Re-Application Advice

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Rothgar

Member
7+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
20+ Year Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2003
Messages
45
Reaction score
0
So, here's the deal: I am waitlisted at an Osteopathic school and there's a pretty good chance that I'll get in. On the other hand, I recently re-took the MCAT and and pretty much killed it. So now I'm thinking that I might have a shot at gaining an MD acceptance for Fall 2005.

- I've gotten several interviews over the last two application cycles and a couple of waitlists with my current numbers and a MCAT of 27. Plus, I'm about to graduate with my MPH and I think that might help too. So I think I'm close.

- There's the debt issue. My state schools would set me back, max, $100K, while the Osteo school's debt load would (@ a minimum) cost at least $200K. 😱 I am not making that number up. And with the increased debt load, there would be more pressure to specialize in order to pay off the debt.

So my questions are:

1) Am I being stupid by not trying to get off the school's waitlist (by sending in my new MCAT score, additional LORs, and more LOI's)?

2) How much difference would the improved score make at schools where I previously applied and was either WL'd or rejected?

3) What would you do in my situation?

Thanks in advance.
 
Hey I'm just an Average Joe pre-med but in my opinion a jump from 29-35+ or whatever you meant by "killing it" is very significant in affecting your application. As is the commitment to completing the mph.

If I were you I would think about what I wanted to do for residency in combination with where I was willing to spend the years completing it. If your answer is a compettitive residency and not willing to live anywhere then I would hold out and reapply for allopathic. I know that the idea is very sensitive for some osteopathic students but just keep it real to yourself and look at some of the residency forums for an indication of the obstacles that DO's have of getting certain resisdencies in nice locations.

On the contrary if you're an ACE student and confident in your ability to stand out as a med student then it doesn't matter as much.

Good luck,--Ben.
 
You were waitlisted at a DO school. That says it all. First you should wait to get into the DO school before you say anything. It's almost the end of June and I doubt you will even get in. It looks like you have to reapply anyway. Three times is a lot of applying and you would have been better served applying DO in the first year you applied. You would have been a 3rd year by now. That's pretty sad. 👍
 
Luck, I think its pretty sad that you not only feel the need to put someone down, but that you also lack any sort of compassion that we would hope to find in a future physician. The medicall school admissions process is different for everyone and that is largely because of the admissions system that is set up. It does not give you the right to make character judgements on people who may have fallen through the cracks for a multitude of reasons. And for the record, more of than not, those people who keep trying, who COULD have been 2nd year residents by now, demonstrate a committment that I believe should be admired rather than demonished. Lastly, I have plenty of friends who are in this position and I can tell you that they have a greater sense of lost time and the distance still left to dig than anyone out there, including some stranger who feels his guilt tripping parental two cents is worth something. You don't have to tell these people what they already know, which is probably what motivates them. How many times have you tried to put yourself through the ringer again after facing a setback?

My question to you is this- when you have a patient who presents heart failure, what are you going to tell him or her? "It looks like you don't stand a chance? Three times I've tried to warn you and you would have been better served not coming to me at all since you cleary didn't succeed in addressing this thing the first time around? Too bad your days are limited now. That's pretty sad."

Grow up.
 
wow anitra627!!! I couldn't have said it better myself. some people have alot of nerves passing judgement on others. 👍 👍

Luck 🙄 who are you to pass judgement on anybody? what's wrong with the OP thinking ahead of the game? maybe you should have tried it yourself before you opened your mouth to down peoples ideas. try to be a little more thoughtful of others and a little less of yourself!! 👍 👍
 
hav you considered whether you truly want ot be a DO? i realize that for some people the idea of a DO is sort of a "fall back" after not feeling competative for the allopathic programs, and for others its truly what they want to practice. the medicine and the approach are actually pretty different, when it all comes down to it. though in the end you can specialize in pretty much anything, so i guess thats not a real issue.

maybe you should consider that -- though i realize that's just one more thing that you may not want to factor in.
 
lynnier79 said:
hav you considered whether you truly want ot be a DO? i realize that for some people the idea of a DO is sort of a "fall back" after not feeling competative for the allopathic programs, and for others its truly what they want to practice. the medicine and the approach are actually pretty different, when it all comes down to it. though in the end you can specialize in pretty much anything, so i guess thats not a real issue.

maybe you should consider that -- though i realize that's just one more thing that you may not want to factor in.


I agree wholeheartedly. HOWEVER -- remember that despite your new MCAT score, you are not assured a spot in a MD program. I think you have some decent reasons for reapplying (financial, etc.), but it would be so sad if you didn't get into MD schools, and you could have been in a DO program. Sorry I don't really have anything special to add, except I just gave you more to think about...

Good Luck!
 
anitra627 said:
Luck, I think its pretty sad that you not only feel the need to put someone down, but that you also lack any sort of compassion that we would hope to find in a future physician. The medicall school admissions process is different for everyone and that is largely because of the admissions system that is set up. It does not give you the right to make character judgements on people who may have fallen through the cracks for a multitude of reasons. And for the record, more of than not, those people who keep trying, who COULD have been 2nd year residents by now, demonstrate a committment that I believe should be admired rather than demonished. Lastly, I have plenty of friends who are in this position and I can tell you that they have a greater sense of lost time and the distance still left to dig than anyone out there, including some stranger who feels his guilt tripping parental two cents is worth something. You don't have to tell these people what they already know, which is probably what motivates them. How many times have you tried to put yourself through the ringer again after facing a setback?

My question to you is this- when you have a patient who presents heart failure, what are you going to tell him or her? "It looks like you don't stand a chance? Three times I've tried to warn you and you would have been better served not coming to me at all since you cleary didn't succeed in addressing this thing the first time around? Too bad your days are limited now. That's pretty sad."

Grow up.
The OP assumed he would get into the DO school even though he was waitlisted and it's already June. He is assuming he has the DO acceptance in hand and has the audacity to ask if he should just apply again to MD schools without the DO acceptance already in hand.

His lack of respect for DO school warrants what I wrote in my post. Perhaps you don't care that he dicks around DO schools like it's some awful backup school for him but I won't stand for it. 👍
 
Luck said:
The OP assumed he would get into the DO school even though he was waitlisted and it's already June. He is assuming he has the DO acceptance in hand and has the audacity to ask if he should just apply again to MD schools without the DO acceptance already in hand.

His lack of respect for DO school warrants what I wrote in my post. Perhaps you don't care that he dicks around DO schools like it's some awful backup school for him but I won't stand for it. 👍

i'm with you luck. too many people disrespect DO schools. the OP should reapply to allo. schools regardless if he gets in or not this year.
 
The bottom line is, "A bird in hand is worth two in the bush."

The fact is, even if you got a 40 on the MCAT, you are not guaranteed admission to an MD school.

The best course of action is: wait to see if you get accepted to the DO school; if you get in, go. If you do not get in, reapply to both MD and DO next year.
 
Why are some osteopathic students and applicants so sensitive to this type of inquiry? Your reponses to a simple line of questioning have been emotional overpoliticized and off topic to the OP. If you are happy with being a DO we're happy for you. But for those of us who are trying to build up our applications while considering which road to take we will try to ascertain the implications of different eventualities. We would like to do so without all your issues.--Ben
 
Luck and all you other oversensitve osteopathic students/premeds-

I never said that I was against going to an osteopathic school; however it's interesting how a relatively innocuous question leads to such a severe attack from the militantly pro-osteo students. Truly this is one of the worst aspects of the not-yet-an-Osteopathic-physician attitude: lots of defensiveness and "Well **** for questioning us" b/s. I truly hope that you guys realize that 99% of the world doesn't give a rat's ass about the diff in the real world.

For me a doctor is a doctor is a doctor. However, someone else brought up (some weeks ago) their concerns with the massive amount of debt Osteopathic MS graduates assume. A lot of the respondents to that guy said patently naive things like, and I'm paraphrasing, "Well, you'll be making XXX $$ per year if you go DO, so don't worry about it." But $200K+ in debt does make a difference. It affects your choices in specialty, in pathways to eliminate the burden, etc. Gaining admission to an allo school in my home state would save me mucho dinero in the long run. [Also, FWIW, my 27 was like four years old and was obtained before my massive improvement in postbacc and MPH classes].

Anyway, I was just asking a hypothetical. I'm trying to figure out the best path for my life. I've got some choices to make, it's mid-June, and I thought that I would ask for advice.

And Luck, lemme give you a little bit of advice: think before you speak, and realize that the way that you have responded in this thread reveals way more about your own bitter feelings and disappointments than you possibly know. For what it's worth, if I decide to go DO I will do so with no regrets and much excitement. I hope you feel that way about the choice that you made.

Peace.
 
Rothgar said:
Luck and all you other oversensitve osteopathic students/premeds-

I never said that I was against going to an osteopathic school; however it's interesting how a relatively innocuous question leads to such a severe attack from the militantly pro-osteo students. Truly this is one of the worst aspects of the not-yet-an-Osteopathic-physician attitude: lots of defensiveness and "Well **** for questioning us" b/s. I truly hope that you guys realize that 99% of the world doesn't give a rat's ass about the diff in the real world.

For me a doctor is a doctor is a doctor. However, someone else brought up (some weeks ago) their concerns with the massive amount of debt Osteopathic MS graduates assume. A lot of the respondents to that guy said patently naive things like, and I'm paraphrasing, "Well, you'll be making XXX $$ per year if you go DO, so don't worry about it." But $200K+ in debt does make a difference. It affects your choices in specialty, in pathways to eliminate the burden, etc. Gaining admission to an allo school in my home state would save me mucho dinero in the long run. [Also, FWIW, my 27 was like four years old and was obtained before my massive improvement in postbacc and MPH classes].

Anyway, I was just asking a hypothetical. I'm trying to figure out the best path for my life. I've got some choices to make, it's mid-June, and I thought that I would ask for advice.

And Luck, lemme give you a little bit of advice: think before you speak, and realize that the way that you have responded in this thread reveals way more about your own bitter feelings and disappointments than you possibly know. For what it's worth, if I decide to go DO I will do so with no regrets and much excitement. I hope you feel that way about the choice that you made.

Peace.
I'd say apply to MD schools with the new MCAT score. You said you had interviews w/ a 27. Granted if the rest of the application is still strong, I think you stand an even better shot this time around.
Worse come to worse, with your 'killer score', you will most probably get into a DO school again next year. So I think its worth waiting a year and reapplying to both MD and DO schools.

P.S. Luck and all other pro-osteopathic students, dont jump down my throat for saying he will most probably get into a DO school next year. I am not 'dicking' the DO schools around but with a 'killer score' like rothgar's, it only stands to common sense that he has an even more stronger shot at DO schools than he did last year.

P.P.S. Rothgar, out of curiosity, what exactly is your 'killer score'?
 
I think both camps should go to their respective corner and take a breather.

To the OP: Whether or not you want to re-apply, I can't help you because I don't know what you truly want, seek, or desire. The loan/debt issue is a concern, as well as having a distintive DO (instead of an MD). Whether you want to learn OMM (or think it is a complete waste of time) is another factor. You know what your priorities are, and thus only you can weigh them properly. For some, the end result is DO > MD, for others, it's MD > DO. It might come down to state > private. My one advice though is to not pick a speciality based on $$$ but more on what you want to do. Although getting paid a lot is great, and having 3 Mercedes in the drive way feels satisfying, money won't bring happiness. You want to go to work for the next 20-40 years in a field that you like, not a field that you hate (but pays well). I will admit, however, that following this advice is easier said (or typed) than done.


In regards to (pre)osteopathic student hypersensitivity - I beg you to give us some leeway. If you have been on SDN for a while, you will know that every so often, people will come onto the board asking questions such as "can I specialize in anything else besides family medicine as a DO?" or "are you guys real physicians?". You might even see comments like "apply DO, they take everyone" or questions like "I have a 2.05 cum gpa (1.55 science gpa) and an MCAT score of 15L. Can I get into DO school?"
Now a lot of these questions are genuine. Some are obvious flame-bait. There are those that aren't obvious. So innocent questions or comments might be mis-interpreted as hostile. Comments such as "geez, don't be so hypersensitive" doesn't really help matters (imagine saying that comment to female or an african american after he/she mistook an innocent statement to be perjorative in nature). Perhaps a more diplomatic solution would be to state that the original statement wasn't meant to be hostile, and hope the reader will understand.

Osteopathic Medicine is our choosen profession, and emotions can run high, esp if it is perceived (rightfully or wrongfully) that it is under attack.

Anyway, I hope what I have just said made sense (and didn't fan any flames or start an international incident). To the OP, good luck. I know the decision is a difficult one (life-alterning decisions are never easy). Just know that whatever you decide, we (as health care professionals and/or students) will remain supportive.

Group_theory
PCOM 2007
 
group_theory said:
In regards to (pre)osteopathic student hypersensitivity - I beg you to give us some leeway. If you have been on SDN for a while, you will know that every so often, people will come onto the board asking questions such as "can I specialize in anything else besides family medicine as a DO?" or "are you guys real physicians?". You might even see comments like "apply DO, they take everyone" or questions like "I have a 2.05 cum gpa (1.55 science gpa) and an MCAT score of 15L. Can I get into DO school?"
Now a lot of these questions are genuine. Some are obvious flame-bait. There are those that aren't obvious. So innocent questions or comments might be mis-interpreted as hostile. Comments such as "geez, don't be so hypersensitive" doesn't really help matters (imagine saying that comment to female or an african american after he/she mistook an innocent statement to be perjorative in nature). Perhaps a more diplomatic solution would be to state that the original statement wasn't meant to be hostile, and hope the reader will understand.
I couldn't agree more group theory. That was well articulated. Perhaps I was a bit harsh reading my previous post.

It is just that I find it funny and bordering on insulting when the OP casually stated that he will most likely get in off the waitlist at the DO school when it's almost the end of June. His whole tone sounded a bit arrogant as if his high MCAT score would assure him a place at the DO school.

OP, make sure you have the acceptance in your hand first before you have such a condescending tone. The reality right now is that you have no medical acceptances MD or DO and you SHOULD NOT assume that the DO one is in the bag. With that said, all you can do is apply again with your new MCAT scores and hope you get in somewhere.
 
I think this discussion is good. I'm glad we can understand each other. The reason I'm personally poking at this issue is because I'm planning on applying to both osteopathic and allopathic and will go wherever I get in first and then whatever school will get me more easily into an allopathic E.M. residency in an urban area. So I evaluate strategies purely from this standpoint, not from any inherent judgement on DO's or DO education.

But what concerns me is a vibe that I pick up from the DO scene that one has to be on philosophically higher ground to go DO or something vague about the hollistic aspects of being a D.O. Futhermore that one has to demonstrate some sort of allegiance to this groupthink to be considered legit for osteopathic adcoms or students.

Forgive me but it is at this point that my bullsh*t detector is in the red. I just don't buy into the fact that osteopathic education is somehow focused on producing more hollistic doctors. They are in business charging higher prices for what seem to me to be less clinical training sites. I could be wrong in this regard. But I implore the osteopaths to describe their experiences here. But for the benefit of us all let's not proflagate elaborate emotional justifications for the protection of our egos. Just keep it real.--Ben.
 
The following is a DO's take on the MD vs DO thing. This DO is the director of a allopathic radiation residency program.

"Subject: RE: A question from a student
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 21:13:08 -0500
Dear Amy,

This is an interesting debate, and one which has been ongoing since A.T. Still was making his rounds in Missouri in the late 1800s. I graduated from PCOM in 1986 and remember hearing something during my first year about a supposed study that was performed by the ACGME or some other allopathic body looking at the average credentials of osteopathic first year medical students vs. those of first year allopathic students. Apparently, the purpose of the study was to determine if there was a difference between M.D. and D.O. students academically.

Supposedly, the study found that there was no statistically significant difference between the two groups with respect to MCAT scores, grades, etc, but to my knowledge, the study was never published. My father is a D.O. and I became an osteopathic physician because I admired the way my father practiced medicine. I was really not aware of the differences between the way M.D.s and D.O.s were regarded, or the issues D.O.s faced once they reached the level of postgraduate training and clinical practice.

I didn't apply to any allopathic schools. I believed then, and I believe now, there is no meaningful difference between the quality of education received by D.O.s and M.D.s at the medical school level. The curricula, resources, and faculty are very similar - sometimes even identical and shared between schools. However, I believe that in postgraduate training, and especially when it comes to subspecialty fields, there may be enormous differences in the opportunities available to D.O.s.

To say that D.O.s are believed inferior to M.D.s in the working world of health care is to paint with a very broad brush to say the least. However, when individuals are being considered for competitive postgraduate training opportunities at academic allopathic institutions, D.O.s are definitely at a disadvantage. There are some individuals in the academic allopathic world (and probably more than a few in osteopathic medicine as well) who believe that many (even most?) individuals who end up in an osteopathic medical school do so for the same reason some people end up attending medical school in the Caribbean - because they were rejected from M.D. schools. And let's face it - for some individuals this is indeed the case.

Hopefully, most people who pursue an osteopathic education do so because they find the osteopathic philosophy appealing. Because some people (even in my own institution) do feel this way, I believe osteopathic students and residents have to work that much harder to put their best efforts forward at all times. When we have the occasional resident who comes through our department who is not where he or she should be in terms of knowledge base, or worse, in terms of effort put forth, they may be looked at differently by some depending on the initials after their name. If their degree is M.D., a comment might be "dumb", or "geeze, he's lazy!". If the person is a D.O., the comment might be "Oh, he's a D.O." as if such behavior or performance is less surprising because less is expected of that person.

The most important thing for any D.O. (let's face it - for any physician) to do is to always put their full effort into their work. There is no substitute for work ethic and dedication. Would I do it again? I would. I have had some measure of success in the allopathic world and I am proud of my training and background. Maybe some of my success was just being in the right place at the right time, but I hope it was because when I was given the chance to compete with M.D.s on their turf, I gave enough effort to be seen not as a D.O. trying to compete in an M.D.'s world, but just as another physician in training, and then as faculty, who was doing a good job.

Some others, however, may have difficulty getting the chance to show what they're made of; some subspecialty fields are so competitive, D.O.s may find it harder to get the opportunity to train in them at large academic institutions. Unfortunately, there are very few large academic osteopathic institutions, and I believe that these types of institutions, in general, are at an advantage in terms of the ability to provide the best subspecialty education and training in some fields.

However, most physicians end up in private practice or on staff at smaller institutions with completely mixed staffs and whether one is an M.D. or a D.O. is completely irrelevant. Also, there is little difference in training between allopathic and osteopathic institutions in primary care and general medical fields. There are other issues as well with regard to primary care vs. specialty fields, and the choices of M.D.s vs. D.O.s, but this is a separate discussion. I would be happy to discuss these things with you in more detail if you would like.

Best of luck in your future training. If the right effort is put into your career, you can achieve any goals you set for yourself. I am proud of my osteopathic background and I know that D.O.s are equal to M.D.s in every way. Don't ever be ashamed or embarrassed by your choices.

Sincerely,
Philip D. Orons, D.O.
Associate Professor of Radiology
Director, Radiology Residency Program
UPMC Health System"
 
Top