RadPartners

[NDcienporciento100]

Who on this chat is working for, going to work for, or is thinking about working for RadPartners, envision, Lucid or any private equity group? And why is it appealing to you? Just want your perspective. This compromises a huge subset of radiologist in are country. Many could work other places, but chose to work there. I just want to know your perspective, no judgment.

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[maxxor]

Who on this chat is working for, going to work for, or is thinking about working for RadPartners, envision, Lucid or any private equity group? And why is it appealing to you? Just want your perspective. This compromises a huge subset of radiologist in are country. Many could work other places, but chose to work there. I just want to know your perspective, no judgment.

In my local environment, the private practices are so predatory that if you want to live here and not solely work a tele job, you gotta pick your PE, toxic partners, toxic academics riddled with Huron consultants who hate radiologists, or move.

Thankfully I am perfectly fine doing Teleradiology so I avoid them. For now.

Example: groups are still offering 4+ year tracks. You’d need to be at the group an additional 4-5 years to make up the sweat equity. It’s a phenomenally bad deal compared to the market as a whole, but they all lockstep their tracks so there’s no competition.

 

[guytakingboards]

Who on this chat is working for, going to work for, or is thinking about working for RadPartners, envision, Lucid or any private equity group? And why is it appealing to you? Just want your perspective. This compromises a huge subset of radiologist in are country. Many could work other places, but chose to work there. I just want to know your perspective, no judgment.

As someone who left a PE group and watched people continue to join said group, there's a myriad a reasons. I don't agree with many them but it's undeniable that people continue to join PE groups.

Location: PE snapped up groups in many desirable places and if you are geographically constrained, you may not have many choices. I know the South the best but I'm sure it applies elsewhere. Austin for the most part is a one group town (RP). The major Nashville group (ADI) is also RP. Most of the Houston groups except for the Methodist group are PE of some variety.

Better starting salaries: The PE money has pushed starting salaries into low-400's for people coming out of fellowship. They've gone up a lot faster than starting salaries in true PP groups. PP offers are responding to the market rather than being proactive

Good enough partner salaries: PE salaries can get up into 500k-600k's levels. That's more than acceptable for most people, even if the rads are actually doing $1m worth of work.

Shorter "partner" tracts: I originally signed a 5 year associate workup contract with a true PP that got bought out when I got there. When I left, the tract was down to 2 years.

More "transparency": For the most part, I found PE was a lot more 'what you see is what you get'. PP's vary widely in transparency, most of the time in a not good way.

More flexibility: PE is more willing to let you practice however you want as long as they can take their 30-40% off the top of your efforts. You want pure telerad? Sure. You want per-click only? Sure. A lot of PP's are based on a traditional butts-in-seat model.

Lack of interest in running a business: Some people just want the better than academics/VA paycheck but don't have any interest in running/building a practice.

Lack of understanding of autonomy: Most people, particularly fresh trainees, have only ever practiced in a model where they have almost no autonomy in how they practice. They don't know what the actual benefits are of being their own boss.

TBH, I'm wholly unsurprised that people continue to join PE. PP's haven't been nearly responsive enough to the market on many of the above mentioned things.

 

[guytakingboards]

Oh I also forgot: fancy, meaningless slogans like "Transforming Radiology".

 

[sloh]

Is it still possible to make 800k-1M in rads these days if one is willing to hustle in a desirable location like SoCal? Or very rare

 

[guytakingboards]

Is it still possible to make 800k-1M in rads these days if one is willing to hustle in a desirable location like SoCal? Or very rare

Anyone can make 800k+ if they're willing to read enough studies. I have a friend who reads fully remote, has 3 different gigs and will clear $1m this year. He reads a lot studies though. If you want roughly double the median yearly compensation for rads, expect to do double the RVU's.

As for a traditional PP in Socal, I don't have a ton of info on that market but one friend I know was looking at partner salaries closer to the high 6-low 7 range there. If he were able to moonlight on top of that I could see him getting to the 800's.

In a desirable location, any PP gig with comp near the $1m range likely reads on the higher end of productivity and also has a side gig (e.g. owning imaging centers and collecting the technical fees)

 

[jambro]

In my local environment, the private practices are so predatory that if you want to live here and not solely work a tele job, you gotta pick your PE, toxic partners, toxic academics riddled with Huron consultants who hate radiologists, or move.

Thankfully I am perfectly fine doing Teleradiology so I avoid them. For now.

Example: groups are still offering 4+ year tracks. You’d need to be at the group an additional 4-5 years to make up the sweat equity. It’s a phenomenally bad deal compared to the market as a whole, but they all lockstep their tracks so there’s no competition.

Did you do telerads straight out of training? I know that used to be ill-advised, do you think things are changing at all?

 

[vm26]

Who on this chat is working for, going to work for, or is thinking about working for RadPartners, envision, Lucid or any private equity group? And why is it appealing to you? Just want your perspective. This compromises a huge subset of radiologist in are country. Many could work other places, but chose to work there. I just want to know your perspective, no judgment.

I would guess that the majority going RP/PE (boots on the ground) are geographically limited and likely not the sole bread-winner...Also I would think that a majority now are tele-rads...There's really no good reason to join a RP/PE-their model is based on more "efficiency" (you reading more), along with rads taking a 40-50% pay cut (have to make up for the massive buy-out for legacy partners and also have to pay investors). No real partnership (you will Never have a say how things are run)...Essentially a dead end job which is absurd to take given the current market...Search ACR job ads. Majority are RP/PE positions that have been up for years

 

[guytakingboards]

Private practice is a pyramid scheme. I was staunchly pro-private practice at the outset of my residency, but now that I'm in fellowship and have interviewed at multiple places I can tell you that they'll all give you low ball trash offers for new grads even in undesirable places.

The transparency is minimal. They start you at 300K for 2 year partnership tract if you're lucky, but 3+ years if it's any place worth living, with no say in where or what you'll actually be reading. Neuro fellowship trained? hope you like mammo and driving around 30 min everyday, because we need "team players!"

You want to make good money? Pick an employeed job and moonlight at the side. Every rad I heard killing it was doing something similar.

I think you are a perfect example of what the OP was looking for.

I agree with you that the transparency of PP groups is way limited compared to other jobs. And even somewhat that PP is a pyramid scheme. That being said, these "trash low ball offers" aren't nearly as bad as they seem if you break down the math.

Let's just say generously you plan to stay in place for 10 years.
PE group in a desirable city: lets say they offer you $400k/$425k in your two year "partnership" workup. And then you go to $550k "partner" salary. After 10 years, you've made $5.225m in total salary.
PP group: 3 year workup at $300k/$325k/$350k with 7 years of partner salary at $750k. After 10 years, you've made $6.225m in total salary.

The first offer sounds a lot better upfront. Shorter tract, higher associate salary. The fact is: if you're in it for the long term the 2nd offer is way better financially, not to mention the differences in autonomy.

EDIT* to address what you said about sub-specialization. I'm about 5 years into my career. Neurotrained. I read nearly all sub-spec in my first job. It was certainly adjustment going back to reading general. I still only read neuro MR now, no MSK/Body/Cardiac MR. I read light nucs, no mammo. I prolly do ~50% neuro right now. Would I prefer more? The honest answer is: I don't really care. I read what I read to make my numbers and go home. If it's neuro? Great. If It's CTA chests, CT A/P's and 1st trimester OB: whatever, lemme read it so I can go home. It's just a job.

 

[NDcienporciento100]

Private practice is a pyramid scheme. I was staunchly pro-private practice at the outset of my residency, but now that I'm in fellowship and have interviewed at multiple places I can tell you that they'll all give you low ball trash offers for new grads even in undesirable places.

The transparency is minimal. They start you at 300K for 2 year partnership tract if you're lucky, but 3+ years if it's any place worth living, with no say in where or what you'll actually be reading. Neuro fellowship trained? hope you like mammo and driving around 30 min everyday, because we need "team players!"

You want to make good money? Pick an employeed job and moonlight at the side. Every rad I heard killing it was doing something similar.

This is not accurate in my experience, respectfully. 400-500k minimum as an associate is what I have seen. Many partnerships are at 1 year or 2 years. 3 years is uncommon and beyond that is very uncommon. Again this is my experience shopping around. Buy-in is all over the map. If the group you are applying to owns imaging centers and property to buy, it will be more.

 

[maxxor]

Did you do telerads straight out of training? I know that used to be ill-advised, do you think things are changing at all?

I went into traditional PP (one of those 4 year groups mentioned in my post). They voted to sell to (RP|USRS|pick your PE du jour) and I left rather than accept the noncompete that was coming.

I ended up in academics (on site) then remote at another place. I'm starting to burn out at corporate bureaucracy so will be looking again soon.

 

[maxxor]

This is not accurate in my experience, respectfully. 400-500k minimum as an associate is what I have seen. Many partnerships are at 1 year or 2 years. 3 years is uncommon and beyond that is very uncommon. Again this is my experience shopping around. Buy-in is all over the map. If the group you are applying to owns imaging centers and property to buy, it will be more.

You haven't looked at enough states lol.

In my metro area (defined as a 75 mile radius from the city center)

All groups have 4 year tracks, all start in a 300-345 range, all have a huge risk of selling before you ever make it to partner. A couple of these groups have a reputation for firing associates before they make partner. One group loves to make the associates drive all over creation over a 50+ mile radius.

It's honestly crap and I should move, but family is here, so if remote jobs didn't exist, I would be gone. I'm not in a mountain town nor near the coast. Honestly, I think the private groups are so toxic cuz the majority trained at the local academic place which is toxic as hell.

 

[maxxor]

I think you are a perfect example of what the OP was looking for.

I agree with you that the transparency of PP groups is way limited compared to other jobs. And even somewhat that PP is a pyramid scheme. That being said, these "trash low ball offers" aren't nearly as bad as they seem if you break down the math.

Let's just say generously you plan to stay in place for 10 years.
PE group in a desirable city: lets say they offer you $400k/$425k in your two year "partnership" workup. And then you go to $550k "partner" salary. After 10 years, you've made $5.225m in total salary.
PP group: 3 year workup at $300k/$325k/$350k with 7 years of partner salary at $750k. After 10 years, you've made $6.225m in total salary.

The first offer sounds a lot better upfront. Shorter tract, higher associate salary. The fact is: if you're in it for the long term the 2nd offer is way better financially, not to mention the differences in autonomy.

EDIT* to address what you said about sub-specialization. I'm about 5 years into my career. Neurotrained. I read nearly all sub-spec in my first job. It was certainly adjustment going back to reading general. I still only read neuro MR now, no MSK/Body/Cardiac MR. I read light nucs, no mammo. I prolly do ~50% neuro right now. Would I prefer more? The honest answer is: I don't really care. I read what I read to make my numbers and go home. If it's neuro? Great. If It's CTA chests, CT A/P's and 1st trimester OB: whatever, lemme read it so I can go home. It's just a job.

The big thing here is that partnership is NOT a guarantee and they can sell the place out from under you at any time with no warning. This happened to me and seriously scarred me for several years. If they sell, make sure you read the noncompete carefully, cuz the standard PE noncompete is 5 miles from every site for 2-3 years. That would have blocked me from the entire state I lived in.

People are weighing the likelihood of these places selling out before they make the payoff which makes up for the years of sweat equity and worse shifts/less vacation. Private groups are often run by boomers who are out of touch with the market and obsessed with the "well I suffered in this specific way, so the new people should too".

 

[NDcienporciento100]

You haven't looked at enough states lol.

In my metro area (defined as a 75 mile radius from the city center)

All groups have 4 year tracks, all start in a 300-345 range, all have a huge risk of selling before you ever make it to partner. A couple of these groups have a reputation for firing associates before they make partner. One group loves to make the associates drive all over creation over a 50+ mile radius.

It's honestly crap and I should move, but family is here, so if remote jobs didn't exist, I would be gone. I'm not in a mountain town nor near the coast. Honestly, I think the private groups are so toxic cuz the majority trained at the local academic place which is toxic as hell.

I wonder if this guy sits on the board of directors for RadPartners.

I’ve looked all over the country. That’s just not my experience. I would stress to people reading this to go look for yourself and decide for yourself.

 

[NDcienporciento100]

The big thing here is that partnership is NOT a guarantee and they can sell the place out from under you at any time with no warning. This happened to me and seriously scarred me for several years. If they sell, make sure you read the noncompete carefully, cuz the standard PE noncompete is 5 miles from every site for 2-3 years. That would have blocked me from the entire state I lived in.

People are weighing the likelihood of these places selling out before they make the payoff which makes up for the years of sweat equity and worse shifts/less vacation. Private groups are often run by boomers who are out of touch with the market and obsessed with the "well I suffered in this specific way, so the new people should too".

Well, Noncompetes will be illegal in a few months, so there goes that argument. Newsflash!

Private equity groups have actually stopped buying radiology practices for the last several years. Right now, as it stands, private equity is essentially buying no one. Granted that may change, but radpartners is in a massive amounts of debt.

 

[maxxor]

Well, Noncompetes will be illegal in a few months, so there goes that argument. Newsflash!

Private equity groups have actually stopped buying radiology practices for the last several years. Right now, as it stands, private equity is essentially buying no one. Granted that may change, but radpartners is in a massive amounts of debt.

If Trump wins, all the noncompetes will be back if only because he has to tear down what Biden did.

 

[qxrt]

Is it still possible to make 800k-1M in rads these days if one is willing to hustle in a desirable location like SoCal? Or very rare

I am aware of rads in SoCal making over $1M.

Technically any radiologist anywhere in the US probably could; it's just a matter of how much work you're willing to do. There's too much work to be done.

 

[GadRads]

I know 2 rads who made $1 million last year. But they had to give up some vacation and work a ton. I am actually a bit worried for their health longterm. One of them took a break for 2 months last year because the work was starting to affect him.

 

[guytakingboards]

You haven't looked at enough states lol.

In my metro area (defined as a 75 mile radius from the city center)

All groups have 4 year tracks, all start in a 300-345 range, all have a huge risk of selling before you ever make it to partner. A couple of these groups have a reputation for firing associates before they make partner. One group loves to make the associates drive all over creation over a 50+ mile radius.

It's honestly crap and I should move, but family is here, so if remote jobs didn't exist, I would be gone. I'm not in a mountain town nor near the coast. Honestly, I think the private groups are so toxic cuz the majority trained at the local academic place which is toxic as hell.

4 years is really long in this market. The comp package better be worth it.

Granted this isn't every market, but the job I joined after leaving PE was another PP group with a 2 year partner workup. You might have a really tough job market specifically where you live but I honestly don't think your local market experience is generalize-able to every major market.

Re: the risk of being sold. There have not been many significant PE acquisitions in the last few years since the interest rates went up. I can't think of a big group purchase off the top of my head and I used to keep up with that a lot. Mostly now-a-days the big PE groups are more worried about their own sustainability as their prior low-interest rate loans come due and they have to refinance in the current 6-7% markets. They're not looking to make any big purchases for the most part. I do think the days of the multipliers that rad groups were getting on their revenue (~10x yearly revenue = buyout amount) are mostly gone, which further decreases incentives to sell out.

I literally have a two private practice offers sitting on my desk right now in a midwest state (NOT CHICAGO), both offering 300s to start, one 2 year partnership tract the other 3 year. Not even desirable locations. Meanwhile every employed job around here is offering 500k+ year 1, with PLENTY of moonlighting to get much higher.

Like guytakingboards is suggesting, they get you by phrasing as "long term it's worth it!" They'll cite high partner salaries of 700-800k (after an after-tax buy-in of course). But maxxor is saying, they either sell out right before you make partner or find some other excuse to not make you partner. My academic-lite residency is filled with former PP attendings who got screwed over in some way by their practice.

I don't know if I'll abandon these offers, I still have the rest of my fellowship to decide. But don't be naive, private practice isn't some utopia, there's a reason even hard-working rads take all these employee jobs and keep these practices afloat.

The market is way way different than when your attendings were in PP. My current group (and many other groups) are basically down to recruiting warm bodies. My group isn't cutting anyone loose anyone who isn't super unproductive with the personality of a cow patty. There's a massive rad shortage that exists now that didn't exist when your attendings were in the game.

You keep mentioning internal moonlighting as a boon for an employed gig.... that's also very present in PP gigs everywhere now.

There is absolutely a breakeven point where a true PP will net you more salary than a PE/employed gig. It may be as little as 4-5 years. If you (or anyone) value flexibility and remote, that's fine. But the money is absolutely better in PP long term.

 

[maxxor]

I asked them if I can moonlight, they said not during fellowship and not during the first 6 months of an attending. So no, it's a pyramid scheme. MAYBE if you are in a hard to recruit area like you say, but any PP in a halfway decent area is still giving trash offers.

This echoes my experience as well.

Some areas of the country are just crap. All the practices collude. Everyone offers terrible tracks. This opens an opportunity for RP et al to offer something better than the local fat cats but still less than national market.

Others are much better. But I can tell you the bad offers tend to cluster which sucks if that’s your preferred geography.

 

[NDcienporciento100]

What are these two people talking about!?!?!

I think we have some silent RadPartner board of directors in this chat.

I have had 5 true partner PP job offers in different states this year. The max partnership track was two years on every offer I got. And one was a one-year partnership track offer. This market is insanely good right now and almost every private practice job basically will let you moonlight whenever you want because their volumes are so crazy high.

 

[NDcienporciento100]

If I cared about winning pointless internet arguments I would show you but I don't. Yes, many are two year (usually at crap associate pay) but some are definitely 3+, some literally say it on their acr job post lol. Try applying to Houston Methodist, I hear it's 7 years.

I would also bet hospital employed jobs in your areas of interest are giving better offers

And for the record, I would never join radpartners or any PE backed group.

I never got offered less than 450 starting, with a huge jump after make partner.

 

[maxxor]

I'm really happy for you. But without telling me anything about your location or even region of country (which I provided), then I don't know what to do with that information. And you started this thread looking for other perspectives, and now you're arguing with me and calling me a liar. Lol.

Dude is also IR which may have different terms compared to DR.

 

[maxxor]

https://jobs.acr.org/profile/mecklenburg-radiology-associates/1164972/

There you go bro, every subspecialty including breast 3 year partnership, click the ads and see for yourself. Dude calls me a liar for what is literally common knowledge.

Granted they're offering 400k starting, probably because they're not in the midwest with the same dog**** payor mix of middle america

That’s actually short for North Carolina…tracks are often long there.

 

[NDcienporciento100]

I'm really happy for you. But without telling me anything about your location or even region of country (which I provided), then I don't know what to do with that information. And you started this thread looking for other perspectives, and now you're arguing with me and calling me a liar. Lol.

My perspective that’s all.

 

[NDcienporciento100]

https://jobs.acr.org/profile/mecklenburg-radiology-associates/1164972/

There you go bro, every subspecialty including breast 3 year partnership, click the ads and see for yourself. Dude calls me a liar for what is literally common knowledge.

Granted they're offering 400k starting, probably because they're not in the midwest with the same dog**** payor mix of middle america

This link is to one radiology group!

 

[maxxor]

ITT: “all my job offers are 450k. Why would anyone go to RP?”

Not sure if humble brag or what.

 

[NDcienporciento100]

ITT: “all my job offers are 450k. Why would anyone go to RP?”

Not sure if humble brag or what.

Nope. That’s the average going rate throughout the country. I think from the posts above it sounds like a lot of people are going to Radpartners because of location.

 

[guytakingboards]

I asked them if I can moonlight, they said not during fellowship and not during the first 6 months of an attending. So no, it's a pyramid scheme. MAYBE if you are in a hard to recruit area like you say, but any PP in a halfway decent area is still giving trash offers.

This goes back to transparency, but in general PE offers are more "what you see is what you get" while with PP offer there is a lot more room to negotiate.

This is hard to grasp for newbie rads, but the harder you negotiate with some PP's the more they take you seriously and acquiesce on things.

These PP groups.... they want you. I guarantee you they need the manpower. Especially if its in bumble**** nowhere. If it's in a city with 4 groups offering the same track, you better be leveraging these offers off one another like buying a car from a dealership. Cuz you can get something more from them.

The PP group I joined, I had friends in it. I knew what they had gotten on their out-of-fellowship contracts (and knew it wasn't acceptable to me as a partner in my first group). I went... I interviewed... demonstrated to them my knowledge of being in PP, dropping comments about my known productivity and implying things i could bring to the table and/or make improvements in their group. Basically explaining my value.

They didn't even bother offering me that out-of-fellowship contract (as they shouldn't have). I got a contract offer with much higher starting salary, more vacation, shorter workup tract, less call during workup and a few other perks. Even then I negotiated on a few things (which I ended up getting).

If you're going into this process and thinking these PP offers are all cemented, that's incorrect. I had advised a friend of mine who joined the same group out of fellowship, and he got a better offer than even the other people in his cohort. The group is willing to negotiate.

Back to the original point, if you see some deal breakers in these offers: push back a little and see what happens. Re: internal moonlighting, if you were to say something like "i like the overall package and can see myself fitting in well here, but would really like to be able to moonlight as a fellow"... maybe they go back and discuss it and change their mind on it. I can tell you from experience having been a partner in a group, if that were a candidate's sticking point over joining the group I'd vote to waive that policy if not abolish it. That's how much groups need manpower.

 

[DOFOSHO]

Who on this chat is working for, going to work for, or is thinking about working for RadPartners, envision, Lucid or any private equity group? And why is it appealing to you? Just want your perspective. This compromises a huge subset of radiologist in are country. Many could work other places, but chose to work there. I just want to know your perspective, no judgment.

if you want your hard work and years of sacrifice to make someone else rich, go ahead and join a PE group. Just know that your future earnings have already been captured by the older partners and PE stakeholders and you are essentially paying for their kids' private school, their wives nails and hair, their fancy car, and their early retirement.

 

[NDcienporciento100]

if you want your hard work and years of sacrifice to make someone else rich, go ahead and join a PE group. Just know that your future earnings have already been captured by the older partners and PE stakeholders and you are essentially paying for their kids' private school, their wives nails and hair, their fancy car, and their early retirement.

I agree. But why do you think so many Rads do it?

 

[SeisK]

I agree. But why do you think so many Rads do it?

Because they have desirable markets cornered, and there are often pyramid scheming leeches sitting at the top of traditional rads PPs that can be just as manipulative and deceptive.

RVU based pay also works well for highly reimbursing studies like neuro MR and mammo, where you’re subsidizing someone anyway—either your partners in a traditional practice or shareholders, so why fight it—just go to the desirable market. Maybe makes 5-10% less per RVU than you would in a traditional practice, but you can choose your hours, your work from home percentage, and live wherever you want

 

[NDcienporciento100]

Because they have desirable markets cornered, and there are often pyramid scheming leeches sitting at the top of traditional rads PPs that can be just as manipulative and deceptive.

RVU based pay also works well for highly reimbursing studies like neuro MR and mammo, where you’re subsidizing someone anyway—either your partners in a traditional practice or shareholders, so why fight it—just go to the desirable market. Maybe makes 5-10% less per RVU than you would in a traditional practice, but you can choose your hours, your work from home percentage, and live wherever you want

I feel like on average it is less than 5-10%. I thought it was more like 30% less.

 

[SeisK]

I feel like on average it is less than 5-10%. I thought it was more like 30% less.

Yes they’re taking 30% off the top, but I meant if you’re a neurorads, you’re already losing a lot off the top in a PP rads group anyway, subsidizing your partners. 5-10% MORE than that would be taken off the top if you’re going to PE

 

[vm26]

Yes they’re taking 30% off the top, but I meant if you’re a neurorads, you’re already losing a lot off the top in a PP rads group anyway, subsidizing your partners. 5-10% MORE than that would be taken off the top if you’re going to PE

For many groups its the breast imagers, who work M-F 8-5pm, that are subsiding the group..1.3 wRVU for every tomo screener with breast imagers able to read 80-100/day. No other diagnostic rad is routinely doing 100-130 wRVU/day, even with busy high yield call shifts...Based on what I have heard, PE skim job is around 40%. Apparently many rads are ok with this

 

[maxxor]

For many groups its the breast imagers, who work M-F 8-5pm, that are subsiding the group..1.3 wRVU for every tomo screener with breast imagers able to read 80-100/day. No other diagnostic rad is routinely doing 100-130 wRVU/day, even with busy high yield call shifts...Based on what I have heard, PE skim job is around 40%. Apparently many rads are ok with this

Having gone through a sale myself

RP and USRS will purchase 25-40% of the ongoing revenue stream and turn you into a subsidiary. RP is straight W2 with a 5 year renegotiation. This is why you see a bunch of groups collapse 5 years after sale.

USRS was a bit more cagey about the corporate structure but specifically pointed out they didn’t have the 5 year renegotiation and that you’d still sort of be a partner and can use partnership tax strategies. It’s confusing, I’m sure intentionally so.

With RP, it all depends on how greedy the partners were. I’ve seen some groups that seem to pay pretty well which to me sounds like they didn’t go for 40%.

USRS groups are more varied. It sounds like Charlotte is still a decent job.

We associates argued politely that the partners didn’t need to sell 40% of future revenue forever for “practice management”. Obviously we were overruled with several being fired.

Lmao just writing it out reminds me of what a mess that year of my life was.

 

[vm26]

Having gone through a sale myself

RP and USRS will purchase 25-40% of the ongoing revenue stream and turn you into a subsidiary. RP is straight W2 with a 5 year renegotiation. This is why you see a bunch of groups collapse 5 years after sale.

USRS was a bit more cagey about the corporate structure but specifically pointed out they didn’t have the 5 year renegotiation and that you’d still sort of be a partner and can use partnership tax strategies. It’s confusing, I’m sure intentionally so.

With RP, it all depends on how greedy the partners were. I’ve seen some groups that seem to pay pretty well which to me sounds like they didn’t go for 40%.

USRS groups are more varied. It sounds like Charlotte is still a decent job.

We associates argued politely that the partners didn’t need to sell 40% of future revenue forever for “practice management”. Obviously we were overruled with several being fired.

Lmao just writing it out reminds me of what a mess that year of my life was.

I graduated into an abysmal job market in 2013 and feel your pain (experienced predatory PP which rivals the badness that is PE). I am sure that we are both in much better places in our careers/live's!

 

[LittleFoot]

I graduated into an abysmal job market in 2013 and feel your pain (experienced predatory PP which rivals the badness that is PE). I am sure that we are both in much better places in our careers/live's!

I've heard so much negativity about PE/Corporate lately that predatory PP is not a topic that has come up in my social circle and I'm not sure I understand what it means. Groups with long partnership track and then many mysteriously don't make partner?

 

[MadRadLad]

I've heard so much negativity about PE/Corporate lately that predatory PP is not a topic that has come up in my social circle and I'm not sure I understand what it means. Groups with long partnership track and then many mysteriously don't make partner?

Long track, high buy-in, poor associate pay/benefits, low % of associates made partner, lesser levels of partnership without as much say, etc are all factors that can play into a predatory PP. I think there are legitimate reasons someone may not make partner, maybe due to speed or other issues, but those should be communicated and assessed far in advance of the track ending with a chance for improvement.

 

[vm26]

I've heard so much negativity about PE/Corporate lately that predatory PP is not a topic that has come up in my social circle and I'm not sure I understand what it means. Groups with long partnership track and then many mysteriously don't make partner?

From a career perspective, one can certainly lump predatory PP with PE...One difference, which may or not may be relevant, is that at some point the predatory PP will have to revisit their group culture or otherwise implode (No PE to come in with golden parachutes to save the day), while a PE group will simply lean into their national presence and somehow raise more funny money to keep the same ship sailing. Pick your poison I suppose.

 

[MadRadLad]

From a career perspective, one can certainly lump predatory PP with PE...One difference, which may or not may be relevant, is that at some point the predatory PP will have to revisit their group culture or otherwise implode (No PE to come in with golden parachutes to save the day), while a PE group will simply lean into their national presence and somehow raise more funny money to keep the same ship sailing. Pick your poison I suppose.

While I generally agree, to play devil's advocate given the interest rates going down again...Predatory PP could sell to PE, get the golden parachute for the senior partners, and leave the associates in the dust too.

Although some better run PPs I have seen have causes in their contract thats if they sell, the associates get treated as a partner or still get some benefit of the sale.

 

[vm26]

While I generally agree, to play devil's advocate given the interest rates going down again...Predatory PP could sell to PE, get the golden parachute for the senior partners, and leave the associates in the dust too.

Although some better run PPs I have seen have causes in their contract thats if they sell, the associates get treated as a partner or still get some benefit of the sale.

Anything is possible in this chaotic market.