Rankings: Best Hospitals?

[btuck]

Couldn't find a better thread for this.

Why when school rankings are considered, we look at the best medical schools for research rankings on USNWR and not the best hospitals? Shouldn't we judge schools based on their affiliated hospital systems, after all, that is where you get your training.

I know that there are only 20 on the "Honor Roll," but why are these not considered the top 20 medical schools?

1. Mayo Clinic
2. Cleveland Clinic (Case Western - Lerner)
3. Johns Hopkins Hospital
4. Massachusetts General Hospital (Harvard)
5. UCSF Medical Center
6. University of Michigan Hospitals and Health Centers
7. Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center (Drew)
8. New York-Presbyterian Hospital (Cornell and Columbia)
9. Stanford Health Care
10. Hospitals of the University of Pennsylvania (Perelman)
11. Cedars-Sinai Medical Center (USC - Keck)
12. Barnes-Jewish Hospital (Washington University)
13. Northwestern Memorial Hospital (Feinberg)
14. UPMC Presbyterian Shadyside
15. University of Colorado Hospital
16. Thomas Jefferson University Hospitals (Kimmel)
17. Duke University Hospital
18. Mount Sinai Hospital (Icahn)
19. NYU Langone Medical Center
20. Mayo Clinic Phoenix

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[libertyyne]

Best hospital status has nothing to do with quality of instruction. Nor does it translate to increased research funding or outcomes for students. So it doesn't mean much for medical school comparisons.

 

[btuck]

Best hospital status has nothing to do with quality of instruction. Nor does it translate to increased research funding or outcomes for students. So it doesn't mean much for medical school comparisons.

Doesn't it mean that there are more research opportunities in better hospitals, and doesn't it mean that students have a better chance of matching to better hospitals at their home programs?

 

[Bryant088]

Almost all of the hospitals on that list are affiliated with the top 20 med schools...

 

[libertyyne]

Almost all of the hospitals on that list are affiliated with the top 20 med schools...

Correlation is not causation.

 

[Bryant088]

Best hospital status has nothing to do with quality of instruction. Nor does it translate to increased research funding or outcomes for students. So it doesn't mean much for medical school comparisons.

Disagree. Med schools are mostly the same for the preclinical years. It is the quality of the M3/M4 years that makes the most difference. If your school is affiliated with a high performing hospital (as most high ranked schools are), this could mean big name attendings in your field of interest, which does influence outcomes for students (as you have access to better mentors for research, letters, etc.) Take Iowa for example. Ranked 32 but the hospital itself is outstanding and has departments in ENT, ortho, ophtho that rival those of "top 5" med schools. Take a look at how well Iowa students going into those fields match if you want evidence that the strength of your home department matters.

 

[libertyyne]

Disagree. Med schools are mostly the same for the preclinical years. It is the quality of the M3/M4 years that makes the most difference. If your school is affiliated with a high performing hospital (as most high ranked schools are), this could mean big name attendings in your field of interest, which does influence outcomes for students (as you have access to better mentors for research, letters, etc.) Take Iowa for example. Ranked 32 but the hospital itself is outstanding and has departments in ENT, ortho, ophtho that rival those of "top 5" med schools. Take a look at how well Iowa students going into those fields match if you want evidence that the strength of your home department matters.

I agree that home programs matter. But what is important for a home program is different in terms of metrics for what is important for "best hospital" . Look at Jefferson on that list. Do you really think Jefferson is a better school than nyu,Duke, and ichan ?

 

[Longshot6]

Interested in this topic. UChicago hospital is not highly ranked, but UChicago is ranked pretty well on US News.

 

[EnterMemberNameHere]

Best hospital status has nothing to do with quality of instruction. Nor does it translate to increased research funding or outcomes for students. So it doesn't mean much for medical school comparisons.

Agree with this. Hospital rankings can be a bit wonky, and are largely based on factors that are completely irrelevant to a medical student at the affiliated school. For example, if you go to HMS and do your rotations at Beth Israel (which is not in the top 20 you listed) instead of MGH or the Brigham, you’re not getting screwed out of a better education. It’s just a different environment to learn medicine.

 

[thenucleusaccumbens]

Couldn't find a better thread for this.

Why when school rankings are considered, we look at the best medical schools for research rankings on USNWR and not the best hospitals? Shouldn't we judge schools based on their affiliated hospital systems, after all, that is where you get your training.

I know that there are only 20 on the "Honor Roll," but why are these not considered the top 20 medical schools?

1. Mayo Clinic
2. Cleveland Clinic (Case Western - Lerner)
3. Johns Hopkins Hospital
4. Massachusetts General Hospital (Harvard)
5. UCSF Medical Center
6. University of Michigan Hospitals and Health Centers
7. Ronald Reagan UCLA Medical Center (Drew)
8. New York-Presbyterian Hospital (Cornell and Columbia)
9. Stanford Health Care
10. Hospitals of the University of Pennsylvania (Perelman)
11. Cedars-Sinai Medical Center (USC - Keck)
12. Barnes-Jewish Hospital (Washington University)
13. Northwestern Memorial Hospital (Feinberg)
14. UPMC Presbyterian Shadyside
15. University of Colorado Hospital
16. Thomas Jefferson University Hospitals (Kimmel)
17. Duke University Hospital
18. Mount Sinai Hospital (Icahn)
19. NYU Langone Medical Center
20. Mayo Clinic Phoenix

US News ranks hospitals using data on patient survival (including mortality rates for particularly challenging cases), patient safety measures, care related factors such as the breadth of patient services and staffing. They also include expert opinions obtained through a physician survey which asks physicians to name 5 hospitals they consider the best for difficult cases in their specialty. These rankings are really focused on patient care and patient outcomes, not so much education. That said, as others have pointed out, most of the top ranked hospitals are also associated with top 20 medical schools.

 

[longhaul3]

There is a clear link between patient care, which seems broadly to be the basis for these rankings, and medical education: the housestaff. To a large extent, the best hospitals have the best residents, and the most important learning in med school comes from them. I think this point is vastly underappreciated by pre-meds and pre-clinical students.

With that said it's really an academic point because all of the schools affiliated with the top hospitals are themselves obviously top schools, so in any case you will be getting both strong clinical training and the name brand on your MSPE's letterhead.

 

[Willy38]

Your medical degree comes from a university not a hospital. Your training in a particular field is during residency at a particular hospital (system). As has been said, the hospital metrics used to rank these have almost nothing to do with medical student quality of education or research funding. There is some halo effect associated with strong residency programs though and it is true that if you have a strong home program for a given field that you have an advantage of matching to it over other students regardless of the school they are coming from.

Having strong housestaff is a good point as well, although that doesn’t necessarily correlate to good learning atmosphere for students (interest in teaching) but is something to consider.

 

[Dwan]

Per these rankings, Mayo Phx outperforms Brigham, which may be true regarding patient care, but the Mayo Phx site is known to be attending dominated, cushy, and doesn't have the best clinical training for residents (nor is it competitive at all to get into, unlike its medical school). So even for residencies, the best hospital rankings don't necessary correlate with the best places to go.

 

[sadkmladkds]

More go into school rankings then hospital but it is a huge factor that one should consider

 

[thenucleusaccumbens]

Per these rankings, Mayo Phx outperforms Brigham, which may be true regarding patient care, but the Mayo Phx site is known to be attending dominated, cushy, and doesn't have the best clinical training for residents (nor is it competitive at all to get into, unlike its medical school). So even for residencies, the best hospital rankings don't necessary correlate with the best places to go.

yeah the hospital rankings are all based on patient care data. For residency program rankings most people I know use Doximity