rant about current admissions process

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omrfc768 said:
i've been very frustrated recently and i just needed a place to vent so here goes.

i am very upset with the way admissions criteria works. sure everybody has to take all the pre-med required classes but not all classes are created equal nor are all majors. with the unofficial cutoff, its essentially telling me that my 3.3/3.4 in biomedical engineering is not worth as much as the student with a 3.9 in something like art who took the very minimal science classes. I took hardcore engineering physics/calculus 1-4 with ODE/Lin. alg and some mech. eng. classes to satisfy my biomechanics concentration. yet all of that is looked at as inferior med school applicant to the 3.9 in art. (for sake of argument lets just say MCAT scores equal at something like 30) The current system doesnt reward academic exploration and challenging oneself in college, everybody (fine, a large handful, not all) is too sacred of ruining their GPA so they end up taking the bare minimum and major in something trivial.
I dont think this is how the system should work, why reward playing it safe and for many students just retaking AP classes they took in high school already just to get the pre-med requirement.
I too have often thought of changing my major to something "easier" for me like east asian studies but the only thing stopping me is the cold hard fact that I know everybody faces a 75% chance of not going to medical school and an eng. degree makes me supposedly "more hirable."
If med schools are truly about a "holistic" review it shouldnt be this way, but then having it truly holistic would create more actual work for adcoms and we dont want that

rant over
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Tldr

Cool story bro
 
My friend got into med school last year with a 3.4 cGPA and sGPA as a BME. He also: graduated from Wash U, did major research at WUSM, was an outstanding RA, and held some other leadership positions, in addition to having a kickass PS and LOR's. Without rehashing what has been said on this forum multiple times, "prestige" of undergrad matters to an extent, and so does the way you present yourself in your application.
 
Here's the deal.
It's a seller's market, and med schools have the pick of the litter.

Med school is a lot harder than UG, and excellence in your science courses is one of telling us that you can handle the rigors of medical school.

Whether somebody majors in art, or biology, they still have to take the pre-reqs. We expect them to do well.

Stats get you to the door, but ECs get you through the door. That's the "holistic" part, and we do look at things more than stats.

Basically, the answer is "tough".

omrfc768 said:
i've been very frustrated recently and i just needed a place to vent so here goes.

i am very upset with the way admissions criteria works. sure everybody has to take all the pre-med required classes but not all classes are created equal nor are all majors. with the unofficial cutoff, its essentially telling me that my 3.3/3.4 in biomedical engineering is not worth as much as the student with a 3.9 in something like art who took the very minimal science classes. I took hardcore engineering physics/calculus 1-4 with ODE/Lin. alg and some mech. eng. classes to satisfy my biomechanics concentration. yet all of that is looked at as inferior med school applicant to the 3.9 in art. (for sake of argument lets just say MCAT scores equal at something like 30) The current system doesnt reward academic exploration and challenging oneself in college, everybody (fine, a large handful, not all) is too sacred of ruining their GPA so they end up taking the bare minimum and major in something trivial.
I dont think this is how the system should work, why reward playing it safe and for many students just retaking AP classes they took in high school already just to get the pre-med requirement.
I too have often thought of changing my major to something "easier" for me like east asian studies but the only thing stopping me is the cold hard fact that I know everybody faces a 75% chance of not going to medical school and an eng. degree makes me supposedly "more hirable."
If med schools are truly about a "holistic" review it shouldnt be this way, but then having it truly holistic would create more actual work for adcoms and we dont want that

rant over
Click to expand...
 
1. Everyone takes the same pre-reqs.
2. Everyone has a science gpa
3. Everyone takes the mcat
4. Everyone has to have ec's that are up to snuff.
5. Everyone has to get letters of rec that say positive things about them being physicians.

If Engineering has really challenged you in ways that no other undergrads have been challenged then that will show in your MCAT and in your performance in medical school.
 
3.3/3.4 vs 3.9 is a large difference. However, you're forgetting about the MCAT. A 36/3.4 will definitely show admissions you know your stuff while the lowish GPA will be compared to the rigors of your classes. Getting the same MCAT as the art guy with a 3.9 kind of negates your argument that "you deserve admissions more than him"
 
Why should the rest of us be held accountable for your poor choices?

I know some Art students who spend nights drawing/making art; and I, as well as most other premeds, would not succeed in that.
If you can't maintain a good GPA in a given major, then perhaps you should not pursue it. Plain and simple.
 
I'm with OP, at least at my university the hard science courses are a world more difficult than soft sci/humanities and people pulling a 3.4 in BME or other hard BCPM major here absolutely laugh at coursework in subjects like psych, anthro, history.

But, I also reply to OP with "tough nuggets". The increased rigor of hard sciences is an opportunity to get a leg up and make your resume more impressive, just get a 3.9 in a BCPM major.


Lucca said:
If Engineering has really challenged you in ways that no other undergrads have been challenged then that will show in your MCAT and in your performance in medical school.
Click to expand...

This I strongly disagree with, extremely in depth and difficult coursework in the sciences matters jack squat for the MCAT, which tests only superficial stuff. You study the test and basic intro crap to do well, not 3-400 level BME material. Performance in med school doesn't even make sense here since he is talking about getting in in the first place
 
efle said:
I'm with OP, at least at my university the hard science courses are a world more difficult than soft sci/humanities and people pulling a 3.4 in BME or other hard BCPM major here absolutely laugh at coursework in subjects like psych, anthro, history.

But, I also reply to OP with "tough nuggets". The increased rigor of hard sciences is an opportunity to get a leg up and make your resume more impressive, just get a 3.9 in a BCPM major.




This I strongly disagree with, extremely in depth and difficult coursework in the sciences matters jack squat for the MCAT, which tests only superficial stuff. You study the test and basic intro crap to do well, not 3-400 level BME material. Performance in med school doesn't even make sense here since he is talking about getting in in the first place
Click to expand...

Med school has very little to do with 3-400 level engineering courses as well. A strong performance on the MCAT shows strong reasoning ability, especially on standardized tests which are the gold standard in medicine. If BME coursework is worth the thousands of dollars you paid for it then you should be able to have a strong enough work ethic and reasoning ability to do well. If you don't then I guess you weren't up to snuff to begin with. Then once you are in medical school you can relax and know that your challenging, world-class education prepared you for anything medical school could throw at you. Meanwhile, your "soft" humanities classmates will be there floundering just to pass.

Also I know a lot of "soft" science and humanities majors that could blow most pre-meds out of the water as far as talent/intellect/aptitude go.
 
omrfc768 said:
i've been very frustrated recently and i just needed a place to vent so here goes.

i am very upset with the way admissions criteria works. sure everybody has to take all the pre-med required classes but not all classes are created equal nor are all majors. with the unofficial cutoff, its essentially telling me that my 3.3/3.4 in biomedical engineering is not worth as much as the student with a 3.9 in something like art who took the very minimal science classes. I took hardcore engineering physics/calculus 1-4 with ODE/Lin. alg and some mech. eng. classes to satisfy my biomechanics concentration. yet all of that is looked at as inferior med school applicant to the 3.9 in art. (for sake of argument lets just say MCAT scores equal at something like 30) The current system doesnt reward academic exploration and challenging oneself in college, everybody (fine, a large handful, not all) is too sacred of ruining their GPA so they end up taking the bare minimum and major in something trivial.
I dont think this is how the system should work, why reward playing it safe and for many students just retaking AP classes they took in high school already just to get the pre-med requirement.
I too have often thought of changing my major to something "easier" for me like east asian studies but the only thing stopping me is the cold hard fact that I know everybody faces a 75% chance of not going to medical school and an eng. degree makes me supposedly "more hirable."
If med schools are truly about a "holistic" review it shouldnt be this way, but then having it truly holistic would create more actual work for adcoms and we dont want that

rant over
Click to expand...

There is far to much wining on here about GPA. Many of us are able to carry a heavy load in an engineering/physics major and achieve a 3.9+. It's all about how hard you work.

Also, people just need to realize that getting into med school is somewhat about playing the game. It's not like it's a huge secret that sGPA is very important. If you couldn't hack it in engineering, maybe you should have transferred to east asian studies.
 
Lucca said:
Med school has very little to do with 3-400 level engineering courses as well. A strong performance on the MCAT shows strong reasoning ability, especially on standardized tests which are the gold standard in medicine. If BME coursework is worth the thousands of dollars you paid for it then you should be able to have a strong enough work ethic and reasoning ability to do well. If you don't then I guess you weren't up to snuff to begin with. Then once you are in medical school you can relax and know that your challenging, world-class education prepared you for anything medical school could throw at you. Meanwhile, your "soft" humanities classmates will be there floundering just to pass.

Also I know a lot of "soft" science and humanities majors that could blow most pre-meds out of the water as far as talent/intellect/aptitude go.
Click to expand...

Sure, the people who do well in BME will likely have reasoning ability to do well on the MCAT. Yes, there are smart humanities majors, and there are smart people who never go to college at all, etc. Your statement that taking a challenging engi major will reflect in ↑ mcat than alternative major is still totally untrue. And again nobody is discussing performance in med school, he is talking about admissions.
 
omrfc768 said:
i've been very frustrated recently and i just needed a place to vent so here goes.

i am very upset with the way admissions criteria works. sure everybody has to take all the pre-med required classes but not all classes are created equal nor are all majors. with the unofficial cutoff, its essentially telling me that my 3.3/3.4 in biomedical engineering is not worth as much as the student with a 3.9 in something like art who took the very minimal science classes. I took hardcore engineering physics/calculus 1-4 with ODE/Lin. alg and some mech. eng. classes to satisfy my biomechanics concentration. yet all of that is looked at as inferior med school applicant to the 3.9 in art. (for sake of argument lets just say MCAT scores equal at something like 30) The current system doesnt reward academic exploration and challenging oneself in college, everybody (fine, a large handful, not all) is too sacred of ruining their GPA so they end up taking the bare minimum and major in something trivial.
I dont think this is how the system should work, why reward playing it safe and for many students just retaking AP classes they took in high school already just to get the pre-med requirement.
I too have often thought of changing my major to something "easier" for me like east asian studies but the only thing stopping me is the cold hard fact that I know everybody faces a 75% chance of not going to medical school and an eng. degree makes me supposedly "more hirable."
If med schools are truly about a "holistic" review it shouldnt be this way, but then having it truly holistic would create more actual work for adcoms and we dont want that

rant over
Click to expand...

While I'm not sure if I agree with the rest of the post, I think this statement is true and would also like to see this changed.
 
efle said:
Sure, the people who do well in BME will likely have reasoning ability to do well on the MCAT. Yes, there are smart humanities majors, and there are smart people who never go to college at all, etc. Your statement that taking a challenging engi major will reflect in ↑ mcat than alternative major is still totally untrue. And again nobody is discussing performance in med school, he is talking about admissions.
Click to expand...
edit, see below..
 
Last edited:
Lucca said:
Really? Because physics majors and biomedical engineers have the highest mcat scores among undergraduate majors.

http://medschoolodyssey.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/composite.png

edit: added link to chart, also note that the top scores are all "soft science and humanities majors" all the way down to chemistry.
Click to expand...

Because of the people taking those majors, not because the majors prepare them better. Those majors also have higher average test scores going into college. This is called a "confounding variable" which you might recall from a stats class.
 
efle said:
Because of the people taking those majors, not because the majors prepare them better. Those majors also have higher average test scores going into college. This is called a "confounding variable" which you might recall from a stats class.
Click to expand...


Lolk. There's internal distributions within each major and I don't think there's a serious enough division between the quality of hs students entering into those majors to explain the distribution. Remember that the top of the distribution is also economics, neuroscience, english and mathematics. "Softer" sciences that typically have lower entrance scores.
 
Lucca said:
Lolk. There's internal distributions within each major and I don't think there's a serious enough division between the quality of hs students entering into those majors to explain the distribution. Remember that the top of the distribution is also economics, neuroscience, english and mathematics. "Softer" sciences that typically have lower entrance scores.
Click to expand...

Lol @ math and neuroscience being soft. Soft is psych, socio, anthro, and pure humanities. English is there because of verbal, also something you'd expect based on the people going into that major. But I get it, you think minor differences in MCAT scores are legit but not minor differences in SAT, makes total sense now. If I actually believed people who chose to study physics had the same aptitude for physical science as people studying anthropology, I would have the same conclusion you do, that it must be their education making them score highest in PS.
 
I agree with the principle of this. 🙂

I'm playing devil's advocate for a bit, but if major rigor were accounted for, surely a 3.9 BME would be better than 3.9 art - most of us would agree that BME is generally more intellectually demanding than art. But how fair would it be to the 3.9 art student who had little interest in a BCPM major in the first place?
 
it is possible that your ranting is legit. That at your school you do have a huge deflation problem with your major and you are the victim of it. In which case, I'm sorry.

But it is equally possible that you are attributing your failure to your GPA without justification. In today's admission game, EC plays such a huge role that many people with perfect stats are sitting on abysmal amount of IIs left alone acceptance. An Adcom at a school famous for holistic review told me that the most common cause of application failure these days are non-impressive LORs. They don't want to see good LOR, they want to see absolutely amazing LORs really detailing who you are and what you've done.

Besides: if your major at your schools are deflated when compared to other schools or other major, then it is likely that the med school adcoms already know about it. In many schools, it's the same people who've been doing this for decades. Students with your GPA at WashU go on to decent medical schools at a decent rate. I've had Adcom told me (yes I like to chat with Adcoms during and after my interviews), that they would even know which school has poor advising and they were willing even to cut a slack for the students from those schools because of it.

There are numerous people who've done hard major, some even with full time job(s) and other interesting stuff while maintaining near perfect GPA. I've meet quite a few of those on my trail. Yes you have an excuse, but that can't explain sufficiently to other people, such a big difference between 3.9 and 3.4

That being said: Yes, the game of med school certainly favors those who play it safe and play it informed. I guess that's part of what being a doctor is about.
 
efle said:
Lol @ math and neuroscience being soft. Soft is psych, socio, anthro, and pure humanities. English is there because of verbal, also something you'd expect based on the people going into that major. But I get it, you think minor differences in MCAT scores are legit but not minor differences in SAT, makes total sense now. If I actually believed people who chose to study physics had the same aptitude for physical science as people studying anthropology, I would have the same conclusion you do, that it must be their education making them score highest in PS.
Click to expand...
LOL at that graph. I got a 13 on verbal as a bio major. Get on my level.

But in all seriousness, your major shouldn't (and probably doesn't) matter in the long run as long as you tried your best and succeeded in it. Adcoms know that Wash U BME and STEM majors are top-notch (or rather the premed prereq's), so they'll take that into account.
 
-The only place I agree with you (OP and efle) is in the difference in course load. Although we all take the same prereqs - getting an A in physics (while taking only 1 other BCMP course) doesn't mean you are more likely to do better in med school than someone who got a B in physics (while taking 3 or 4 other BCMP courses). So the sGPA needs to be taken in context!

-But the assumptions your are making are based on your typical art student. The premed art student's course load are just as rigorous as yours. It could actually be argued that their course load is more rigorous since they have to go out of their way in order to complete the prereqs for med school. Where for most of us science majors it is conveniently incorporated into our majors.

-Getting into med school isn't easy for anyone (hence why you are complaining). Everyone who gets into medical school puts in a great deal of hard work so just put in yours buddy!
 
omrfc768 said:
I dont think this is how the system should work, why reward playing it safe and for many students just retaking AP classes they took in high school already just to get the pre-med requirement.
Click to expand...
So now you're blaming people for the high schools they go to? You realize med schools don't accept AP credit (even if you got 5s) for all your premed requirements, right?
 
soccerusa said:
There is far to much wining on here about GPA. Many of us are able to carry a heavy load in an engineering/physics major and achieve a 3.9+. It's all about how hard you work.

Also, people just need to realize that getting into med school is somewhat about playing the game. It's not like it's a huge secret that sGPA is very important. If you couldn't hack it in engineering, maybe you should have transferred to east asian studies.
Click to expand...

Ismet said:
All of medicine is about playing the game. It doesn't end once you get into med school.
Click to expand...

I don't know a single ChemE/MechE/Physics major who had a 3.9+ and I overlapped with almost a decade worth of students at Wash U. It is not only about how hard you work. Small sample size, n=~50 maybe? Maybe it has to do with what school you go to.

And yes, medical school admissions can be played as a game, which makes getting in infinitely harder.

And yes, medicine can be played as a game as well, which makes patients suffer.
 
mimelim said:
I don't know a single ChemE/MechE/Physics major who had a 3.9+ and I overlapped with almost a decade worth of students at Wash U. It is not only about how hard you work. Small sample size, n=~50 maybe? Maybe it has to do with what school you go to.

And yes, medical school admissions can be played as a game, which makes getting in infinitely harder.

And yes, medicine can be played as a game as well, which makes patients suffer.
Click to expand...
I would also make the assertion that if you see and play medicine entirely as a game to win, when the game finally stops when you graduate med school, things come crashing down quickly, when it's no longer impressing someone to get an "H" on a transcript and you're actually responsible for **** getting done.
 
omrfc768 said:
that isn't at all what I'm saying. Obviously I know that med schools dont give a flying **** about your AP's of what you've taken. What I'm saying is that for a number of pre-med's taking those pre-med requirements of intro bio/chem/physics is more or less retaking an AP class (at a step/half step highler level) they've taken already. Its not your first time learning it so youll probably do decent/could be a walk in the park.
Click to expand...
And so? The premed requirements are what they are. Of course people who take the AP course version will have an easier time bc they're required to take it for a college course grade. So?
 
omrfc768 said:
i don't get your point, what colleges even allow you to substitute AP scores for actual letter grades on transcripts?
Click to expand...
They don't. Those students have no choice but to retake those courses.
 
omrfc768 said:
i don't get your point, what colleges even allow you to substitute AP scores for actual letter grades on transcripts?
Click to expand...
No DermViser is saying that those who took the AP class and also have to take the college version for their degree/prereqs will have an advantage. And the point is that doesn't matter. Life isn't fair. What do you suggest should be changed?
 
efle said:
I'm with OP, at least at my university the hard science courses are a world more difficult than soft sci/humanities and people pulling a 3.4 in BME or other hard BCPM major here absolutely laugh at coursework in subjects like psych, anthro, history.

But, I also reply to OP with "tough nuggets". The increased rigor of hard sciences is an opportunity to get a leg up and make your resume more impressive, just get a 3.9 in a BCPM major.




This I strongly disagree with, extremely in depth and difficult coursework in the sciences matters jack squat for the MCAT, which tests only superficial stuff. You study the test and basic intro crap to do well, not 3-400 level BME material. Performance in med school doesn't even make sense here since he is talking about getting in in the first place
Click to expand...


I'm a non traditional student, graduated with a business degree a few years ago. I decided I wanted to go to med school and did a 2 year post bacc to complete all the pre-reqs. And few things annoyed me more than being surrounded by pre-meds/science majors who constantly complained about how hard their classes were and how easy every other major had it. Guess what? No no one told you to choose that major. Don't get mad at the rest of us who wanted a major with classes that we actually enjoyed and didn't have to kill ourselves. I still took the pre-reqs and did just as good as any science major. And I took the mcat like every one else. So why should I be looked at any differently? Plus med schools need a little non-traditional in their lives. Applications from mostly science majors can get old after a while
 
claduva94 said:
No DermViser is saying that those who took the AP class and also have to take the college version for their degree/prereqs will have an advantage. And the point is that doesn't matter. Life isn't fair. What do you suggest should be changed?
Click to expand...
Apparently telling high schoolers to dumb down their curriculum so things are "fair" when college starts.
 
HuskyBabe said:
I'm a non traditional student, graduated with a business degree a few years ago. I decided I wanted to go to med school and did a 2 year post bacc to complete all the pre-reqs. And few things annoyed me more than being surrounded by pre-meds/science majors who constantly complained about how hard their classes were and how easy every other major had it. Guess what? No no one told you to choose that major. Don't get mad at the rest of us who wanted a major with classes that we actually enjoyed and didn't have to kill ourselves. I still took the pre-reqs and did just as good as any science major. And I took the mcat like every one else. So why should I be looked at any differently? Plus med schools need a little non-traditional in their lives. Applications from mostly science majors can get old after a while
Click to expand...

And then there are those of us who double major a science and a humanity out of interest, 4.0 them both and reflect on how different the rigors are while having no reasons to complain and an appreciation for them both.


DermViser said:
Apparently telling high schoolers to dumb down their curriculum so things are "fair" when college starts.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't tell someone to study something they didn't enjoy, I would tell them to be careful what university they chose to study it at. Enjoy BME? Want to go to a good med school? Probs don't go to Hopkins unless you really understand what you are getting yourself into
 
efle said:
And then there are those of us who double major a science and a humanity out of interest, 4.0 them both and reflect on how different the rigors are while having no reasons to complain and an appreciation for them both.




I wouldn't tell someone to study something they didn't enjoy, I would tell them to be careful what university they chose to study it at. Enjoy BME? Want to go to a good med school? Probs don't go to Hopkins unless you really understand what you are getting yourself into
Click to expand...

I don't think most high school students have the luxury of "choosing" what college they want to go to, much less how well they are prepared to even appraise what they are best at or prepared for - if prepared at all - in high school.
 
Lucca said:
I don't think most high school students have the luxury of "choosing" what college they want to go to, much less how well they are prepared to even appraise what they are best at or prepared for - if prepared at all - in high school.
Click to expand...
Apparently OP thinks people shouldn't take AP classes so that all premeds have a fair and level playing field.
 
Lucca said:
I don't think most high school students have the luxury of "choosing" what college they want to go to, much less how well they are prepared to even appraise what they are best at or prepared for - if prepared at all - in high school.
Click to expand...
Concur. I think many overestimate their abilities only to be quickly humbled. After all, they were at the top of their classes in high school right? Why should that be different?
 
DermViser said:
Apparently OP thinks people shouldn't take AP classes so that all premeds have a fair and level playing field.
Click to expand...

That or make it so that majors are looked at differently against some metric of rigor. All that would do is make pre-meds more homogeneous than they already are.
 
Lucca said:
I don't think most high school students have the luxury of "choosing" what college they want to go to, much less how well they are prepared to even appraise what they are best at or prepared for - if prepared at all - in high school.
Click to expand...

Most people choose a college out of multiple acceptances, and the people getting into top programs almost always have free ride options and auto entry into the honors college at some state schools. In fact I think getting national merit finalist alone prompts several such offers. I do agree that high schoolers have no concept of being academically average when heading into top schools though


claduva94 said:
Concur. I think many overestimate their abilities only to be quickly humbled. After all, they were at the top of their classes in high school right? Why should that be different?
Click to expand...

Yep, its very sad watching people who were #1 in their high school give it their all and make B- prereq grades and drop premed


Lucca said:
That or make it so that majors are looked at differently against some metric of rigor. All that would do is make pre-meds more homogeneous than they already are.
Click to expand...

You could just separate out the prereq GPA as a standard across premeds within a school, it just sucks having to keep up the top grades in high level STEM classes when a psych major would be done after a year BCPM
 
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