymore and you hate your mentor because all they do is sit in their office); you need to decide if you need to switch labs or if you haven't started graduate school talk to some of the MD faculty who are doing research to get an idea of what kind of training they had to go through to land a faculty position.

2) Do not be afraid of the backlash of leaving, out of all the residencies that my classmates n=6 (that left the MSTP) interviewed at, only 1 faculty member during a Hopkins interview made a negative remark. All the other programs did not care and were more interested in if these students still planned to pursue research (some faculty even commented that spending 6-7 years for Ph.D. is too much). You may be questioned about the level of committment to a residency (some may feel if you quit the MSTP, then you may also do the same when things get tough), but you should fire back saying that you finished the MD and did not leave the program outright. Your transcript may indicate that you had a leave of absence which is explained by the Dean's letter.

3) I don't know what program you are at, but if it is a NIH funded MSTP, you should not have to pay any money back for the first two years. When I was single I qualified for the full amount of subsidized loans (salary ~ 20K) and an additional 10K of unsubsidized loans. You will be responsible for the remainder of your training with which you can take out up to $8500 in subsidized Stafford loans (T.H.E. has no origination fees) and up to 10K for unsubsidized loans (I think). There may be also private loans you can take. Most likely, you will get these loans deferred (forbearance) during your residency (interest accrues, but you don't have to make payments).

4) I talked to my program director about quitting during my second year in graduate school, but instead I switched labs and I was a lot happier so I was glad I did not. You should be candid with your program director and they will be supportive of your decision if you rationalize why you want to leave.

5) If you do choose to leave, try to time it so you can graduate in a timely manner (there are good times to sync up with the medical school and there are bad times). Keep in mind once the deed is done, it is very hard if not impossible to return to the program.

Bottom line: don't stay in the program because you feel you are a failure or you think your classmates/program director will hate you. You will not be blacklisted by all the residencies and quitting did not seem to affect where my classmates got interviews. Talk to someone in your program or your dean (I am sure he/she has dealt with this before). If you don't feel comfortable posting your feelings in public, feel free to PM me.

 

[Maebea]

I encourage you to talk with the people who run your program; you are going to have to do it sooner or later. You will probably find that they will be understanding and supportive. They want what is best for you. The program gains nothing by having you stay and be miserable. You will either be a 10+ year student or you will drop out after a couple of years in the lab. Dropping out now saves the program a lot of headaches and money. In a way, you will be doing them a favor. Yes, there will probably be that sneaking suspicion among some individuals that you gamed the system, and had planned all along to get half your MD paid for before dropping out. You will just have to accept that. You know what the truth is, and that's all that matters.

This is not an easy decision, and you should not make it in isolation. I am amazed that some individuals make such a decision without once talking with the people most responsible for their training. These students just show up in the office one day to announce that they are resigning. Perhaps I am being too harsh, but to me this indicates a total lack of trust, respect and maturity on their part. Adults in relationship talk with one another to resolve difficult situations. I have maintained good relationships with many of the individuals who left our program to pursue the MD. I was disappointed that they left, but I was pleased that they approached the decision by seeking out our counsel and that of others.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[Schnookie1]

I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for you. You obviously made yourself sound interested in some kind of research to get an acceptance to an MSTP program--especially a top ten one. And now, after two years of paid for med school you decide you don't like research? That just sounds really really lame. There are so many of us out there who really have a passion to complete the MD/PhD and who have made an informed decision--and one of us may have our spot given to someone like you, which is terrible.

I don't want to be rude or mean, but seriously, just think about what you just wrote--the situation you find yourself in shows complete lack of insight.

 

[sdnetrocks]

This is an NIH-funded program, so money isn't an issue. Since I'm on the topic, neither was money the driving factor for pursuing the dual degrees. Not to sound like a total jerk about it, but my application was strong enough that had I applied MD-only to this school, I would have gotten a full-tuition 4-year scholarship... The decision to go MSTP was simply a way to procrastinate on making a decision, which is something I'm really bad at. Even now, I find myself leaning towards an internal medicine or meds/peds residency just to delay making the decision of what kind of physician I want to be.

Schnookie1, I can understand where you're coming from, but I earned my spot "fair and square", so to say.

Maebea, I really appreciate the advice of talking to people in the program, but I think I'm going to wait at least until January to do so. Is it evil to want to have as much of second year paid for as I can possibly get?

I guess the main thing that has been keeping me in the program lately was the belief (perhaps exaggerated) that the dual degrees would be my ticket to any residency I want. However, as I have preliminarily crossed out most of the super-competitive residencies, this no longer seems like such a big issue (if it was even big in the first place).

 

[BDavis]

Maebea, I really appreciate the advice of talking to people in the program, but I think I'm going to wait at least until January to do so. Is it evil to want to have as much of second year paid for as I can possibly get?

If you know you are going to leave, the earlier you discuss it with your program director, the less likely they are going to be resentful. Leaving on good terms is important because many program directors are fairly successful physician-scientists and the last thing you would want is for a program director of a residency program to call your MSTP director and ask them for an "informal recommendation". If you bring up the topic of quitting, they are not going to suspend you nor cut your salary because you talked about quitting. Instead they are going to present options to help you decide what career path is best.

I don't know if you are in basic sciences and whether you will start clinics prior to going to graduate school. You should at least try 1 or 2 lab rotations before making the final decision so you can be really sure. From your posts, it sounds like you are more burned out from basic sciences than anything.

 

[Habari]

I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for you. You obviously made yourself sound interested in some kind of research to get an acceptance to an MSTP program--especially a top ten one. And now, after two years of paid for med school you decide you don't like research? That just sounds really really lame. There are so many of us out there who really have a passion to complete the MD/PhD and who have made an informed decision--and one of us may have our spot given to someone like you, which is terrible.

I don't want to be rude or mean, but seriously, just think about what you just wrote--the situation you find yourself in shows complete lack of insight.

are you accusing him of 'flip-flopping'? rather absurd/naive argument.

after doing what maebea suggested, it is up to you. you certainly didn't sign away your autonomy when joining the program.

 

[sdnetrocks]

Half of my class quit...

I just looked this up because I was curious - out of the 10+ fellows in the year ahead of me, NOBODY quit... 😕

 

[Schnookie1]

are you accusing him of 'flip-flopping'? rather absurd/naive argument.

Not accusing him of 'flip-flopping' but misrepresentation when applying. False interest is so insincere--particularly re: research when there are people out there who are wholeheartedly devoted and passionate about it.

There's nothing wrong about CHANGING YOUR MIND or 'flip-flopping' if you'd like to call it that. But there is something really disturbing about hearing someone who has gone two years in the program and who says they don't think they've ever really been into/"passionate" about doing research...or someone who says they did MSTP for a good residency program. If you think saying/doing those things is normal or okay, then I think THAT is rather absurd/naive.

 

[BDavis]

I just looked this up because I was curious - out of the 10+ fellows in the year ahead of me, NOBODY quit... 😕

I am at Baylor, check the class that entered in 1998. I am technically a 7th year MSTP student (if you are in the MS2 class than I am 5 year ahead of you). I think you are looking at the class that has a lot of engineers in it. My class is the year without anyone who went into the Rice engineering program.

 

[stillsmilin]

And now, after two years of paid for med school you decide you don't like research? That just sounds really really lame. There are so many of us out there who really have a passion to complete the MD/PhD and who have made an informed decision--and one of us may have our spot given to someone like you, which is terrible.

it's not terrible bc you earned that spot and you didnt need to earn the right to do what you want w/your life. if the phd isnt where your heart is, you should have NO reservations. you only have one life to live and no one has all the time in the world - - you have to do what you want to do. true, there may be repercussions that have been discussed in earlier posts like bad footing with your director, but that wont stop you from getting an md and treating patients. you should not feel bad about quitting the phd if that means pursuing something fulltime that is more meaningful to you. and it actually takes a lot of courage to move off a track youve set on. md or md/phd, you are working towards health and you should be commended. go get em

 

[Neuronix]

Schnookie, could you please stick to your first account. Please don't create other accounts just to say negative things. The moderators at SDN don't appreciate that. Consider this a warning. Further, I'd refrain from judging current MD/PhD students from the position of applicant. Things can change alot once you're in a program, and while I have been seriously pro-MSTP over the years, even I have been seriously considering leaving my program lately.

Now, I completely agree with BDavis and Maebea, but I also agree with another poster who deleted their post (why?) which says you should really give it another year to make sure research really isn't for you. Maybe you'll fall back in love with research if you find the right topic or lab? Well, either way you go, nobody is in a position to judge you, and I'm sure there won't be any backlash against you.

Good luck!

 

[Schnookie1]

I only have one account and it's lawfully not right of you to make such accusations--if you have a question regarding my account, contact me--don't post in a manner akin to libel. My computer is shared by several people if that's what you are getting at.

 

[Schnookie1]

Plus, my comments were not negative or insulting in any manner. It should just make other people think twice before jumping into MSTP programs for the wrong reasons.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Now, I completely agree with BDavis and Maebea, but I also agree with another poster who deleted their post (why?) which says you should really give it another year to make sure research really isn't for you. Maybe you'll fall back in love with research if you find the right topic or lab? Well, either way you go, nobody is in a position to judge you, and I'm sure there won't be any backlash against you.

Good luck!

Yeah Neuronix, that poster who deleted the post was me. I decided to delete it because my comments could've been construed as being judgmental. Basically, in a nutshell, I just plainly stated that I would find it hard to justify dropping out of a program after M2 year without doing any graduate research work as opposed to dropping out after doing a year or two of research and realizing that one's heart was not into the research. I said some other things, in agreement with Schnookie, however I can't remember the rest of the post.

Look, we're supposed to be supportive to one another here. If sdnetrocks wants to drop out of MSTP, he is gonna do it. And it's cool that people are chiming in and helping him out. If I were to give advice regarding this issue, I would basically reiterate what BDavis and Maebea said.

Being judgmental is going to solve nothing and it's certainly not going to undo the past regardless of what our opinions are regarding his insight or lack thereof.

 

[Logos']

..

 

[b&ierstiefel]

The clinical experience during the third year of medical school was, for me, a black hole of conformity that tried to strip all intellectualism and creativity fostered during my years in the lab. All of the MD only physician scientists I know of completed a postdoc (pseudo PhD) experience and would have preferred the MD/PhD route for a number of reasons. So if you are thinking that you will drop out of the MSTP and then go to residency in the hopes of getting back into a research oriented academic career, I think you will have made a poor choice. I agree with Andy that if you had sufficient undergraduate research experience to justify your commitment to an MSTP, then you should at least get into a lab and give it a chance (you don?t have to wait till third year ? I remember having plenty of time during second year to work in the lab ? in fact I think it is what kept me happy).

Just to reiterate what Logos said (since it seems we're on the same wavelength), there are plenty of opportunities to do research even during the first two years of med school. Apart from the standard summer research rotations, these opportunities also enable to get one's feet a little more wet in terms of research activity. Like Logos, I worked in the lab during all of 2nd year med school. I personally hated going to class and working in the lab (instead of sitting on my ass all day at home) really made 2nd year more interesting above the daily doldrums of studying med school stuff.

 

[Neuronix]

It would be impossible for me to do anything meaningful in a lab right now. Everyone else in my second year MD/PhD class feels the same way. Our schedules are crammed with all sorts of extra medical school classes beyond the normal second year cirriculum.

I'll tell ya, I wish I could be doing some research right now. Med school all the time really bites.

 

[BDavis]

It would be impossible for me to do anything meaningful in a lab right now. Everyone else in my second year MD/PhD class feels the same way. Our schedules are crammed with all sorts of extra medical school classes beyond the normal second year cirriculum.

I'll tell ya, I wish I could be doing some research right now. Med school all the time really bites.

Our basic sciences was crammed into 1.5 years so we could have 6 months of clinical rotations before entering graduate school so I just focused on whatever classes I was taking at the time. I figured that I would have plenty of time to do research in graduate school. I have enjoyed both the medical and graduate school (although in graduate school I really blew off the classes so I could spend more time at the bench). Although basic sciences in 1.5 years or 1 year is really brutal (do you want to painfully cut off your hand slowly or quickly), I thought it was worth it to get into clinics earlier.

 

[cluelesspremed]

Hey everyone...

Sorry to bother you all, this thread actually interested me as an applicant because I was kind of wondering how often/if students ever switched their minds after joining a program. I think the notion of going into academic medicine is awesome and intend on doing so (hopefully I can get into a program...I'm applying right now).

I just had two questions:
So approx. what percent of MD/PhD students do complete the program?

Should I evaluate the programs I apply to based on the number of students that were accepted by each program and actually matriculated? (ie. a school could have accepted 12 people...but only 2 matriculate etc.) or on publications/success of the students, where they get residencies, etc... I'm not sure how to compare these programs, they all sound great to me.


Thanks everyone and I just wanted to say I have the utmost respect for all of you MD/PhD students - I hope I can be in your shoes a year from now.

The best of luck to you all!

 

[BDavis]

I just had two questions:
So approx. what percent of MD/PhD students do complete the program?

Should I evaluate the programs I apply to based on the number of students that were accepted by each program and actually matriculated?

For our program (Baylor) it ranges from 0% to 50% of the class quitting; I don't have any idea what our program average is, but I suspect it to be about 20-30% overall.

I don't know if the number dropping out represents the quality of the program (but maybe it is related to the overall happiness of students in the program). I think there are other factors to consider such as location, clinical experience, research faculty, overall length of the program, student personalities and where the students end up matching. I am sure I missed a couple of other factors to look at.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

The attrition rate at MSTP programs will clearly vary from program to program. It is dependent on so many random factors as you may imagine. At our school, the class above me experienced significant attrition. Of that class, only 3 will complete the program whereas the others have completed their MD training and are succeeding in residencies now. Since then, in the subsequent classes, our program has only had 2 others drop out. I don't know how this compares to other schools but I'm sure there are programs where almost nobody drops out.

I believe that attrition rate may not be a very reliable factor to judge where you will decide to matriculate. However, I would see some red flags if the attrition rate from year to year was significantly high. Clearly there are other factors that would better figure into the decision making process such as:
Do you like the medical school and grad curriculum?
Are the administrative staff and the program director nice and helpful?
Prestige of the insitution.
Presence of faculty with whom you would really want to do your thesis research.
etc. etc.

Best of luck with the application process! Hopefully you will end up at a program you really like 🙂

 

[tr]

I just want to say that the attrition rate at our school seems to be rather low in comparison to those of other posters here. I know of two people who dropped out (across a sample size of about fifty). One had suffered a setback in his personal life that influenced his decision. The other had from the beginning seemed not strongly committed.

Personally, I think the only good reason to drop out is if you've decided you really don't want a research career. If you think you will want to do research in the future, it's absolutely worth a few extra years to pick up the knowledge and skills you'll need. I can't imagine trying to go into a postdoc without having had the experience of being a PhD student. I know people do it, but I really don't know how they manage.

 

[b&ierstiefel]

Personally, I think the only good reason to drop out is if you've decided you really don't want a research career. If you think you will want to do research in the future, it's absolutely worth a few extra years to pick up the knowledge and skills you'll need. I can't imagine trying to go into a postdoc without having had the experience of being a PhD student. I know people do it, but I really don't know how they manage.

I totally agree. As for doing a postdoc without a PhD, I think it takes a rare, special person to do that and have enough luck and wisdom to succeed. I know a few folks who have pulled it off. Many MD's who go directly to postdoc training, from what I've seen, just don't do a great job. However, since having and MD opens more doors than having a PhD, I can see how in some cases subpar research can still get an MD person a faculty job (that a PhD person wouldn't end up getting in his/her wildest dreams!). I personally value the PhD background and the preparation a PhD training provides.