Radiology exams

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Im glad we dont have anything like that in pathology
 
i got my MD 35 years ago and this has gone on since time immemorial with everyone I have ever discussed the topic with ( but that has probably been 25 years).
 
Surgery boards are even more of a farce. The oral portion has only 100 or so case scenarios and the questioner has some lattitude to improvise the course of the case but the examinees know what the potential scenarios are.
 
Not to mention, recalls are already illegal in pathology according to the ABP. However, every single program as a big "book" of board recalls that senior residents study and then contribute to after they take the test. In fact, if you are at a program that doesn't have this then you are at a disadvantage taking the boards since most of the other test takers there already know a certain portion of the questions. The thing is, though, this portion of the questions is small (maybe 2-3 questions per part of the test) so it probably doesn't make that big of a difference in the end anyway.

But think about it. There is no way to police this. Particularly when other programs are definitely using them, why would a program director put his/her residents at a disadvantage by trying to eliminate them? You just turn a blind eye and have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy in regards to residents and board recalls.
 
Typical CNN garbage. Get people worked up about something that has went on forever.

They actually had an article a few weeks ago about GPs and Internal medicine docs shutting down their practices. I think you were suppose to feel sorry for the physicians profiled in the article. It was obvious the docs had NO CLUE how to run a business and caused it to fail themselves. If those docs think they have it hard, trying being a pathologist.

Made me glad to see Newt call CNN out the other night in the debate.

Newt for president in 2012!
 
2121115 said:
Not to mention, recalls are already illegal in pathology according to the ABP. However, every single program as a big "book" of board recalls that senior residents study and then contribute to after they take the test. In fact, if you are at a program that doesn't have this then you are at a disadvantage taking the boards since most of the other test takers there already know a certain portion of the questions. The thing is, though, this portion of the questions is small (maybe 2-3 questions per part of the test) so it probably doesn't make that big of a difference in the end anyway.

But think about it. There is no way to police this. Particularly when other programs are definitely using them, why would a program director put his/her residents at a disadvantage by trying to eliminate them? You just turn a blind eye and have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy in regards to residents and board recalls.
Click to expand...

People still fail and the exams are still a bit away from easy (although if you study it really is just a bit away). The recalls I've seen were always of the type 'know this association', 'know this translocation', 'there was a question about the ddx of "x"'. . . etc. You still have to study, and at least from the piles and piles of board remembrances I used there were plenty of new questions or phrasing of questions on the remembrances that were different enough that it was still a test knowledge and studying. <O😛</O😛
<O😛</O😛

I think they should remain officially illegal or else we would be pushing the envelope of these things to actually trying to write down the actual questions in an organized systematic way within programs. That would recall, I think, compromise the integrity of the test. Just having bullet points of what they asked about and what esoteric nincompoopery they tend to repeat year after year doesn't really do that. Plus the pictures still suck, the slides still rely on you actually looking at them and getting to the diagnosis and there aren't any consequences for failing anyway. If there weren't board recalls, more people would just register, fail intentionally, and use the experience to guide study. (hopefully no one on the ABP is reading this or their computer just shorted from the drool of that possible windfall for them).
And do most PD's really turn a blind eye to this? Mine knew where they were, how to get them, and warned me not to use them exclusively to study with. <O😛</O😛
 
BrainPathology said:
And do most PD's really turn a blind eye to this? Mine knew where they were, how to get them, and warned me not to use them exclusively to study with. <o>😛</o>😛
Click to expand...


Wow, your PD endorsed cheating on the ABP board exams? Better not tell anyone who your PD is. 🙂
 
WEBB PINKERTON said:
Typical CNN garbage. Get people worked up about something that has went on forever.

They actually had an article a few weeks ago about GPs and Internal medicine docs shutting down their practices. I think you were suppose to feel sorry for the physicians profiled in the article. It was obvious the docs had NO CLUE how to run a business and caused it to fail themselves. If those docs think they have it hard, trying being a pathologist.

Made me glad to see Newt call CNN out the other night in the debate.

Newt for president in 2012!
Click to expand...

I'm probably going to regret getting this thing going in a political direction, but do we really want to live in a country where Newt Gingrich is president?
 
2121115 said:
Not to mention, recalls are already illegal in pathology according to the ABP. However, every single program as a big "book" of board recalls that senior residents study and then contribute to after they take the test. In fact, if you are at a program that doesn't have this then you are at a disadvantage taking the boards since most of the other test takers there already know a certain portion of the questions. The thing is, though, this portion of the questions is small (maybe 2-3 questions per part of the test) so it probably doesn't make that big of a difference in the end anyway.

But think about it. There is no way to police this. Particularly when other programs are definitely using them, why would a program director put his/her residents at a disadvantage by trying to eliminate them? You just turn a blind eye and have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy in regards to residents and board recalls.
Click to expand...

... And how may I aquire said "book?" I haven't seen one around these parts.
 
In reaction to this article I've been specifically instructed to scrub our internal resources of questionable material by the PD (which I've done).
 
gbwillner said:
... And how may I aquire said "book?" I haven't seen one around these parts.
Click to expand...


Acquire it by getting 5-6 years worth of 4th year residents to contribute to it the week after they get back from the boards.
 
mlw03 said:
I'm probably going to regret getting this thing going in a political direction, but do we really want to live in a country where Newt Gingrich is president?
Click to expand...


You could say that about any of the candidates, and from both parties. Many people might say that they do not want "to live in a country where Obama is president. It's all a matter of opinion.
 
2121115 said:
Wow, your PD endorsed cheating on the ABP board exams? Better not tell anyone who your PD is. 🙂
Click to expand...

Oh please.. every PD I've trained with said the right thing "this is illegal officially, these don't exist officially, however, go speak to "X" and he'll give you some good strategies for studying." Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, etc.

However, this report will probably make studying through remembrances even more taboo and probably change this in some places.
 
TMZ2007 said:
In reaction to this article I've been specifically instructed to scrub our internal resources of questionable material by the PD (which I've done).
Click to expand...

Seriously? that's gonna put the residents at your program at a disadvantage if they can't get them from other sources. there were a few questions i probably got right because a rememberance made me study a topic i otherwise would not have because it was too zebra-ish.
 
The truth is the most effective way to study for these incredibly hard board exams is to understand what kinds of questions they ask and what they care about. Nobody tells you these things. I remember my first RISE I took, there was a question on neurofibromas and I had just done a presentation and looked everything up and knew everything about it. I had no idea how to answer the question. It's like med school - my first test in med school on embryology I got a 25% on. Then I realized that there were practice questions from old exams that we were allowed to use. Next test I got a 90%. I did not get smarter. Nor did I cheat. The questions were specifically written knowing that students had access to practice questions and old retired questions.

Are you telling me the radiology and pathology boards question writers don't know this?

The most awesome thing about that article is the picture of that smug asswipe who thinks he is doing the world a favor by "blowing the whistle" on what he styles as some massive cheating scandal. What a douche. I mean for crying out loud, using textbooks is almost cheating if using recall questions is cheating. Change the damn questions! Classic case of blaming everyone else but yourself for your failings.
 
lipomas said:
..snip..
It's like med school - my first test in med school on embryology I got a 25% on. Then I realized that there were practice questions from old exams that we were allowed to use. Next test I got a 90%. I did not get smarter. Nor did I cheat.
..snip..
Click to expand...

👍

Tests don't usually test what they claim to test. They simply test your ability to figure out how to pass. Sometimes classes/lectures/textbooks/on-the-job-experience readily provide the means to pass. Sometimes they don't. And sometimes tests and test takers become so set in a certain mode of "test style & difficulty" vs "study sources & methodology" that if one of them strays from the norm the whole thing goes up in a chaotic puff of smoke (i.e., suddenly everyone fails even though they're just as prepared as the last 10 years of test takers, or everyone passes, or whatever).

I don't know if remembrances or stealing old questions or whatever is a problem. But I do think that if an -entirely- new test is abruptly formulated or resident study materials are dramatically eliminated or altered, then the validity of the next test's results becomes exceedingly questionable as compared to that of previous years which were handled in a more stable fashion. Test styles and content develop slowly over years and years -- as does their statistical validity. Solely because someone says the long-term -norm- for, say, radiology, is breaking the rules doesn't mean the results were invalid.
 
lipomas said:
The truth is the most effective way to study for these incredibly hard board exams is to understand what kinds of questions they ask and what they care about. Nobody tells you these things...
Click to expand...

As someone who is about to start studying for the AP boards, I would love to know what you think are the "kinds of questions they ask and what they care about."
 
of course this all happened after he failed the physics exam and:

"Meanwhile, Webb has had his own problems with the Army. He was reprimanded last year for making "sexual comments" to another doctor and for "other conduct unbecoming an officer." That led to his firing from the radiology program."

So he complains to CNN after his failure and his sexual harassment issues.
 
moodydoc said:
of course this all happened after he failed the physics exam and:

"Meanwhile, Webb has had his own problems with the Army. He was reprimanded last year for making "sexual comments" to another doctor and for "other conduct unbecoming an officer." That led to his firing from the radiology program."

So he complains to CNN after his failure and his sexual harassment issues.
Click to expand...

lol, what a moral upstanding gentlemen. I'm sure it was all a misunderstanding! At least he didn't "cheat" on his radiology exam!
 
Even with remembrances, I notice that people still fail the ABP exams, and the people who fail were usually disasters as residents too. This is a clue that the exam still has some validity. And repeaters tend to fail again, even though they ought to be studying their tails off (and should be super motivated to dig up remembrances if they are such a shortcut to success).

BTW, the entire test prep industry is based on remembrances and they seem to be going strong, although I know the College Board, AAMC, etc., have done their best to blast them out of existence. Anyone have a lawyer friend they can ask?--Is it just unenforceable to prohibit test-takers from talking about the exam?
 
Ombret said:
Even with remembrances, I notice that people still fail the ABP exams, and the people who fail were usually disasters as residents too. This is a clue that the exam still has some validity. And repeaters tend to fail again, even though they ought to be studying their tails off (and should be super motivated to dig up remembrances if they are such a shortcut to success).

BTW, the entire test prep industry is based on remembrances and they seem to be going strong, although I know the College Board, AAMC, etc., have done their best to blast them out of existence. Anyone have a lawyer friend they can ask?--Is it just unenforceable to prohibit test-takers from talking about the exam?
Click to expand...

i suppose if you sign a written pledge not to do so ( which i think they probably make people do but it has been decades for me and i don't recall with certainty) like a non-disclosure in a lawsuit settlement it would be actionable but i don't know how they would enforce it unless you really blatently brought attention to yourself as a violator.
 
I've seen bunches of them with titles that include the resident's name that made them lol
 
Oh no! Not dermatologists?!

http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/03/health/doctor-cheating-dermatology/index.html


Still, I wish these cracker-jack "journalists" would mention the dollar amounts involved in "certification" and that the ABMS members crying foul are just trying to protect their turf and revenue stream. And unless they are selling the questions or they start their own certifying body and offer an exam based on those questions, how exactly are these doctors in violation of copyright law?
 
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omg its only a matter of time friends -- who's going ot be the whistleblower for path?
 
Neopath said:
omg its only a matter of time friends -- who's going ot be the whistleblower for path?
Click to expand...

I'm surprised it hasn't happened already. All these unemployed/underemployed pathologists who perhaps didn't pass their boards on their first attempt...
 
The derm and rad issues seem to take it to another level, with the accusation of an organized effort to reproduce exact questions and answer choices. As I argued in another thread, I think there's a big distinction between this and what often happens in path, ie "small round blue cell tumor in a 6 year old" or "viral cytopathic changes in a pap smear". If the kind of organized cheating the CNN articles describe is ocurring in pathology, I've not seen or heard about it.
 
mlw03 said:
The derm and rad issues seem to take it to another level, with the accusation of an organized effort to reproduce exact questions and answer choices. As I argued in another thread, I think there's a big distinction between this and what often happens in path, ie "small round blue cell tumor in a 6 year old" or "viral cytopathic changes in a pap smear". If the kind of organized cheating the CNN articles describe is ocurring in pathology, I've not seen or heard about it.
Click to expand...


That kind of thing is DEFINITELY taking place on the RISE exam in some (if not many) programs.
 
gbwillner said:
As someone who is about to start studying for the AP boards, I would love to know what you think are the "kinds of questions they ask and what they care about."
Click to expand...

There's something like 3 cases maybe nationwide of gonadoblastoma per year yet inevitably the boards will test something on it. Its dumb **** like this that drives remembrances. At $1800 per test + hotel +airfare theres too much at stake not to take whatever advantage you can get. Cheating would be confiding to "pick C on #16". Sharing a headsup on what assanine minutia topic they harp on is strategy not cheating.
 
2121115 said:
That kind of thing is DEFINITELY taking place on the RISE exam in some (if not many) programs.
Click to expand...

To me that's silly. The RISE doesn't count and it doesn't cost the resident anything. Why cheat on your chance to guage for free where you stand compared to your colleagues? Part of the reason I wasn't too freaked going into boards was that I was above the 50% percentile on the RISE, and know the pass rate is usually 70-80% for first time test takers.

Agree with sirenomelia about testing some zebras. The counterargument to that is that if they weren't tested, would anyone even bother to look at them in a textbook?
 
mlw03 said:
To me that's silly. The RISE doesn't count and it doesn't cost the resident anything. Why cheat on your chance to guage for free where you stand compared to your colleagues? Part of the reason I wasn't too freaked going into boards was that I was above the 50% percentile on the RISE, and know the pass rate is usually 70-80% for first time test takers.
Click to expand...

But it does count. There are a few programs that use the RISE to decide on promotion from year to year. There are many programs that give internal demerits for not reaching certain pre-set percentiles (i.e. "remediation" if you are below X percentile - I'll leave it to you to figure out how they get remediated, but it isn't pretty or private). In several programs that I know of personally, RISE scores are available to other residents to see where they stack up with their peers (i.e. motivation by peer embarrassment).
 
It's also been talked about that some programs take the RISE as a group, chit chat about it during the exam, and can take books in. As long as you finish in time, it's fair game. Even the ASCP says the results shouldn't be taken too seriously, although it throws in the word "sole" as an out which lets programs evidently do as they please -- at least, as far as I know nobody has tried suing for inappropriate use of RISE results. From the ASCP website:
"RISE results should not be used as the sole criterion on which performance, promotion, or advancement is based."

However, I didn't see anywhere on a quick look that taking it as an open-book, open-room exam was "prohibited" or even discouraged, but that wording may only be shown when one actually takes the exam.
 
A pretty good article overall, although the bias/emotion of the author (a physician) becomes more apparent towards the end -- which is a little unfortunate because the rest of the message I think is good. My favorite paragraph includes these lines:

"Most boards also began grading "on the curve"; failing a percentage of examinees with the lowest test scores regardless of whether the content they missed was critical to the practice of safe, high-quality medicine. "Recall" and "airplane notes" developed in direct response to these "fail somebody" policies."
 
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