Radiology: The Best Gig In ALL of Medicine

[JPevzner]

I've been doing some research on medical specialties and it seems that radiology is the KING of the all! According to various threads in the allo forums, Rad makes 500k+, working <40hrs/week, simply reading slides! The attendings claim that they have ultimate job flexibility and can work from anywhere and during whatever hours they desire. If this is true, it means that rads have much better pay/hour that dentists. Seems too good to be true...

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[Extirpator]

what's your point?

 

[denner]

Double post....damn interwebs

 

[denner]

I've been doing some research on medical specialties and it seems that radiology is the KING of the all! According to various threads in the allo forums, Rad makes 500k+, working <40hrs/week, simply reading slides! The attendings claim that they have ultimate job flexibility and can work from anywhere and during whatever hours they desire. If this is true, it means that rads have much better pay/hour that dentists. Seems too good to be true...

In response to the bolded above...
-some, not all. Probably half or less since I think the average is somewhere in the 300-500 range. Of course, that's after a 5 year residency getting paid peanuts
-few
-slides? that's pathology. And by the way, radiology is really hard to get into, there are no guarantees in the match.

-to an extent, yes. However, that could become a problem if politicians decide to allow foreign certified radiologists to do reads for US hospitals. Right now I believe that even the "nighthawk" services require US-residency trained radiologists to do those reads, but I could see how that could change very quickly if there was enough political will.

And yes, it is the best gig in medicine, however, the nerf hammer is coming for radiology just like it's coming for all the more lucrative specialites in this new healthcare bill and while it will still be the best gig, it will chip away at it a little bit with some of the decent sized cuts coming their way.

Radiology is a great field, I'm not knocking it (so don't flame me pre-meds/med/residents/attendings!) I was just trying to give readers some perspective to contrast with the OP coming in here talking about radiology like the holy grail of healthcare that's so easy to get into and be.

I really liked radiology when I was pre-med.

what's your point?

Yes, I would like to know this as well.

 

[TJNova2011]

There's a risk with radiology. It isn't as cushy as you may think, especially with interventional radiology.

I believe Obama is attempting to cut radiologists pay by 20%. I cannot find that article at the moment.

 

[JPevzner]

what's my point? I just wanted to state that there are some jobs in medicine that pay more and have cushy jobs just like in dentistry. Radiology seems like the bees knees to me from all i have read about it. Insanely competitive though.

 

[Aceofspades]

There are many careers that have a higher pay per hour than dentistry, both general and specialized. A lot of them are medical specialties, and that is not just limited to radiology. Although radiology is 5 years post med school, the dental specialties are anywhere from 2 - 6 years post dental school. With a 2 yr specialty you have 3 earning years over the radiologist, but with the 6 year OMFS you actually lose 1 earning year in addition to having to pay for 2 years of medical school tuition on top of your 4 years of dental school tuition.

Medical residents also get paid a small stipend whereas most dental residencies require you to pay tuition. Also, medical school is cheaper than dental school and a lot of scholarships are available in medicine whereas few exist in dentistry.

Dentistry is a good deal, but certainly not the best on the block.

 

[Masseter]

So that should make me want to be a radiologist?

I don't care about it.

 

[armorshell]

Before you guys freak out, why not check out what your average radiologist pays per year in malpractice.

 

[TJNova2011]

Before you guys freak out, why not check out what your average radiologist pays per year in malpractice.

I was waiting for this 😀

 

[JPevzner]

Before you guys freak out, why not check out what your average radiologist pays per year in malpractice.

care to enlighten us armorshell? On the allo forums claims of radiologists making 800k net, working sub-40hr work weeks are widespread. Please call B.S on this.

 

[gary_ruska]

care to enlighten us armorshell? On the allo forums claims of radiologists making 800k net, working sub-40hr work weeks are widespread. Please call B.S on this.

Gary "Too Many Head CTs Will Fry Your Brain" Ruska here,

There's little to no evidence to support any of the above conclusions, so take them with a grain of salt. Med students (and even residents) often have absolutely no ability to distinguish between actual data and anecdotal evidence.

For example, there are at least two OMFS that GR knows personally who take home > $1M annually. Does this mean that all OMFS make this much? Absolutely not.

GR works in a major academic center, a tertiary care facility that is listed as a Level 1 Trauma center. GR knows of no single radiologist in the hospital who works sub-40 hours/week. GR asked a radiology buddy at said hospital about the average work week and was told it was closer to 50-55 hours.

According to the American College of Radiologists (http://www.acr.org/SecondaryMainMenuCategories/SocioeconomicResearch/compensation.aspx), there is no standardized methodology for compiling income data for Radiologists, as there is for dentists via the ADA. Therefore, comparisons between dental specialists and radiologists are subject to severe limitations, based on the accuracy of data from salary surveys without consistent methodology (i.e. do you only include private practitioners? only include salaried employees?).

To make any valid comparison between the largest sample of data regarding dentist compensation (from the ADA, which reports only for dentists in private practice - the vast majority of whom are not salaried employeeS) and radiologist income, one would have to find a similar sample of radiologists (to say nothing of stratifying by subspecialty).

Here's what is freely available:

1. From Merritt-Hawkins, a physician income survey firm, looking at base salaries for radiologists in private practice, the range in 2007-2008 was from $230,000 - $750,000, with a mean of $401,000. [Note: Perhaps everyone on the allopathic forums knows the radiologist with the $750,000 base pay.]

2. From the MGMA 2009 Survey of Physician Compensation, median income:

Interventional Radiologist: $478,000
Diagnostic Radiologist: $438,115

Neither of these resouces provide information on the number of hours worked.

These numbers represent take home pay (i.e. after covering overhead like malpractice insurance), so the cost of insurance is not relevant.

So, we can make the following conclusions, based on these limited data:
1. Radiologists make in the neighborhood of $420,000 annually for working an unknown number of hours per week (though anecdotal evidence suggests that it is not < 40).
2. Pay for radiologists is higher with additional training (i.e. interventionalists make more than diagnostic radiologists).
3. Radiologists, on average, make more than almost all dentists, with the exception of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons, whose income is within the same range (ADA mean is ~$415,000 from 2006).
4. No comparisons can be made with regard to hourly income, since data are not readily available regarding radiologist work hours.
5. Everyone here will do very well relative to the average US worker (mean income in 2008 ~$42,000), even after accounting for the opportunity cost of additional education and training.

Radiologists are extremely smart, talented individuals who have embraced technological advances in a way unparalleled by any other specialty. They are incredibly valuable in the inpatient and outpatient setting, for all types of physicians. Regardless of malpractice insurance, etc., the radiologist carries an enormous burden for making certain that their diagnosis is supported by the imaging and that nothing is overlooked. Any physician or dentist who has worked in a hospital will confirm that life-and-death situations are often revealed by a talented radiologist and, conversely, radiologists often reassure other clinicians that potentially worrisome presentations may not be as severe.

Radiologists sometimes get a bad rap because they "don't see patients" or "don't do medicine". This is total garbage. Radiologists are paid well because they provide a critical service and do so efficiently, safely and accurately.

GR

 

[JPevzner]

Thanks for clarifying, Gary! You certainly know more about medicine than anyone I've ever spoken to. Very helpful info indeed.

 

[Aceofspades]

3. Radiologists, on average, make more than almost all dentists, with the exception of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons, whose income is within the same range (ADA mean is ~$415,000 from 2006)

Are you sure this is correct? The averages I see quoted have a wild range, but I have never it seen it that high.

Edit:
And everyone on SDN keeps quoting the belief that dentists (including specialists) work 40 or less hours per week making the quoted salaries. I'm not exactly sure how true that is.

 

[gary_ruska]

Are you sure this is correct? The averages I see quoted have a wild range, but I have never it seen it that high.

Edit:
And everyone on SDN keeps quoting the belief that dentists (including specialists) work 40 or less hours per week making the quoted salaries. I'm not exactly sure how true that is.

Gary "7 of Clubs" Ruska here,

One reason for the wide range on mean incomes is that people often don't specify where the numbers come from. For example, the US Bureau of Labor Statistics annually publishes mean incomes for dentists that are significantly less than those reported by the ADA. Why? Because the BLS uses salaried dentists (academic faculty, dentists who work for the government or are salaried non-owner associates) as their source and also because dentists who are owners and pay themselves a salary tend to pay themselves less as part of a tax-advantage for their business.

Here are the BLS numbers for this year (www.bls.gov):

Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons: $190,420
Orthodontists: $194,930
General Dentists: $154,270
Prosthodontists:$168,810
*Data not available for pediatric dentists, periodontists and endodontists

For comparison, here are the available data for Physicians (which, incidentally is cited on the BLS page as being from MGMA, which gives physician salaries from private practice):
Anesthesiology: $321,686
Surgery, General: $282,504
Obstetrics/gynecology: $247,348
Psychiatry: $180,000
Internal medicine: $166,420
Pediatrics: $161,331
Family practice (without obstetrics): $156,010

You'll note that the physician incomes are significantly higher. Why? These are largely private practice incomes, since the data are not from BLS (they even say so on the website), but from MGMA. 90% of dentists still adhere to the independent practitioner model, and thus the BLS numbers likely under-report income for dentists. One quick check is to see the discrepancy between the number of practitioners reported by the BLS and those reported by the ADA. For example, the BLS says that income data comes from 4,760 Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons, though the ADA reports that there are almost twice that many OMFS practicing). This is why most people use the ADA numbers rather than the BLS numbers when looking at dental income.

The numbers from the ADA report are as follows:

In 2006, the mean income for oral and maxillofacial surgeons in private practice who worked full-time (> 40 hours/week) was:

Incorporated: $438,010 (average work week 41.2 hours)
All Independent: $408,570 (average work week 41.3 hours)

Most people are incorrect in assuming that dentists and dental specialists work much less than 40 hours/week.

From the same series (2006 Income from Private Practice of Dentistry, (c) ADA), here are the average number of hours worked and annual incomes for independent private practitioners:

General Dentist: 40.3 hours/week, annual income = $210,280
Prosthodontist: 41.1 hours/week, annual income = $212,360
Periodontist: 38.7 hours/week, annual income = $285,050
Orthodontist: 38.1 hours/week, annual income = $309,970
Pediatric Dentist: 38.3 hours/week, annual income = $375,370
Endodontist: 38.4 hours/week, annual income = $389,210
Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon: 41.3 hours/week, annual income = $408,570

For what its worth, nobody really cares about these numbers. Dentistry is one of the few remaining health care disciplines where how much you make is as much about your business acumen as it is your technical skill. This may also be a reason for wide variability in reported income: some people are good with their hands, except when those hands have money in them.

 

[dentalWorks]

yes radiologists make a pretty nice income, but do you have ANY idea how hard it is to get into radiology? Its probably just as hard as getting into a dental ortho

-4 years medical school (check)
-study your butt off during those 4 years cause u have to be top of your class (check)
-MUST ace USMLE step 1 (check)

*easy part is done*

-4-5 years of residency, making close to $15 an hour, but dun worry, you work A LOT of hours, so you rack up a fat check (60 hrs +)

*congradulations, 8-9 years of hell for a job that basically all you do is look at black and white pictures of human skeletons and MAKE SURE you don't mislook any minor detail*

 

[gary_ruska]

*congradulations, 8-9 years of hell for a job that basically all you do is look at black and white pictures of human skeletons and MAKE SURE you don't mislook any minor detail*

Gary "It's not so black and white" Ruska here,

GR is not sure which radiologists you've seen, but your description of their job is lacking in some very significant areas.

Radiologists do not just look at black and white pictures of human skeletons (unless, perhaps you are from the 1970s and have somehow, via the magic of time travel, ended up here). They also look at soft tissues and vascular structures, dynamic images in the human body (blood flow, metabolic changes like glucose uptake or lactate production, real-time lung capacity changes with respiration) and, to an increasing extent, perform interventions such as biopsies, stenting and embolization.

While you are correct in saying that it is difficult to become a radiologist, it is somewhat disrespectful to describe their jobs as you have above. That would be akin to saying "dentists get paid a lot to just put in fillings and make sure the hygienists have cleaned your teeth properly."

GR

 

[denner]

Gary "It's not so black and white" Ruska here,

GR is not sure which radiologists you've seen, but your description of their job is lacking in some very significant areas.

Radiologists do not just look at black and white pictures of human skeletons (unless, perhaps you are from the 1970s and have somehow, via the magic of time travel, ended up here). They also look at soft tissues and vascular structures, dynamic images in the human body (blood flow, metabolic changes like glucose uptake or lactate production, real-time lung capacity changes with respiration) and, to an increasing extent, perform interventions such as biopsies, stenting and embolization.

While you are correct in saying that it is difficult to become a radiologist, it is somewhat disrespectful to describe their jobs as you have above. That would be akin to saying "dentists get paid a lot to just put in fillings and make sure the hygienists have cleaned your teeth properly."

GR

+1

radiology is a very cool field and is what I would have pursued had I ended up attending med school

 

[Taurus]

I'm going into radiology and my fiance is a dentist.

So I see both sides.

I won't argue that radiology is one of the best fields in all of medicine. There are many high paying fields in medicine like cards, GI, plastics, etc, but what makes radiology more appealing than others? It's the hours and the nature of the work. The average workweek during radiology residency is like 50 hours. If you're doing cards or GI, you're putting 80 hours/week (capped at 80) during the 3 year residency and there's no cap during your 3 year fellowship. The heme/onc fellows at my institution put in more than 100 hours/week. The hours as attendings are still better in radiology than other fields. Because we don't follow patients, we can take more vacation time. The radiology salary that gets banded around here includes 2-3 months of vacation. How sweet is that?! Add in the constant walking or standing in medicine or surgery for 10 or more hours, the scut work, the social issues, the paperwork, etc that you have to deal with in medicine or surgery, radiology is the clear winner to me.

Dentistry is an awesome field. It's even better if you do a specialty like ortho or endo. You really can't go wrong with either. However, as others have pointed out, there's no guarantee that you'll match into radiology. But if you go to a decent medical school and do decently well on your USMLE you should be able to match somewhere. It's not as difficult as people paint it to be. If I had to do it all over again, I probably would have gone dentistry. Why? It will take me 10 years to be a radiologist and only 4 years for dentistry. General dentists and specialists don't make radiology money on average, but their training is easier with better hours. I literally worked 36 hours straight from Friday to Saturday. I'm doing a medicine intern year. 30 hours clocked in. Then 6 more hours off the clock to catch up on clinical work. Tell me that it isn't crazy.

 

[tennischamp822]

...

 

[6897round2]

Not sure where everyone is getting the info to support the above claim that radiologists make more than dental specialists. Oral surgeons make as much as radiologists and definitely work fewer hours. Look at the ADA numbers for oral surgeons and look at the MGMA numbers for radiologists (the MGMA numbers for oral surgeons are much more variable, since they only include oral surgeons with the MD degree).

 

[laundry]

woa there...Peds is making more than Ortho? I know that these are just ADA stats..but still....

 

[cwebb4]

General dentists and specialists don't make radiology money on average, but their training is easier with better hours.

Well, I respect your view but dental specialty training is easier than radiology training is wrong in my opinion. Unless you have gone through dental specialty training, you have no idea how the training is even if your wife is a dentist. My good buddy is a radiologist and we often talk about our training years. We respect our trainings and laugh about how grass is greener on the other side. Anyway, good luck on your medical training.

 

[denner]

Well, I respect your view but dental specialty training is easier than radiology training is wrong in my opinion. Unless you have gone through dental specialty training, you have no idea how the training is even if your wife is a dentist. My good buddy is a radiologist and we often talk about our training years. We respect our trainings and laugh about how grass is greener on the other side. Anyway, good luck on your medical training.

The fact that radiology has an intern year (with an additional 4 years of residency), would make their training more difficult than dental specialty training (excluding oral surgery) in most people's eyes I would think.