Re-applicant. What went wrong + list of schools advice

[quiktrip]

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Hi. I applied last cycle and was not very successful.


1. GPA 3.9, both cum/science. doublemajor in science/social science from top10 school
MCAT - 35 but 8 on verbal
2.EC
- hospital volunteer (6months) 220hrs
-non-clicinical volunteer at free clinic (2 summers) 100hrs
-non-clinical tutoring experiences all combined (throughout 4 years of undergraduate) 500hrs
-two summer research program at different school
-research for two years at my undergraduate
-shadowing oncology surgeons (100hrs) 2 weeks

3. List of schools I applied to
Albert Einstein
BU
Tufts
U of Rochester
My state school
Cornell
NYU
Mt Sainai
Georgetown
George Washington
UChicago
Northwestern
Emory
UPitt
Jefferson
Drexel (didnt submit secondary)
Albany (didn't submit secondary)
Temple
Johns Hopkins

I think I may have applied to a couple of more schools
I had interview from my state school, Univ of Roch, Albert Einstein, Cornell,
but I got 3 waitlist and 1 post-interview reject

BTW, Primary submitted on July 4th, Started submitting secondary from early august to late august

4. My analysis on why I got rejected
- MCAT (verbal) yea, I'm 1.5 generation immigrant, ESL student etc
- I didn't have strong PS, but more importantly I spent less than an hour filling out work/activity and most meaningful essay because I thought it was like a college application. Personally I think this really was the primary weakness. When someone read my work/activity section, I think people could tell that I BSed this section quickly (BTW, I mean everything was appropriate, it's just that it was clear that I didn't spend much time on it)
-Probably interview skill - since I got some interview but didn't really turn them into acceptances. I mean, I didn't prepare for interviews anyways
-Lack of clinical experience? I had 6 months of hospital volunteer + 2 weeks of shadowing only
-Being busy+cocky. Honestly, I thought I would get into some schools with my stats (at least state school) and due to my family's financial problem, I had to work full-time as soon as I got back. I knew submitting early was important, so I just wrote PS asap and filled out work/activity


5. I was thinking about waiting for another year to submit my application, but my MCAT expires soon so I must apply this year (I already submitted primary yesterday)

6. Things I did to improve my application
- MCAT - yea I didn't improve this one
- Spent lots of time on PS, got multiple feedbacks. I started with my old PS and tweaked lots of things. My original PS focused on my desire to help others, but now it is more "passion toward medicine". Also, I included specific anecdote I had during my recent hospital volunteering experience.
- Spent lots of time on work/activity. Better description, and most importantly, 3 most meaningful essay that truly show the transformative nature, impacts I had on society, how I changed etc. Specifically, first meaningful essay was about research (I did it for 2 years, multiple failure, finally led to publication) 2nd essay, non-clinical volunteering that I've been involved with since high school, continued in college during summer, and continued after graduation. 3rd essay, my full-time job this year as SAT tutor (briefly explained why I had to get this job instead of exploring more medicine or personal growth, then talked about what I learned through this expereicne and how medicine also has the same merit that I enjoyed as a tutor)

-2nd author publication in quite prestigious journal (double digit impact factor). BTW, I didn't have this publication when I applied. But I included them as "updates" for some schools
- 8 months of working as a tutor for full-time job.
-I continued to do 2 non-clinical volunteering that I mentioned in the last cycle application for 8 months
After this, I moved to Asia because I was offered a very good job (don't make lots of money, but something i can enjoy)
-3 months of working as consultant in a small firm outside US (Asia). I am still working
-3 months of volunteering at hospital outside US (Asia). I am still doing this
-3 weeks of shadowing ENT doctor outside US (Asia). I am also still doing this
-For awards, I included Dean's list and Phi Beta Kappa (didn't do this last cycle)



I know that this is a lot less than other successful reapplicants, but this is what I have unfortunately, and I have to stick with it.



Finally, my questions..
1. Is there anything I can do to improve my application at this point?
2. what schools should I apply to? I'm thinking about applying to 30 schools, and I really want to get into any medical school (GORO Plz HELP)
3. I know that re-app should have at least one asset compared to last cycle. I know I don't have those "asset", partially due to I had to work full-time job as a tutor to help my family. Do you think it's better for me to study for MCAT to prepare for the next cycle? I just lost all my confidence since last cycle. I don't know if i really should prepare for the worst.

 

[DrMidlife]

I don't see any red flags beyond what you've described. You should worry about your letters of recommendation, because these can be stealth bombs.

I'm guessing English isn't your first language. You're dropping your S's in writing which I didn't even know was a thing. If you also drop your S's in spoken English, you may be quite difficult to understand by native English speakers. This may be a serious issue.

I've worked with a number of 1st/2nd generation southeast Asian interns/residents who drop their S's, and also mix/match R's, L's, W's, V's etc. In my experience in medicine and in engineering, the southeast Asian kids who didn't start learning English in British schools at an early age are at a huge disadvantage in the US job market. In medical training, it's painful for everybody involved when the doc has to repeat him/herself over and over to be understood by a patient or attending. The content is perfectly fine, but the delivery is dead in the water. These are perfectly brilliant doctors whose careers are badly limited by pronunciation.

If I'm wrong, my apologies. But if English pronunciation is an issue for you, my suggestion would be to immerse yourself in an English-only environment, preferably with older well-educated Caucasians who will immediately object if they can't understand you. Such as at a nursing home. Regardless, I suggest the next right thing to do is find one older well-educated Caucasian who isn't overly polite, ask to have a conversation, and get their brutally honest opinion. (Also get their opinion on your essays.) It usually takes years of difficult, uncomfortable work to get past pronunciation barriers, and you only have a few months.

Best of luck to you.

 

[gyngyn]

Something went wrong with the interviews.

 

[Goro]

I know that you've fixed these some of these things, but the lackadaisical way you approached a MEDICAL SCHOOL app is concerning. I hope that you'll take the process more seriously now.
- I didn't have strong PS, but more importantly I spent less than an hour filling out work/activity and most meaningful essay because I thought it was like a college application. Personally I think this really was the primary weakness


-Being busy+cocky. Honestly, I thought I would get into some schools with my stats (at least state school) and due to my family's financial problem, I had to work full-time as soon as I got back. I knew submitting early was important, so I just wrote PS asap and filled out work/activity

-Probably interview skill - since I got some interview but didn't really turn them into acceptances. I mean, I didn't prepare for interviews anyways



I've think you've done a lot to improve. But the best thing will be work on interview skills.
1. Is there anything I can do to improve my application at this point?

Invest in MSAR Online and target schools whose median scores are closest to your own....even with a VR8, I think you're pretty golden now. Let's see YOUR list!
2. what schools should I apply to? I'm thinking about applying to 30 schools, and I really want to get into any medical school (GORO Plz HELP)

A paper in in a high-impact journal can't be sneezed at.
3. I know that re-app should have at least one asset compared to last cycle. I know I don't have those "asset", partially due to I had to work full-time job as a tutor to help my family.

As long as the MCAT is still good, I don't think a retake is in order.
Do you think it's better for me to study for MCAT to prepare for the next cycle? I just lost all my confidence since last cycle. I don't know if i really should prepare for the worst.

 

[quiktrip]

I don't see any red flags beyond what you've described. You should worry about your letters of recommendation, because these can be stealth bombs.

I'm guessing English isn't your first language. You're dropping your S's in writing which I didn't even know was a thing. If you also drop your S's in spoken English, you may be quite difficult to understand by native English speakers. This may be a serious issue.

I've worked with a number of 1st/2nd generation southeast Asian interns/residents who drop their S's, and also mix/match R's, L's, W's, V's etc. In my experience in medicine and in engineering, the southeast Asian kids who didn't start learning English in British schools at an early age are at a huge disadvantage in the US job market. In medical training, it's painful for everybody involved when the doc has to repeat him/herself over and over to be understood by a patient or attending. The content is perfectly fine, but the delivery is dead in the water. These are perfectly brilliant doctors whose careers are badly limited by pronunciation.

If I'm wrong, my apologies. But if English pronunciation is an issue for you, my suggestion would be to immerse yourself in an English-only environment, preferably with older well-educated Caucasians who will immediately object if they can't understand you. Such as at a nursing home. Regardless, I suggest the next right thing to do is find one older well-educated Caucasian who isn't overly polite, ask to have a conversation, and get their brutally honest opinion. (Also get their opinion on your essays.) It usually takes years of difficult, uncomfortable work to get past pronunciation barriers, and you only have a few months.

Best of luck to you.

Thank you for your comment.
Yes, English is my second (actually third) language; I came to United States when I was in high school. I am East Asian btw.
Personally, I don't think my English is a big concern, especially my pronunciation. Writing probably is my biggest enemy when it comes to English, but I got my essays checked by "native" speakers + my premed advisor.
Oh, and I don't think letters of rec are the problems. I mean, professors really really liked me.

 

[quiktrip]

Something went wrong with the interviews.

Yes. I also think interview played a significant role.

I don't think I bombed my interview personally. It wasn't great, but it wasn't bad.

I tried to analyze what went wrong with my interview, but this is kind of hard 🙁
could you recommend me some threads that have good interviewing tips?

 

[gyngyn]

Yes. I also think interview played a significant role.

I don't think I bombed my interview personally. It wasn't great, but it wasn't bad.

I tried to analyze what went wrong with my interview, but this is kind of hard 🙁
could you recommend me some threads that have good interviewing tips?

Does your undergrad offer mock interviews?

 

[quiktrip]

I know that you've fixed these some of these things, but the lackadaisical way you approached a MEDICAL SCHOOL app is concerning. I hope that you'll take the process more seriously now.
- I didn't have strong PS, but more importantly I spent less than an hour filling out work/activity and most meaningful essay because I thought it was like a college application. Personally I think this really was the primary weakness


-Being busy+cocky. Honestly, I thought I would get into some schools with my stats (at least state school) and due to my family's financial problem, I had to work full-time as soon as I got back. I knew submitting early was important, so I just wrote PS asap and filled out work/activity

-Probably interview skill - since I got some interview but didn't really turn them into acceptances. I mean, I didn't prepare for interviews anyways



I've think you've done a lot to improve. But the best thing will be work on interview skills.
1. Is there anything I can do to improve my application at this point?

Invest in MSAR Online and target schools whose median scores are closest to your own....even with a VR8, I think you're pretty golden now. Let's see YOUR list!
2. what schools should I apply to? I'm thinking about applying to 30 schools, and I really want to get into any medical school (GORO Plz HELP)

A paper in in a high-impact journal can't be sneezed at.
3. I know that re-app should have at least one asset compared to last cycle. I know I don't have those "asset", partially due to I had to work full-time job as a tutor to help my family.

As long as the MCAT is still good, I don't think a retake is in order.
Do you think it's better for me to study for MCAT to prepare for the next cycle? I just lost all my confidence since last cycle. I don't know if i really should prepare for the worst.

Hi, yeah I need some help with the list of schools

* means I applied last cycle
*** means I got interview
*Albany
***Albert Einstein
Baylor
*Boston
Case Western
Chicago Rosalind Franklin
Creighton (I'm not sure about this one yet because of the location)
*Dartmouth
Quinnipac
*George Washington
*Georgetown
Hofstra
Keck USC
Loyola Chicago
Mayo
***Medical College of Georgia
Mercer
*Emory (it's my state school, but I heard that if you want to reapply here, you need additional recommendation letters? I'm applying with same LOR)
New York Medical College
*NYU
Oregon Health Science Univ
Rush
St Louis
*Jefferson
*Temple
Tulane
*Tufts
Univ of Cincinnati
Univ of Miami
*U Pitt
***U Rochester
U of Vermont
Virginia Commonwealth
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest


I got FAP this year, so I can apply to lots of schools.
I submitted my primary app already, but I haven't started my secondaries yet.
What do you think about my list?

 

[quiktrip]

Does your undergrad offer mock interviews?

Yes. They do offer mock interview. I'm planning to visit there on September

 

[Goro]

Most interviewees are quite clueless as to how they do in an interview. And interviewers are trained ot be polite, even if they'd really prefer to throw you out the window.

I don't think I bombed my interview personally. It wasn't great, but it wasn't bad.

Google is your friend.
could you recommend me some threads that have good interviewing tips?

I suggest:

*Albany
Albert Einstein
*Boston
Case Western
Chicago Rosalind Franklin
Creighton
Quinnipac
*George Washington
*Georgetown
EVMS
Hofstra
Keck USC
Loyola Chicago
Mayo
Medical College of Georgia
Mercer
*Emory
New York Medical College
Rush
St Louis
*Jefferson
*Temple
Tulane
*Tufts
Univ of Cincinnati
Univ of Miami
***U Rochester
U of Vermont
Virginia Commonwealth
Virginia Tech
Wake Forest
Oakland B
Western MI

 

[ScienceNerd101]

1. Is there anything I can do to improve my application at this point?

You have the numbers/stats, you just need to convey yourself the best way possible to the admissions committee. I would recommend focusing on the AMCAS application a little more this cycle. During many of my interview's they had it on hand and referenced it to ask further questions. Treat filling out the activities section like mini essays. This minor adjustment should greatly help your case in the next cycle. Also, film yourself answering mock interview questions, this can make a huge difference! It's useful to be aware of body language, voice inflection, and how concise you are.

2. what schools should I apply to? I'm thinking about applying to 30 schools, and I really want to get into any medical school (GORO Plz HELP)

Apply to the same set of schools again (Except Hopkins--it seems like kind of a long shot with the 8 on VR) , but add the following:

EVMS, University of Maryland SOM, West Virginia, and PCOM. (PCOM would be a great safety school for you. However, it still has a great reputation/match rate, and would give you a opportunity to experience city medicine).

3. I know that re-app should have at least one asset compared to last cycle. I know I don't have those "asset", partially due to I had to work full-time job as a tutor to help my family. Do you think it's better for me to study for MCAT to prepare for the next cycle? I just lost all my confidence since last cycle. I don't know if i really should prepare for the worst.

No! With these modifications to your application you should be fine. Do NOT retake the MCAT. You have a fine score. The publication you had should be enough to improve the 'assets' of your application. Also, you only shadowed a oncologist and ENT?? Please try to get more shadowing in! Having a variety of shadowing's can definitely demonstrate to the committee your commitment to medicine. Also, the more shadowing you have, the more interesting conversations you can have within your interview. It will show admissions that you have a good concept of the medical field, and that you know what you want.

OVERALL: I personally feel your lack of success int he last cycle was not because of your numbers/stats, but because of your applications qualitative aspects. So improve your activity descriptions on your AMCAS, and prep more for your interviews.
It helps during the interview if you can talk about a recent book that you read. I read a medically relevant book (about the current state of the health-care system and the patient-physician interaction) which I could talk about during my interviews. This caused the interview to turn very conversational, which helped my cause! (Just don't read anything to political!) I feel if you can improve what I mentioned you will receive a few acceptances!

Good Luck!

 

[GrapesofRath]

You got interviews at Cornell, Rochester and Einstein. That does not signal your application was the problem last cycle despite you admitting you did a poor job with writing it. Everybody on here has given all the advice I would particularly with interviews but I'll just add keep perspective and keep your head up. If you are getting wait listed from your state school with those stats, that does indicate a clear problem with the interview in all likelyhood. You have made significant improvements to an application that got some very good interviews last cycle. Spend more time on your app, apply broader this time, and of course practice the interviews and you'll come up with better results.

 

[quiktrip]

1. Is there anything I can do to improve my application at this point?

You have the numbers/stats, you just need to convey yourself the best way possible to the admissions committee. I would recommend focusing on the AMCAS application a little more this cycle. During many of my interview's they had it on hand and referenced it to ask further questions. Treat filling out the activities section like mini essays. This minor adjustment should greatly help your case in the next cycle. Also, film yourself answering mock interview questions, this can make a huge difference! It's useful to be aware of body language, voice inflection, and how concise you are.

2. what schools should I apply to? I'm thinking about applying to 30 schools, and I really want to get into any medical school (GORO Plz HELP)

Apply to the same set of schools again (Except Hopkins--it seems like kind of a long shot with the 8 on VR) , but add the following:

EVMS, University of Maryland SOM, West Virginia, and PCOM. (PCOM would be a great safety school for you. However, it still has a great reputation/match rate, and would give you a opportunity to experience city medicine).

3. I know that re-app should have at least one asset compared to last cycle. I know I don't have those "asset", partially due to I had to work full-time job as a tutor to help my family. Do you think it's better for me to study for MCAT to prepare for the next cycle? I just lost all my confidence since last cycle. I don't know if i really should prepare for the worst.

No! With these modifications to your application you should be fine. Do NOT retake the MCAT. You have a fine score. The publication you had should be enough to improve the 'assets' of your application. Also, you only shadowed a oncologist and ENT?? Please try to get more shadowing in! Having a variety of shadowing's can definitely demonstrate to the committee your commitment to medicine. Also, the more shadowing you have, the more interesting conversations you can have within your interview. It will show admissions that you have a good concept of the medical field, and that you know what you want.

OVERALL: I personally feel your lack of success int he last cycle was not because of your numbers/stats, but because of your applications qualitative aspects. So improve your activity descriptions on your AMCAS, and prep more for your interviews.
It helps during the interview if you can talk about a recent book that you read. I read a medically relevant book (about the current state of the health-care system and the patient-physician interaction) which I could talk about during my interviews. This caused the interview to turn very conversational, which helped my cause! (Just don't read anything to political!) I feel if you can improve what I mentioned you will receive a few acceptances!

Good Luck!

Thank you for the advice!!
I am currently debating whether to apply to some DO schools as well..

 

[quiktrip]

You got interviews at Cornell, Rochester and Einstein. That does not signal your application was the problem last cycle despite you admitting you did a poor job with writing it. Everybody on here has given all the advice I would particularly with interviews but I'll just add keep perspective and keep your head up. If you are getting wait listed from your state school with those stats, that does indicate a clear problem with the interview in all likelyhood. You have made significant improvements to an application that got some very good interviews last cycle. Spend more time on your app, apply broader this time, and of course practice the interviews and you'll come up with better results.

Yes. The fact that I got interviews from 4 schools probably means that my application wasn't that bad. But I did literally spend less than an hour writing most meaningful essay and work/activity section. Honestly, I'm surprised that they gave me interview. My first interview was with my state school, and I really do think that I bombed that interview. I wasn't really prepared for some questions. However, for the other interviews, I thought I did okay. Some interviewers even told me that they have the highest recommendation for me. It's just really hard to analyze what went wrong with my application. I think my cocky approach toward medical school application is one thing, and interview probably is another thing. I'm going to start pre-writing my secondary tomorrow, and hopefully get all the applications complete by mid-july. Then I will start to prepare for interview..

Thank you for your advice, I really mean it. Medical school application is truly agonizing. And especially as a re-applicant, I really start to have doubts on every single steps I took during last application cycle, which is just discouraging. I had an exit interview with my state school; I asked what can I do to improve my application. He said my application was strong, but just not as competitive. He said he wants to see more shadowing this year, and that I should apply EDP. He declined to make any comments on interview (it is their policy). I started shadowing in May, 2015 (in addition to hospital volunteering since March 2015), so hopefully it will work out.

 

[URMD]

Yea, I think you just didn't take it seriously enough. You've obviously learnt that the hard way by losing 1yr of 200K+ attending salary but im sure if you prepare your application properly and spend quality time on interview prep you will be fine.

Your school list looks good as well.

Don't make the same mistake once your actually in school the consequence is usually just as bad or worse. Always take everything seriously and always put in your best effort - you will just feel better about yourself at the end of the day if you do.

good luck!

 

[quiktrip]

Yea, I think you just didn't take it seriously enough. You've obviously learnt that the hard way by losing 1yr of 200K+ attending salary but im sure if you prepare your application properly and spend quality time on interview prep you will be fine.

Your school list looks good as well.

Don't make the same mistake once your actually in school the consequence is usually just as bad or worse. Always take everything seriously and always put in your best effort - you will just feel better about yourself at the end of the day if you do.

good luck!

thank you.
I will start pre-writing the secondaries and hopefully prepare for interviews.

 

[mathnerd88]

Are you a US citizen? I know this has a significant impact on many applicants.

 

[quiktrip]

Are you a US citizen? I know this has a significant impact on many applicants.

I do have a green card (not citizen, but legal resident)

 

[mathnerd88]

I do have a green card (not citizen, but legal resident)

I had a friend who had a 3.85 gpa (both BCPM and cumulative) with a 37 MCAT. Not being a citizen and only a green card holder really hurt him. Once he got his citizenship, he received many interviews.

Just personally, my friend's experience.

 

[quiktrip]

sorry for bumping up,

Do you guys recommend applying for DO school as well?

I haven't shadowed any DO doctor so I'm worried, and I didn't even start the application.

I'm really worried about not getting into any school this year..

I think I will be able to submit my MD secondaries by mid-july, so I will have time to fill out DO applications

Any thoughts?

 

[Grace184]

I think you need to look into/contact DO admissions individually about taking green card status students. I was unaware of the restrictions until mathnerd pointed it out.

 

[DrMidlife]

yeah it's my recent understanding that a green card doesn't level the playing field. might be the equivalent of being international with access to student loans - which generally means you have to be a top 5% applicant.

 

[jayceee]

yeah it's my recent understanding that a green card doesn't level the playing field. might be the equivalent of being international with access to student loans - which generally means you have to be a top 5% applicant.

I'm not sure where you heard this from, but it's not true. Green card holders are permanent residents of the U.S. Only thing you can't do as a green card holder is vote. You're considered under the same category as American citizens when applying to schools--including in-state tuition and merit scholarships. This applies to the residency/match process as well.

I had to make sure I knew all this stuff before moving down here from Canada to increase my MD admissions options.

http://web.jhu.edu/prepro/health/Applicants/international.applicants.html <--- First paragraph.

http://web.jhu.edu/prepro/Forms/International.Students.MS.Policies.pdf

 

[DrMidlife]

It's also illegal to discriminate on age, gender, body habitus, religion, hygiene, attractiveness, state of origin, USNR ranking of undergrad school, whether they've ever heard of your letter writers, whether you played sports in college or not, etc. It's probably illegal to get rejected because "nobody likes you". Med school admissions are subjective.

The point is that there are plenty of places in the US with a baked-in anti-immigrant bias (ahem southern Texas ahem Maricopa county). You're not being interviewed by a judge, you're being interviewed by a local physician or faculty member with biases, who will subjectively evaluate your candidacy. Fairness isn't real when there are 5000 apps per 150 seats at the average med school. The default choice with every app is to throw it out.

Basically I'm advising any recent greencard holder to not assume they'll be evaluated exactly the same as a long time citizen whose parents have paid taxes for many years. Apply early and broadly and have a thick skin.

 

[SpicyFalafel]

I haven't shadowed any DO doctor so I'm worried, and I didn't even start the application.

If you're considering DO schools I can provide you with couple contacts in Ga.