R01s during the PhD

[linuxizer]

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First of all, I'd like to say hi to y'all. I've been reading for awhile and the forum is a wonderful bastion of civility for the most part, and has been a critical factor in my decision to go the MSTP route. So thanks.

In a post the other day, it was mentioned that getting an R01 during the PhD phase would enable the grantee to get pretty much any faculty post he/she wanted, as top universities don't really provide funding for anything any more. But my understanding of the R01 application was that a huge chunk of the form is dedicated to proving you have enough institutional support to make it worth their while--how many square feet of lab space, what equipment you already have, etc. Do they make special considerations for PhDs, or does your app just have to be so good that they overlook the fact that you're still just a student? If the latter is true, that would mean getting an R01 as a PhD candidate is even harder than getting one as a faculty member 🙁 .

Any answers would be great....
Ciao,
Ari

 

[Neuronix]

Greetings linuxizer! I'm glad the forum is helpful for you and I will try to answer your question.

Here's the definition of R01 from http://www.niaid.nih.gov/ncn/grants/mechan.htm

R01
Research Project Grants -- provide support to an institution (domestic or foreign) on behalf of a principal investigator for a project proposed by the investigator. Most NIH research is via the R01. Rarely, such a grant may be awarded directly to an individual.

I didn't think that it's possible for a grad student to be the principal investigator on a R01 funding grant, as it is the main funding source for faculty. You can be included on R01s for the lab you are in and get involved with the grant writing process, but you would not be the "Principal Investigator" on that sort of grant. Typically, faculty are applying for R01s when they are late post-docs or assistant professors so that they can get money for their lab and try to obtain tenure (which tends to require at least one R01). There are other ways that grad students can compete for private funding, but it's not a required process, just a bonus. Funding really becomes important in post-doc, but then there are special public and private postgraduate grants (like the F32) that post-docs can apply for.

 

[linuxizer]

Ok, so I found the quote I was remembering. sluox: "Generally speaking, you write your first R01 during your fellowship years." So this would be a post-Ph.D. application as you were saying, Neuronix. Does the fact that the money goes to the institution, not to the PI, mean you can't take the funding with you to another institution?
Also, what are the benefits to a grad student of competing for funding, given that their PI is funding them anyway? Prestige? A larger stipend? Prouder parents?
Thanks,
Ari
P.S. I'm at Penn also, just a few years behind you in the pipeline ;-). If you ever need a break stop by for some tea or something.

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

winning any grants/awards/papers is going to pump up your CV, and have an influence on your ability to do more of what i just mentioned. in regards to R01...yup, this is the pearly white gates...the trophy wife...the "thing" that everyone is striving for. it's not realistic to be aiming for that while you are in your ph.d..the people competing for those are already established ....and even then, they don't land them. by the time you get it...you'll probably have a litany of publications, smaller grants (R03, K, private grants), and a post-doc under your belt.
but if you do get it...be prepared to go wherever you want!

 

[Neuronix]

Originally posted by linuxizer
Does the fact that the money goes to the institution, not to the PI, mean you can't take the funding with you to another institution?
Also, what are the benefits to a grad student of competing for funding, given that their PI is funding them anyway? Prestige? A larger stipend? Prouder parents?
Thanks,
Ari
P.S. I'm at Penn also, just a few years behind you in the pipeline ;-). If you ever need a break stop by for some tea or something.

About the R01, I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that question. I'll see if I can find out or maybe someone else knows.

I agree with what nuclearrabit said. Successfully competing for funding looks good on your CV and you can take that CV into your residency or post-doc or beyond. It's not required of grad students, but it looks good. Sometimes you get more money because of a grant, sometimes you don't. It depends on the size of the grant, the directions on the grant, and the view of the mentor and grad program on this.

I would be happy to meet with you. I am involved with a couple undergraduate advising programs (here: Penn Med Insight and AMSA's pre-med advising program) because I like to try to help undergrads with advice and perspective that they need to succeed. Give me a PM or an e-mail sometime when you're available and we'll talk...

 

[Maebea]

Technically, the RO1 is awarded to the institution. However, when a PI transfers to another institution, s/he generally takes the grant to the new institution. There have been situations where the original institution has been obstructionist about this, and has even refused to let the PI take equipment purchased with the RO1 to the new institution. This is fairly uncommon.

As a PhD student you should not even be thinking about RO1s. There are some F awards MD/PhD students can compete for, but an RO1 is out of the question. In the fellowship/postdoc phase you can apply for either K or R awards. The Ks are mentored awards, meaning you are aligned with a faculty member, and draw on his/her strength & expertise. For RO1s you stand on your own record.

 

[Primate]

As mentioned, R01s are most typically mobile.

Getting a K grant is easier during late fellowship than an R01. It sets one up to get data for a follow-on R01. The R01s are typically only granted for the proposed research after significant data are obtained (read as, you often will have published much of what you propose in the R01 and be close to publishing the remainder). In essence, each new grant is funded on the merits of what you've already done! It's so competitive in most fields (though Ophtho and the NEI funded to 40% last year - a record, I think - most only fund to about the 20%), that you practically write a grant on what's already worked for you and then use the money for your next project. Not entirely, but close.

As for parents that are more proud, I'd be happy if they even got the concept of MD/PhD. Trying to explain an R01 would lead to much snoozing around the holiday dinner table. They do like to bounce medical questions off me though. Now if I could just explain to my kids that Daddy's not a little "slow" just because he's still in school..... 😀

Best of luck with the CD - perhaps we'll meet if you interview here (also a Penn student). Feel free to PM with Penn specific questions - I'm a happy cheerleader for this program.

P

 

[linuxizer]

Ok, so I get the picture...no R01's during the Ph.D. F grants, maybe industry funding [?], but no R01's. Basically it seems the R01 is a way to get money in the hands of the really successful researchers and allow them the freedom to tinker? Also, once you have an R01 I'm assuming it's much easier to get the next R01? I ran across a CV of someone in the neuroscience department at UAB where I work in the summer with 3 or 4 R01's received or pending. Scary.
Neuronix and Primate- Thanks. I'll definitely apply to Penn MSTP. Whether I get in or not will depend I guess on how heavily they weight things like my hopefully-by-then-finished symphony over my GPA. I was all on track for straight A's this semester and then I came down with mono three weeks ago. So now I'm facing the bleak prospect of a week of exams after missing two weeks of class. Ok, enough whining; off to studying.
Thanks for all the help so far.
Ciao,
Ari

 

[vixey1230]

I just wanted to throw out there the fact that getting an R01 as a grad student is not impossible, although extremely difficult.

There is a grad student (who is in his 7th yr) in my lab who is the PI on a R01. Let's just say that the graduate program has no desire to push him out at this point. Most PhD candidates in their 7th yr would be feeling extreme pressure from the dept to finish up and graduate. But they're definately more than happy to have him stick around for a while longer.

So I would assume that it's the exception, rather than the rule... but it is possible.

 

[linuxizer]

vixey- I'm sure they are in no hurry to kick him out. He, on the other hand, might want to get out before his R01 expires!
On a somewhat related note, does the MSTP grant pay tuition as well during the PhD years? It's my understanding that more and more schools are making the PI pay PhD tuition now, so does that make MSTP's as valuable a commodity in labs as work-study students (where the Federal government pays 2/3 salary) are in undergrad?
--Ari

 

[dl2dp2]

generally speaking, the NIH's policy is to cover up to 6 years of education. If your school cuts the clincial clerkships to 1.3-1.5 years as mine does, that leaves you with 2.5 years of fully funding FOR YOU, and ONLY YOU 🙂 So, this alone would make you a highly sought after graduate student. And, plus you can probably get an NSF/NIH predoctoral grant after the couple of years of graduate school...So hopefully your PI wouldn't have to pay your salary...much...

On the other hand, those REALLY bright graduate students (PhD only) who get the HHMI/NSF/NIH predoctoral PRIOR to entering graduate school are very highly sought after as well. But my PhD director told me that there are specific NIH based MD/PhD training grants that I apply for, rather than the normal NSF grants. I have NO CLUE what he's refering to. Various private agencies have pre-doctoral grants as well. Also, there is a defense dept grant which is available for systems neuroscience/bioengineering people. The grants in cancer/HIV related are numerous as well.

So going back to the topic at hand...R01 is not particularly apropo for a PhD STUDENT (compared to, say, a post-doc) However, you can (and SHOULD!!) apply for grants above and beyond fully funding your stipend, some of which may even cover some of the lab supply expensese (and your PI will LOVE you)