Rank list-how far down?

[psychmatch]

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What if the PD at my number one spot told me they were ranking me much higher than how far they usually go down to fill? But that I would not match there if they matched just the ranked to match candidates.How often does this happen at small sized programs..does it ever? Or how often do most programs fill within the top ten on the ROL as well say for 4 spots? Thanks.

 

[Law2Doc]

What if the PD at my number one spot told me they were ranking me much higher than how far they usually go down to fill? But that I would not match there if they matched just the ranked to match candidates.How often does this happen at small sized programs..does it ever? Or how often do most programs fill within the top ten on the ROL as well say for 4 spots? Thanks.

If we are talking the allo match, it's pretty rare that they would tell you something like this because most places play closer to the vest for fear of violating the communications rules. But it happens all the time that places end up matching higher or lower than their historical experience. Which is why program match lists will always be longer than they probably need -- they would rather match people lower down on their list than have to face the scramble.

 

[psychmatch]

Hi,thanks for the msg. I guess only if we ask them of they ask us about ranking it is violation of rules,according to NRMP,either party can volunteer information to the other. Sometimes some programs tell people they are ranking them to match and candidates always tell programs if they are their number one choice.
Yeah,we can never tell how far they would go..but how likely that they would fill among the top 5 or top 10?
aPD,any thoughts?

 

[dragonfly99]

OP,
Nobody can tell you for sure.
Just rank all the programs in your order of preference, and tell your #1 program they are your #1, and tell the rest of your top 5 that you are "ranking them very highly". What this program told you is a good prognostic sign, but it's not a guarantee you will match there. Even THEY don't know if you'll match there...lets assume they are being truthful, then I would say you have a high chance to match there if they historically have to go much lower on their list than where you are ranked. However, if this year everybody and their mother decides this place is the cat's meow, you would not get a spot because obviously they didn't rank you 1-2-3 or 4 (that's what they are saying to you).
Psych is pretty uncompetitive, though, so if they said you'll likely get a spot, you probably will.

 

[gutonc]

What if the PD at my number one spot told me they were ranking me much higher than how far they usually go down to fill? But that I would not match there if they matched just the ranked to match candidates.How often does this happen at small sized programs..does it ever? Or how often do most programs fill within the top ten on the ROL as well say for 4 spots? Thanks.

It certainly happens. I had a friend in med school who was told "you'll definitely match here" by his #1 program and then didn't match there. When he talked to the PD there afterwards he was told "we ranked you well within where we usually go on the list but we matched higher on the list this year." This was in a Gen Surg program w/ 4 categorical spots.

That said, rank programs the way you want, you can't do anything else.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

The NRMP suggests that programs rank 15+ people for each slot. If you figure that most people go on 8-10 interviews but then match at a single program, you can see that programs are likely to go down at least 10 for each slot. Obviously, competitive programs / fields will have a lower number, and programs can "engineer" a lower number by purposely ranking people who are likely to match highly. In psych, it's almost certainly 10-15:1 in most programs.

 

[Abram Hoffer]

The NRMP suggests that programs rank 15+ people for each slot. If you figure that most people go on 8-10 interviews but then match at a single program, you can see that programs are likely to go down at least 10 for each slot. Obviously, competitive programs / fields will have a lower number, and programs can "engineer" a lower number by purposely ranking people who are likely to match highly. In psych, it's almost certainly 10-15:1 in most programs.

Any thoughts on Med-Psych? There's 13 programs nationwide, and usually 2 spots per program. Most seem to interview 20 people or so. How competitive? How far down the list?

 

[psychmatch]

Thanks.What if the program is interviewing much less than that? Like the max they could go to fill all their spots is 8:1 and anything after that they go unfilled..which has never happened until now.It looks more like 5:1 here..am just keeping my fingers crossed since I need to get in here.

 

[predodoc]

The NRMP suggests that programs rank 15+ people for each slot. If you figure that most people go on 8-10 interviews but then match at a single program, you can see that programs are likely to go down at least 10 for each slot. Obviously, competitive programs / fields will have a lower number, and programs can "engineer" a lower number by purposely ranking people who are likely to match highly. In psych, it's almost certainly 10-15:1 in most programs.

if you look at the rusults and Data of 2008 put out by nrmp the 2nd to last page tells you the avg # of applicants needed to fill a spot in each specialty.

Derm= 2.3
Primary care IM=10

check it out.

 

[psychmatch]

Yeah thanks,I found it..for psych its 4.4:1

http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddata2008.pdf

 

[thunder hawk]

I dont understand for General surgery categorical avg no of ranked applicants per position needed to fill all the position within the program is 4.2 whereas for prelim surgery its only 2.0 ....what does that mean ????

 

[analgold09]

The NRMP suggests that programs rank 15+ people for each slot. If you figure that most people go on 8-10 interviews but then match at a single program, you can see that programs are likely to go down at least 10 for each slot. Obviously, competitive programs / fields will have a lower number, and programs can "engineer" a lower number by purposely ranking people who are likely to match highly. In psych, it's almost certainly 10-15:1 in most programs.

I can understand that how far a program must go on their rank list is a measure of desirability and prestige, but is this information readily available to outside parties? It seems that if only the program will know, then the best strategy would be to rank the best applicants first -- even if it runs the risk of having matches far down the list.

 

[Abram Hoffer]

Any thoughts on Med-Psych? There's 13 programs nationwide, and usually 2 spots per program. Most seem to interview 20 people or so. How competitive? How far down the list?

I found it-thank you. It is 3.1 ranked per spot to fill (in 08). This was 2.3:1 in 2007. So as long as the program ranks 4 people, they will fill that one spot, correct? And to extrapolate, as long as they rank 8 people for 2 spots, they will fill their program, correct? So, by interviewing 20, they can eliminate more than half of those candidates (not even ranking them) and still fill both of their slots! [There are usually only 2 spots per program.]

 

[Acherona]

I dont understand for General surgery categorical avg no of ranked applicants per position needed to fill all the position within the program is 4.2 whereas for prelim surgery its only 2.0 ....what does that mean ????

yea, these numbers seem weird to me too. The only thing I can think of is that these specialties rank people highly that have promised to rank them highly.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I dont understand for General surgery categorical avg no of ranked applicants per position needed to fill all the position within the program is 4.2 whereas for prelim surgery its only 2.0 ....what does that mean ????

Categorical General Surgery is a much larger field and more popular than Prelim Surgery. Applicants are interviewing at a large number of places; Prelim positions are generally reserved for Designed Subspecialties.

Thus, a program with Categorical spots must rank more people to actually fill those spots (ie, a program with 4 positions usually ranks around 18-20 per spot, although some programs have gotten cocky in the past, ranked fewer and found themselves unfilled).

I know this probably doesn't explain it very well, but it is typical to rank more people for categorical position because:

a) you have to if you want to fill
b) because it doesn't matter in some cases whether or not the Prelim positions fill
c) there aren't as many applicants for the Prelim spots and generally not as much competition (very few people want to do Prelim Surgery, its generally reserved for those who are matching to an advanced position or those trying to get a Categorical spot).

 

[BlondeDocteur]

Exactly-- no one *applies* to prelim surgery. Since those spots are there for the taking, they're numbers are low due to prematches and scrambles.

 

[Samoa]

Also, they don't separate the designated from the undesignated prelim positions. For the designated spots, there is a 1:1 applicant to position ratio, because those spots are by definition reserved for people who've successfully matched to an advanced position. For undesignated spots (and there ARE people who apply for them), it doesn't at all reflect poorly on a program not to fill, so there's no pressure for the PD to rank anyone s/he has doubts about. A number of qualified applicants always turn up in the scramble. Hence the lower ratio: there's no incentive to be absolutely sure of matching every spot AND it's skewed downward by the designated prelims.