racism in US residency system

[MediumDef]

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Since when is the use of paki or dot-indian derogatory?

The whole point of the paki and dot-not-feather indian remark was to get a rise out of the person to which I was replying.

Ummmm..these two positions seem contradictory

 

[McGillGrad]

Ummmm..these two positions seem contradictory

Not at all. It is called being a dick.

 

[MediumDef]

Not at all. It is called being a dick.

Ha! Fair enough, as long as your internally consistent.

 

[RebelWarriorUK]

Since you are not a visible minority, then you have not experienced blatant racism. My point is that its not a matter of "letting words control you", you obviously do not understand that these words carry with them a history of fear, repression and subjugation. So its very easy for you who has never experienced it to say "shrug it off" and don't let it affect you. If you want to bury your head in the sand and not understand the wider implications of the words that you use, then that is upto you.

Obviously making assumptions is dangerous because you are wrong. I have been a minority my whole life, just not a visible minority.

Once again, you are allowing yourself to be controlled by words. As for the "neo-nazis" that were "trying to pick a fight" with you, that sucks but that is what the police and self-defense classes are for. Stop being a victim.

 

[eforest]

If I went over to India- I'm sure I would make a lot of social mistakes. I wouldn't wear fashionable clothing, my table manners would be different, etc. I'd probably accidently offend people, I'm sure I would not do well in the job market.

The same is true for those from other countries who come to the US. And there are a few things to remember that will help you. Firstly, Americans are obsessed with showering and being clean- more so than many other countries. Some people even shower twice a day. Also, when you shake hands, in America it is considered proper to give a firm handshake while looking the person in the eye. If you give a weak handshake, people may see you as underconfident, whereas Americans can be misconstrued as aggressive. There are also language issues- the IMG's I've worked with speak very good English, but sometimes cultural nuances are lost- and there are some differences between the British English IMG's speak and the American English here.

It's tough to come to another country and I think that many times IMG's have to prove themselves more. But I wouldn't call these issues racist.

 

[142348]

I had this experienzes in my program and got written ups many times so I know your difficulties. Some writeups from these dummies included -----

1. talking in hindi to my mother on phones in patient room
2. putting the oils on my hair and head every day because this will stop the hairs from falling.
3. having fights with these unreasonable pakistaniz in dis slum hole
4. eating once the patientz foods - this I never did.
5. eating rice with hands at annual lunch (but this the program manager gave me warning that it will not be polite).

First off, Indiandok, your english is the reason why people often ridicule foreign doctors, espically Indians. I'd be embarassed if a middle school student wrote as poorly as you do. And FYI, we use the letter S not Z.

With regards to your write-ups, I think you are pretty wrong on most of these. #2 is your own business, as long as its not absurd amounts. Talking in a foreign language in a patient room is absurd, do you know how disrespectful it is to pick up a call in a patient room, let alone to start speaking in another language. Eating rice with you hand is just poor social etiquette, it may work in India or in your own house but not in public.

I hope that you learn to speak and write English a little better, get use to the social norms of this country and then maybe we could have an intellectual discussion.

 

[142348]

Memberkane-

I'm not trying to divert the conversation. I do feel the need to reply to some of your outlandish statements.

1) With regards to the whole Indian not Indian situation, you may believe that since I'm not an Indian national I have no right to call myself Indian. However, I definately believe as do most of my American born Indians that we have the right to call ourselves Indian-American. If you want to get technical and say I don't have an Indian passport, then fine you are right.

2) As to my "stereotyped assumptions", I would argue that they are not. I have met, worked with, and interacted in the community with many Indian FMG's. Over time many of them acquire the appropriate social accumen, at the beginning they do not have it and it leads to situations like those noted by indiandok.

3) Finding out about program is fairly easy actually. First off, search websites such as student doctor regarding programs. If there is no info, post a thread and you'd be amazed at the responses you get. On top of that there are other websites that have program descriptions. When you interview at programs, ask for residents private emails and ask them for their honest opinion. Lastly, get out and ask your colleagues that you know and I'm sure people will be able to help. Will this work for every program, no but I think it will for the majority.

4) You keep pointing to this racism that exists and I don't deny that their are pockets but honestly, I have worked or trained at nearly a dozen hospitals in my short career and can say that not once have I ever seen a situation similar to the perils you describe and I've been to poor community hospitals in Ohio to posh university based programs. I think that if you end up at poor community hospital that uses FMG's yearly than you will probably get treated poorly, not because you are or aren't Indian or visa holder, but that's the way the system is designed there. I have a friend who was somewhat of a medical education vagabond and ended up in one of these institutions and he has had a miserable existence similar to what you have described and he is an AMG. I think you want to find a way to justify your treatment and are using the race card to do it.

You keep pleading the case of the vulnerable IMG's on visas but you fail to realize that they have culpability in how they are treated. As a physician, they need to make better choices as to where they train and if they are treated poorly, do something about it. To sit here and whine serves no purpose.

I will end by telling you the same thing I told you before. The grass is always greener on the other side and if you really have this much of a problem with a country I love, than get the hell out. We don't need you.

 

[Indiandok]

Mr. Wagyji - you are who sir? Indianz or Americanz? First, to note, you have no rights here to comment - as Mr. Kane pointed out to you - you are not in our categories becuz you have American blood and want to sleep with our wives (not nice) you have had a short career but have been to the 12++++ hospitals - how is this? You got put out - or layed out from each jobs? I will pray for you to find new posting. how dare you tell us to get out of this place - do you have visa brother? you said your mother is fmg - she came legally? you might be careful or you might be selling some sweets in shops in Gujarat corner - ok?

Second, you attack Kaneji for no reason - how did you know he not showering???I take offense - how was I to know Americans shower daily? It is chill in the area I am. Even in Mumbai it never gets this cold - how to take bath in the cold weather? You answer me. Then one nurse told me that she likes me in America - but to bathe. I started to bathe once in 2 days now. and which man ever tells about scent? in India, we used powder only. true? Now, they make stick with nice smells so we use. that still gives no excuse for racism and discriminationsssss. you are the disciminating people that Mr. Kaneji talks about.

Mr. McGill - i'm laughing my bum off too but it's at your ignoranz. You are from Canada - it is like Kannada - who is your president? You are not American - why are you posting your nonsense????? You think this racism with Indians is funny? I know some people in Toronto that will know you and your family so be clean and take good showers. Thank you.

 

[missense]

i wasn't going to respond to any of the foolishness that has been spreading through this thread in the last few hours, but i have to point this one out for those who are quick to judge....

the post out there by indiandok seems to me to be a fake account of some phony experience. i guess someone out there thought it would be amusing to make fun of the discussion started by OP and to mock indian FMG's. if you read that post again carefully, the language and grammar mistakes within the post aren't even consistent and the entire experience as well as the spelling/grammar mistakes were most likely fabricated. i wouldn't take that one seriously folks.

and...if that isn't racist and insensitive, i don't know what is!?! if there is anyone out there who moderates, can we clean this thread up please?

 

[142348]

Mr. Wagyji - you are who sir? Indianz or Americanz? First, to note, you have no rights here to comment - as Mr. Kane pointed out to you - you are not in our categories becuz you have American blood and want to sleep with our wives (not nice) you have had a short career but have been to the 12++++ hospitals - how is this? You got put out - or layed out from each jobs? I will pray for you to find new posting. how dare you tell us to get out of this place - do you have visa brother? you said your mother is fmg - she came legally? you might be careful or you might be selling some sweets in shops in Gujarat corner - ok?

Second, you attack Kaneji for no reason - how did you know he not showering???I take offense - how was I to know Americans shower daily? It is chill in the area I am. Even in Mumbai it never gets this cold - how to take bath in the cold weather? You answer me. Then one nurse told me that she likes me in America - but to bathe. I started to bathe once in 2 days now. and which man ever tells about scent? in India, we used powder only. true? Now, they make stick with nice smells so we use. that still gives no excuse for racism and discriminationsssss. you are the disciminating people that Mr. Kaneji talks about.

I'm assuming this a joke, you can't be real. However, since it's Sunday evening and I'd rather play along than read for tomorrow I'll respond.

I don't know about this whole Indian thing...after hearing you two it makes me question whether I want to call myself Indian. As to sleeping with your wives, well I have enough on my hands with my fiancee, so I'll pass. The 12 hospitals thing, if you realized that I was a resident, would be fairly explanatory. I rotated at many hospitals as a 3rd/4th year medical student and am now doing my residency at another hospital. No getting fired yet. As to having a visa...I was born in the US, enough said brother. Not to worried about selling sweets in gujrat, other than the fact that I might eat more than I sold.

As for the showering business, I made no comment. You do what you want with that but good luck with the ladies when your armpits smell like a public restroom in Bombay.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

To Missense: Of course it's a troll, but a troll with enough cultural knowledge to append the honorific "ji," makes jokes about Gujarati sweet-sellers, and threaten about the all-holy power of Families Knowing Each Other. So verdict's out on him.

To Wagy: I think the others might be right in the sense that Memberkane is describing prejudice based on visa status and national origin rather than ethnicity specifically.

To Memberkane: If you have several years of US educational experience (esp in formative high school years) and write colloquial American English as well as you do (seriously, I was struck by your masterful repetition of the word 'dude') then you should well know that most of your compatriots do NOT fit in quite as well. There's a lot of helpful intent in what people are trying to say in re: FMGs conforming to US cultural expectations. The showering business was meant well.

Given the fact that the overwhelming majority of FMGs do, in fact, come from the Indian subcontinent, you might be confusing the "refugee status" of foreigners attempting to train in the US, whose right to stay in the country is dependent on their job and therefore on pleasing their PD, with specific prejudice against Indians/Pakistanis/Bengalis. Just because every incident that you can recall of an FMG getting kicked out happened to involve an Indian/Pakistani resident doesn't mean that those FMGs in particular have it any worse than any other FMGs.

Now, if you wanted to start a discussion about the humane treatment of resident foreigners, that could be interesting... or do you still insist that Indian Subcontinentals are especially singled out?

To all: I believe McGillGrad is a quebecois francophone, a fiercely independent and proud minority viewed with varying degrees of tolerance by the rest of Canada, who has obtained his medical education in a foreign language (English) and therefore feels justified in speaking out on these issues.

 

[McGillGrad]

I was hoping that you would try to portray one type of prejudice more severe (i.e. the type against you) while professing that other types are any less traumatizing. This, in-and-of-itself, says a lot about your adherence to the cult of victimhood and your inability to stand of your own without using racism as a crutch to explain away any of your failures in life. I am embarrassed for you.

Since you are not a visible minority, then you have not experienced blatant racism. My point is that its not a matter of "letting words control you", you obviously do not understand that these words carry with them a history of fear, repression and subjugation. So its very easy for you who has never experienced it to say "shrug it off" and don't let it affect you. If you want to bury your head in the sand and not understand the wider implications of the words that you use, then that is upto you.

 

[McGillGrad]

To all: I believe McGillGrad is a quebecois francophone, a fiercely independent and proud minority viewed with varying degrees of tolerance by the rest of Canada, who has obtained his medical education in a foreign language (English) and therefore feels justified in speaking out on these issues.

As always, I am impressed.

 

[RebelWarriorUK]

I was hoping that you would try to portray one type of prejudice more severe (i.e. the type against you) while professing that other types are any less traumatizing. This, in-and-of-itself, says a lot about your adherence to the cult of victimhood and your inability to stand of your own without using racism as a crutch to explain away any of your failures in life. I am embarrassed for you.

I didn't say that other types of prejudice were less traumatizing, I said that if you haven't hadn't experienced blatant racism, then you don't know what its like and you can't just say that its "just words" and shrug it off.
My original post to you was because I genuinely thought that you didn't know that the terms you used were offensive, so I was just letting you know that they were and giving you some context to those words (I'm sure that you wouldn't have written similar slurs against black people if that had been the ethnicity being discussed). The fact that you did, and still used them shows your ignorance. Obviously you just like to provoke people and have no real interest in seeing another point of view so there is little point in discussing this with you. I am not a victim and haven't used racism as a "crutch" for any "failures" in life. And yes you should be embarassed...but for yourself, because your attitude and needlessly provocative statements are pitiful. I fear for your future patients because you are obviously a person that finds it difficult to deal with other perspectives and input.
Good luck to you in medicine, because you will need it.

 

[sirus_virus]

Here goes:

2. Europeans are ethinic - Americans in general are of mixed racial origin. A slavic white from Russia considers himself different from a Nordic white from say Germany. Being white does not mean you and them are the same. USA was built by immigrants and descendents of immigrants. You are probably a descendent of immigrants - and you won't let others in now? Europe was not built by immigrants - I think their laws are fair.

Your suggestion that homogeneous ‘ethnic' societies "not built by immigrants" like Europe and probably wherever you are from, have the rights to sideline foreign people with their laws tells me that you are infact tolerant of the same bullcrap you are arguing against on this thread.

doctors come to US for a better education and better life.

My point exact, so enjoy.

4. The black president is there because of his personal merit - not because of your sympathy or your pity - don't take credit for it.

Good point, so you know we as a society would give anyone a chance if they are good at what they do, as opposed to whining online, why dont you use that as inspiration to show your skills and grab some of that respect you so much crave by "personal merit".

BTW, your assumption that blacks and other ethnic minorities have it better than you also tells me that racism is only a problem when it affects you (selfish). Look, some people in your country that don't even look different from you but happen to fall into some arbitrary ‘caste' cant even raise their heads let alone get a decent job, so don't come up here with this piece of junk thread to educate us about racism and what's fair. I am embarrassed to post on this thread BTW, so enjoy your circus.

 

[memberkane]

Hi everyone,

I had posted the following facts in my previous post and am quoting them again.

some blaring, in-your-face matters:
6 IMG indian subcontinent residents on visas have had their careers chopped/ tormented midway in this program in 3 years - a clear pattern. Several post PGY1 IMG residents - disproportionately from the Indian subcontinent - are running pillar to post trying to salvage their careers at several programs.

Surely, ALL of them cannot be "technically" or "culturally" incompetent!!!!

Infact, I encourage you to look around and check how many Indian subcontinent IMGs are having issues with non-renewal, termination etc compared to other residents (proportion) - you will see what I mean.....

I find a lot of people on this forum pooh-poohing and pushing aside these clear and present race/ culture issues, and stating that "it is all a case of cultural competence issues with attendings" !!!! Even when facts and figures are being quoted, a lot of skepticism is being shown. Mean..not fair

for example: Nazis denied the holocaust, the perpetrators of apartheid denied any wrongdoing over the blacks. Now the world knows the truth.

Yes, racially targeting and terminating residents is almost as bad - these people devoted almost 8 to 10 years or more of their lives to studying medicine, spent their savings, money, youth, energy .... Don't just pooh-pooh people when they say that they or their kind face bias...

The majority of US faculty are intolerant of discrimination - racial/ cultural/ sex/ appearance/ national origin - where are those people?? why are they not speaking out here??

I hope this cultural/ racial bias will die out in the future, but please don't just deny bitter facts like the proverbial ostrich by "burying your heads in the sand".

AND the people who said that derogratory words like "dot indians" and "pakis" are OK are going to be the racially biased attendings of the future.

To the skeptic, what makes you think that the Indian IMG residents in trouble are "not conforming to social/ cultural standards"? who told you that?? Don't irrationally assume things - Indian IMGs are as professional as any other resident subgroup.

American society is supposed to be a melting pot of cultures. And residency is supposed to about training and education - not sucking up to someone.

Look forward to your ideas..

Let me tell you about my experience:
My residency program 2007-2008 batch: 1 indian contract not renewed, 1 indian transferred programs due to the situation at program - the lucky indian; 2006-2007 batch: 1 pakistani contract not renewed and 1 indian transfers out because she "discovered she liked another specialty"; 2005-2006 batch: 1 indian sikh resident contract not renewed - other indian residents of his batch say that his was a struggle for dignity, 1 indian transfers out. I have no info reg, previous years.

The Program Director has wonderful stories regarding Indian applicants : he once told me and my indian PGY1 colleague at a afternoon conference that once an Indian applicant threatened to sue the program because he was not called for interview despite passing USMLE - everyone was laughing at his "true" story (read Indian applicants are desperate). I got the 2nd highest Inservice exam scores and the PD publicly states that "Well, you and many Indians seem to be good test-takers, but this does not mean that they can apply it" - and the majority of faculty vocally agreed. Many, many such instances.
Indian colleagues were in survival mode and were in a state of abject surrender to the attendings.

I went for PGY2 interviews to other programs as my contract was not renewed for pGY2 and guess what I found?? ALL the candidates for the pgy2 interviews were indian/ pakistani ( people who did not get PGy2 or whose contracts not renewed etc), and the residents whose vacated positions I went to fill were IMGs mostly from India. And the PD of one of the Family Practice programs says, " well a lot residents come here from India and what do you know! they get married, and start families here!!" She said it in a very demeaning way.

What should I make of these situations, people?

 

[memberkane]

1. You equated yourself with Europeans - said that they do not like immigration and spit on foreigner job seekers, and so immigrants/ foreigners should be "glad" for better treatment here in US.
YOU a son/ grandson of immigrants talking such crap is like spitting on your own granddad/ ancestor.

2. Don't claim credit for obama's victory. Blacks were enslaved and treated like animals for centuries in America. You talk as if you gave Obama the presidency out of pity or sympathy.

I dare you to openly discriminate against american blacks today if you can- they will kick your a**.

IMGs on visas would do the same - their hands are bound because they are much more vulnerable because they are on visas, are foreigners among other issues. My point is their merit is being subdued by racial bias.

Lower caste people would kick a** if someone discriminated against them in my country. Don't try to divert the topic.

Your attitude is an embarrassment to the great spirit of the USA - supposed to be built on the principles of freedom and equality.

Your suggestion that homogeneous ‘ethnic' societies "not built by immigrants" like Europe and probably wherever you are from, have the rights to sideline foreign people with their laws tells me that you are infact tolerant of the same bullcrap you are arguing against on this thread.



My point exact, so enjoy.




Good point, so you know we as a society would give anyone a chance if they are good at what they do, as opposed to whining online, why dont you use that as inspiration to show your skills and grab some of that respect you so much crave by "personal merit".

BTW, your assumption that blacks and other ethnic minorities have it better than you also tells me that racism is only a problem when it affects you (selfish). Look, some people in your country that don't even look different from you but happen to fall into some arbitrary ‘caste' cant even raise their heads let alone get a decent job, so don't come up here with this piece of junk thread to educate us about racism and what's fair. I am embarrassed to post on this thread BTW, so enjoy your circus.

 

[rockdascrubs786]

So....I'm a first year osteopathic medical student that is Pakistani American......OMG I am Pakistani and going to be a DO! That means they are gonna slap me in the face with pork chops everyday and call me a vodoo doctor ahhahahahaha, this thread is a joke and whoever made this should stop crying.....Pakistanis and Indian physicians do very well for themselves and are in every field you can think of.....from family medicine to neurosurgery. I was born and raised in America.....I find those practicing medicine not very likely to subject wanton racism upon desis. If you are getting crap from people, it might be because you are in an unfriendly FMG area (not too many) or cry a lot. THe physicians in my family have never experienced what you are crying about and I'd like to remind you that racism is over b/c President Obama is awesome. To the OP, I strongly suggest Puffs Vicks with lotion tissues as they are great to dab up crocodile tears and clear up your stuffy nose. I know I am clearly out ranked by the number of residents and fellows responding to this pity thread, but I just wanted to give me two cents or two Pakistani rupees lol.

 

[memberkane]

ha, ha !!!! some good comic relief!!

TO everyone: residents, students, attendings and PDs of indian, american, arabian, brazilian, canadian, french-canadian origins - all of you please shower and shave regularly - there is enough stench and stink in the system.

 

[rockdascrubs786]

whoa whoa, who said shaving makes you stink? Its called good hygiene and I suspect that is at the root of your problem. What I said meant to be comical, but don't negate its truth.....you need to stop blaming race for whatever you are going through. Going onto SDN and trying to gather the troops for your cause of feigned racism as a result of your colleagues' disgust of your hygiene is pathetic. I'm pakistani and sure as hell smell good 24/7...rocking a beard makes you look ultra-badass and the ladies love it.

 

[memberkane]

Whoa, whoa,

who the F said that shaving and showering make you stink??? Shaving and showering make you lose the stink from your body. A person must be insane to think otherwise.

Maybe you and your colleagues had issues with your personal hygeine and "good smelling" body but thankfully neither I, nor anybody I know has had such stinky issues.

Can you read or not?? Some loon had stated in the previous posts that IMGs stink and that is why they face prejudice. I was joking about that, not about whatever crap you wrote.

Listen, maybe you are used to bearded men and "good" smelling bodies, but I do not like smelly people - "good smelling" or "bad smelling".

I don't smell, neither have I encountered any American, Indian or IMG/ AMG resident, Attending or student who smells.

This thread is NOT about Dr. Prakash from India or Dr. Ahmad from Pakistan having a bad time, it is about IMGs facing racial and cultural bias.

Real stupid reply camel jockey, maybe that is what you should be...

whoa whoa, who said shaving makes you stink? Its called good hygiene and I suspect that is at the root of your problem. What I said meant to be comical, but don't negate its truth.....you need to stop blaming race for whatever you are going through. Going onto SDN and trying to gather the troops for your cause of feigned racism as a result of your colleagues' disgust of your hygiene is pathetic. I'm pakistani and sure as hell smell good 24/7...rocking a beard makes you look ultra-badass and the ladies love it.

 

[rockdascrubs786]

Be original. Read your post above....questioning my ability to read is pointless in trying to formulate some sort of coherent response. You are a joke. Don't you have better things to do since you are a hot shot resident overcoming the inherent racial hierarchy in the American residency system? I'm sure in India they don't discriminate as subtly as they do here...you are a chump and I owned you. I didn't read the entire thread....just your post. I think you might have some sand in your vagina. hahahahahaha

 

[Indiandok]

member kaneji, why you did not respondz to my post???? i am trying to help you here and help your side. I first said Obama is not black man. I second said that we must bathe and wear fresh scents - deoderents. the Pakistani fellow is now being racistz to us also. we are in no win situation here.

I liked your post and you are speaking truthz. With you we can have an Indian as President of this country<<<<<<<<<<<< I am sorry you got kicked out of your program - this is sad. Surely God will help you find nother position. There was this wagy man posting - he even went to 12 programs before finding jobzzz - keep the peace up ji?????!!!!!!!!!

 

[memberkane]

Ms. Cameljockey,

Your previous post speaks for itself - that you cannot read, or did not read.

It was you who got owned - because YOUR irrelevant answer made you look stupid - nothing that I did. Your reply, which I quote below shows that you are pissed about it - nothing that I can help

And your talk about "good smells" and "badass beards" suggests that you are the one with the Vagina - which is not a bad thing 🙂

Be original. Read your post above....questioning my ability to read is pointless in trying to formulate some sort of coherent response. You are a joke. Don't you have better things to do since you are a hot shot resident overcoming the inherent racial hierarchy in the American residency system? I'm sure in India they don't discriminate as subtly as they do here...you are a chump and I owned you. I didn't read the entire thread....just your post. I think you might have some sand in your vagina. hahahahahaha

 

[memberkane]

Ha, ha. Thank you Indiadok"ji"

My future is bright, and so is yours.

I agree with you, maybe if all of us bathe together - you know the IMGs and the biased PDs, then we could "see" each other's view point clearly and avoid all this bias 🙂

" The program that bathes together, stays together"

I was trying to say the same thing to the Camel jockey, but the camel just won't listen.

By the way, I already have another position, so no worries there.

Ok ji, if you stand for president, i will vote for you. 🙂

member kaneji, why you did not respondz to my post???? i am trying to help you here and help your side. I first said Obama is not black man. I second said that we must bathe and wear fresh scents - deoderents. the Pakistani fellow is now being racistz to us also. we are in no win situation here.

I liked your post and you are speaking truthz. With you we can have an Indian as President of this country<<<<<<<<<<<< I am sorry you got kicked out of your program - this is sad. Surely God will help you find nother position. There was this wagy man posting - he even went to 12 programs before finding jobzzz - keep the peace up ji?????!!!!!!!!!

 

[rockdascrubs786]

Your mother is a *****? what?

 

[rockdascrubs786]

oh so now it makes sense...you were terminated. i wonder if you would have made this thread had you not been canned...anyways, how is your sister doing?

 

[memberkane]

Ha ha....Thankfully I have a position now, dear Camel Jockey.

But I don't have a sister. And I hope yours is doing fine.

Being vulgar will disqualify your SDN membership, so please behave responsibly. There is enough hate around, we don't need to hate each other.

Good luck in your medical/ DO school.

oh so now it makes sense...you were terminated. i wonder if you would have made this thread had you not been canned...anyways, how is your sister doing?

 

[rockdascrubs786]

you still didn't answer my question....would have you made that post had you not been terminated in the first place? Yeah, I don't have a sister myself. Its called an osteopathic medical school, not a DO/medical school. Just wanted to clear that up so you don't look like even more of a maderchode.

 

[superoxide]

I suggest that all further posts by memberkane and Indiandok be ignored and this thread be closed. It has deteriorated to name calling and heated rhetoric.

 

[BlondeDocteur]

To Memberkane: If you have several years of US educational experience (esp in formative high school years) and write colloquial American English as well as you do (seriously, I was struck by your masterful repetition of the word 'dude') then you should well know that most of your compatriots do NOT fit in quite as well. There's a lot of helpful intent in what people are trying to say in re: FMGs conforming to US cultural expectations. The showering business was meant well.

Given the fact that the overwhelming majority of FMGs do, in fact, come from the Indian subcontinent, you might be confusing the "refugee status" of foreigners attempting to train in the US, whose right to stay in the country is dependent on their job and therefore on pleasing their PD, with specific prejudice against Indians/Pakistanis/Bengalis. Just because every incident that you can recall of an FMG getting kicked out happened to involve an Indian/Pakistani resident doesn't mean that those FMGs in particular have it any worse than any other FMGs.

Now, if you wanted to start a discussion about the humane treatment of resident foreigners, that could be interesting... or do you still insist that Indian Subcontinentals are especially singled out?

Honestly, Memberkane, what do you think about this?

 

[memberkane]

I agree with you blondedocteur, that what is needed is a thread for humane and fair treatment of foreign medical graduates, and discussion reg. preventing bias of these especially vulnerable folk.

That is what I intended this thread to actually be, before it got distorted in many ways... especially by some people who did not understand the argument being put forward.

I am, and have been crystal clear in stating my points of view, and any confusion reg. this thread must have emanated from irrelevant posts/ diversons created by people who did not understand the argument. And of course, YOU know that this thread is about residents, not refugees.

Also, it would be a good idea to discuss issues reg. abuse of residents - american as well as foreign.

thank you for bringing back sanity to this thread 🙂, and keep the discussion rolling.

Honestly, Memberkane, what do you think about this?

 

[dragonfly99]

I think this thread needs to be closed, as it's degenerated into a namecalling thread by people making immature, derogatory and threatening comments (including the OP and several others). Also, it appears that at least one account on here is a "fake", as others have mentioned above.

 

[memberkane]

Well said - the below quoted post makes a lot of sense. This is exactly what i am talking about ...

OMG OP, what a subject!? i am a US medical student (class '09) and i do agree that FMG's (especially those born and raised elsewhere) have a harder time joining the system on many levels (beyond tests, grades, or even language barriers). but as you can see from some of the posts, people just don't get it. the thing is, if you have never experienced prejudices or racism first hand then it is easy to dismiss this complaint as a problem for someone else, somewhere else. and that is no excuse to ignore the problem.

maybe what OP is describing sounds more like prejudices or racial insensitivities than blatant racism, but when you get down to it &#8211; that's all just semantics really and doesn't negate what OP is trying to bring to the light here. as others have already stated, the problem is really much bigger than just residency programs in the US. so, it is a lot to try to discuss in this kind of a format.

but to stay on topic, i also agree that it is unfair to slam the entire US system, because every program doesn't operate the same way. but we should all recognize that prejudices and racism exists worldwide (even among people in the same ethnic or racial groups). it's hard to get away from them (prejudices). after all, we are human and our beliefs and habits are shaped by the world around us (MD or not). i'm even stunned by some of the ignorant and culturally insensitive comments posted within this thread among professionals (i won't bother to quote them) &#8211; but where there is ignorance all we can try to do is educate!

i am not telling you all to go out there and be activists (i am not one by any means) but we can start with ourselves by refusing to tolerate prejudices and racism (among your colleagues, social circles, etc). if we look back at history we see that with a focused effort, we can bring about change.

i am sure we can all come up with examples about why OP's original comment is true or not true, but i think that this problem is bigger than our own individual experiences and there is no denying that these types of things happen to someone, somewhere and we shouldn't tolerate it one bit!

i don't know where this particular discussion will end. but honestly, if nothing else, i hope this thread gets us all talking about this issue among our colleagues etc.

------------------------
My Friends... "We cannot forever hide the truth about ourselves, from ourselves." John McCain

 

[jbp100]

I dare you to openly discriminate against american blacks today if you can- they will kick your a**.

Isn't this comment essentially racist and stereotypical in and of itself? 😕

 

[memberkane]

No sir,

Because I was replying to the context of a post from someone who basically stated that , there was no racism at this program because blacks were apparently not being discriminated there.

For example: A person may be racist towards say jews, but may not be racist towards blacks or asians - this does not mean that he is not a racist (he is being racist towards jews). Thats the point.

This person (whose post I was replying to) was suggesting that people like him are being patronisingly "nice" to blacks - as if out of pity or sympathy.

As you know, no race (blacks, browns, whites) will tolerate discrimination indefinetely, and will fight back if tormented - this is what i meant.

Isn't this comment essentially racist and stereotypical in and of itself? 😕

 

[rockdascrubs786]

No one cares about this stupid topic. Your experiences are that.... simply your own experiences. The vast majority of FMGs from the subcontinent do not experience this sort of supposed racism. Oh yeah, your private message about your bragging about having a residency is REALLY COOL. You should brag about how you are an inept jackass that cries racism and makes the rest of us have to clean up your mess. You are simply bitching and moaning because your choot is really sore and you are a banchode.

 

[dragonfly99]

Memberkane,
I just want to point out that Jewish is a religion, not a race.

Also, r.e. the post above mine...please, let's keep this discussion on a civil level. I'm not even sure what that insult means, but I'm sure it's a personal attack...

 

[superoxide]

Dragonfly99,

As I have suggested before this thread should be closed. The attacks by cameljockey786 against memberkane are indeed personal, vulgar and highly insulting.

 

[dragonfly99]

superoxide,
I agree with you and have said as much.
However, I do not have the power to close any threads.I am NOT a moderator.

I was asked to be an assistant moderator, and I said OK. I get nothing for this - it's strictly volunteer. I was asked to redirect any discussions that got too disrespectful, which I try to do on here.

 

[chocomorsel]

I don't agree with most of the OP's statements but he was right about this. I feel it is at a minimum disrespectful if pressed I would vote for derogatory. If you're not sure then next time you meet someone from the Indian subcontinent ask them if they're a Paki or Dot-Indian and see their reaction.

Gonna have to agree with you on this one. I have spoken to a few pakistani who states that the term "paki" was used in their region in a derogatory manner to put them down. And McGillGrad if you mean "dot-Indian" as Indians who put the red dots on their foreheads for cultural or religious reasons, then you have to be a complete ignorant ass as to not imagine how this could be derogatory. Seriously, step back and check yourself.

 

[superoxide]

superoxide,
I agree with you and have said as much.
However, I do not have the power to close any threads.I am NOT a moderator.

I was asked to be an assistant moderator, and I said OK. I get nothing for this - it's strictly volunteer. I was asked to redirect any discussions that got too disrespectful, which I try to do on here.

Sorry. I was under the impression that even as an assistant moderator you could close threads.

 

[cali-ob]

I don't know if this thread will ultimately be closed because of the horrendous turn it's taken, but I guess I'll chime in for now.

1. OP- I am at a program with mostly FMGs as classmates. I will say that I have some classmates that have been here (US) longer seem to have adapted quite well, and overall seem to be decent residents. The majority of my classmates struggle quite a bit and as a result, the whole hospital here, has a general perception of my program as not so competent. Some of it is probably bias against people with accents (not brown skin). I will say these things...they make a lot of mistakes, many of which are not serious, but still reflects on their competency level.
My classmates have difficulties with cultural assimilation issues such as have already been brought up, perhaps that they (and perhaps you) are not even aware of that makes life/residency harder for them. I have no doubt that they are smart individuals, as I have spoken with them and work with them, but being a good intern has a lot more to do with your ability to get things done, being organized and just knowing the system, than medical knowledge. Obviously you cannot be a complete idiot, but with time and reading, medical knowledge can come. If you are struggling because you don't get the system, and there are cultural norms that you don't understand that can really hold you back.
I agree, there are programs that will abuse FMG's and probably have no intention in the first place of really turning them into trained physicians, who fire at will. And all I can say in that regard is to try to do your due dilligence in researching a program. I think a lot of FMG's have a "beggers can't be choosers" type of attitude and that leads to a lot of abuse.
However, it is ENTIRELY possible that those six, weren't up to par. We get a lot of observers here because my program is FMG friendly, and many (most) are completely not up to par. We expect people (US in general I think) to be assertive, take initiative, speak up, be confident etc. I can understand that it might be hard to know your place as a FMG observer but unfortunately the system isn't sympathetic to your learning curve. You just have to get it.
Lastly to OP, if you think African Americans (yes we call ourselves that even though most of us have never even been to Africa, so I think you could lay off the "Indian American argument...wagy is within his/her rights to that title) aren't discriminated against in residency, or that racism is over for US Blacks because of Obama wake up...have u seen the NY post? Head on over to the underrep minority forum..they'll set you straight with a few personal and pointed examples.
2. Wagy- I think the experience a US born Indian American has in residency is completely different from that of an Indian born FMG. we have plenty of both here at my hospital and I can tell you that the percpetion of these two groups is quite different. But I agree with some of your other statements. You seem to want to distance yourself from the OP and people like him, I don't think you have to worry about that, but I get it as a AA person.
3. camel doc (or whatever)- to participate in a grown up conversation, you should act like one. Stop being so inflammatory. You and (and those who respond to you in kind) are ruining the discussion for those of us interested in talking about it. I'm disappointed in your behavior as a future provider of health care in this country.

 

[tiredmd]

I think most of those posting to this thread need a better troll-meter...

 

[Winged Scapula]

Since the participants in this thread have ignored repeated warnings from staff, it will be closed per request.