Has anybody re-applied to MD programs after starting at a DO school? The idea would be to start as a MS-1 after the first year of osteopathic medical school.
Re-applying to MD programs while in first year of DO school
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Why bother? Now adays a lot of DO do exactly the same thing as MDs, surgery, ER, family practice hell I bet you can even find a DO dermatologist
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meh. Better luck if you first became a DO. Then completed residency. Then maybe apply. Troll?
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Trust me u wouldn't want to repeat ms1 .. Horrible!
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applying for med school while in med school......brillant! 
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yeah alot of DO's do family practice and a only few get into cool subspecialties. That is the issue. Also, I am interested in doing research and, there is none going on around hear.
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here
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This is such an incredibly silly (and selfish) idea, I can't believe anyone would honestly entertain it.
To answer the question you asked in your duplicate thread, yes, you run the risk of alienating your current school. ("Alienating" is probably putting it mildly.)
Not just that, but you are stealing a seat from someone who would have loved to have taken your seat, would have stayed for all 4 years, and would have actually contributed positively to that school.
Finally, I find it hard to believe that any MD school would even LOOK at your app if they knew that you were an OMS-1. But, if you don't tell them, and they catch you lying, that's even worse. SO you're kind of between a rock and a hard place, really.
If you really want to go MD, and really think that you have a better chance of attaining your long term goals as an MD, apply to only MD schools. It's that simple. Don't screw over a bunch of people because you were a poor planner.
To answer the question you asked in your duplicate thread, yes, you run the risk of alienating your current school. ("Alienating" is probably putting it mildly.)
Not just that, but you are stealing a seat from someone who would have loved to have taken your seat, would have stayed for all 4 years, and would have actually contributed positively to that school.
Finally, I find it hard to believe that any MD school would even LOOK at your app if they knew that you were an OMS-1. But, if you don't tell them, and they catch you lying, that's even worse. SO you're kind of between a rock and a hard place, really.
If you really want to go MD, and really think that you have a better chance of attaining your long term goals as an MD, apply to only MD schools. It's that simple. Don't screw over a bunch of people because you were a poor planner.
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This is a horrible idea.
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I get what you're saying. That being said, I think that that's a decision that you have to make BEFORE you sign the letter of intent and pay your deposit for the DO school that did take you. Do you want to be a physician (and pick a specialty based on your Step 1/grades/options as a DO later), or do you absolutely have to be a surgical subspecialist/dermatologist/radiologist/rad onc? While I don't know if a pre-med can honestly make this kind of informed decision, if you strongly feel that you would like to pursue something competitive, but decide to take that DO seat anyway, and then, in a fit of buyer's remorse decide to re-apply to an MD school, then that's just silly.
Furthermore, let's say that you are a 1st year at a DO school, and then decide to re-apply to an MD school while you're an OMS-1. What would be the point? Your 3.4/29 didn't get better while you were an OMS-1. You likely weren't involved in Nobel-prize winning research while you were an OMS-1. So how is your application to an MD school going to be so much better this time around? You're going to be in such a better position to grab that allopathic spot?
Fair enough.
While it's not charity, I look at it the same way as I do at people who apply for categorical positions, knowing full well that they don't plan on staying past PGY-1 if they manage to match into derm/ortho/anesthesia/rads the second time around. While you could argue that you don't owe anything to your fellow residents, screwing them over when it comes to the call schedule the following year is a pretty crappy thing to do.
Similarly, you could argue that, no, a med student doesn't owe their faculty or other prospective med students anything. But I think that common decency demands that you don't take an opportunity, knowing full well that you plan on wasting it.
The MD school would know know of current OMS-1 status, all university course work has to be reported on the amcas and a transcript must be sent.
The DO school may or may not notice the transcript request depending on if the DO program or the larger university handles student records.
There have been reports of DO students transferring to MD programs under extreme circumstances, like family issues. That would also be a motivation in the re-application.
It's funny how every allopathic student on SDN is under the impression that going to a DO school means that you cannot match into a specialty after graduation.
These are the DO graduates and their residency matches for AOA programs only (for 2005-2006):
http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/2006statrpt/Documents/page 51.pdf
You can do a search for the DOs that are in ACGME specialty residencies.
I know it's incredibly hard to believe how a bunch of quacks (i.e. "osteopaths") can actually become specialists, but trust me. Once you become doctors you'll find us EVERYWHERE (scary, isn't it?)
If you're going to have trouble matching into a competitive specialty as a DO, you'll have the same -if not more- trouble matching into it as an MD. An average or mediocre DO student does not become a superstar MD student just because he/she switches schools.
These are the DO graduates and their residency matches for AOA programs only (for 2005-2006):
http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/2006statrpt/Documents/page 51.pdf
You can do a search for the DOs that are in ACGME specialty residencies.
I know it's incredibly hard to believe how a bunch of quacks (i.e. "osteopaths") can actually become specialists, but trust me. Once you become doctors you'll find us EVERYWHERE (scary, isn't it?)
If you're going to have trouble matching into a competitive specialty as a DO, you'll have the same -if not more- trouble matching into it as an MD. An average or mediocre DO student does not become a superstar MD student just because he/she switches schools.
Furthermore, let's say that you are a 1st year at a DO school, and then decide to re-apply to an MD school while you're an OMS-1. What would be the point? Your 3.4/29 didn't get better while you were an OMS-1. You likely weren't involved in Nobel-prize winning research while you were an OMS-1. So how is your application to an MD school going to be so much better this time around? You're going to be in such a better position to grab that allopathic spot?
My "3.4/29" was a 3.79/31 which is fairly good for the MD program i'm thinking about and did improve some since the last application cycle.
My "3.4/29" was a 3.79/31 which is fairly good for the MD program i'm thinking about and did improve some since the last application cycle.
It's funny how every allopathic student on SDN is under the impression that going to a DO school means that you cannot match into a specialty after graduation.
These are the DO graduates and their residency matches for AOA programs only (for 2005-2006):
http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/2006statrpt/Documents/page 51.pdf
You can do a search for the DOs that are in ACGME specialty residencies.
I know it's incredibly hard to believe how a bunch of quacks (i.e. "osteopaths") can actually become specialists, but trust me. Once you become doctors you'll find us EVERYWHERE (scary, isn't it?)
If you're going to have trouble matching into a competitive specialty as a DO, you'll have the same -if not more- trouble matching into it as an MD. An average or mediocre DO student does not become a superstar MD student just because he/she switches schools.
A good DO student could become a good MD student with more access to subspecialty rotations and subspecialty faculty and more research opportunities just because he/she switches schools.
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It doesn't seem like a good idea to me, but I know someone who pulled this off. She got into VCU. When asked why she wanted to transfer, she simply said, "I wanted to go here all along but you didn't accept me the first time I applied. I still want to go here." I'm surprised it worked but I guess it's possible.
Why is this surprising? It seems very similar to somebody doing a special master's pre-med program and then being seen positively as a re-applicant.
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I don't know if I would equate an SMP with a DO program. SMPs are designed to be 1 or 2 years in length; DO programs are clearly meant to be 4.
OP, I guess I don't get it. Did you know all along that you'd want to do a competitive specialty? And did you feel all along that DOs have a harder time getting into those specialties? If so, why not do an SMP, instead of apply DO? 😕
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Dude.... wtf
Your stats were ok. if you actually wanted to get into an MD school, you shoulda just improved on your weak areas in your app and then reapplied. To go into OMS-1 and then trying to transfer to a MD program is not only foolish, but its just plain insulting to your DO school. You shoulda gave up your seat to someone who really wanted it.
What you did pisses me off.
Look to my avatar. Thats me giving you the middle finger.
Your stats were ok. if you actually wanted to get into an MD school, you shoulda just improved on your weak areas in your app and then reapplied. To go into OMS-1 and then trying to transfer to a MD program is not only foolish, but its just plain insulting to your DO school. You shoulda gave up your seat to someone who really wanted it.
What you did pisses me off.
Look to my avatar. Thats me giving you the middle finger.
It appears to be clear that DO's have a harder time getting into competitive specialties. It is a recent feeling that I would greatly prefer some of the more competitive specialties over "easier to match/primary care" residencies.
Thanks for the bird. This is just any idea i came up with yesterday that I am "thinking through." I am thrilled to be were I am but there are two schools, closer to family with more research going on, at which I would absolutely prefer to be.
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An alternative would be to finish the first two years at DO, take USMLE Step I, and apply for transfer for the clinical years. If family hardship is a valid concern, and the MD school accepts transfers and has a slot, you have a decent chance. No time or money lost that way. Besides, that Step I will also be an indicator whether you have a shot at the more competitive specialties.
But what you propose has been done. Happened in my class. Guy got into MD school and just disappeared one day.
I agreee.
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I guess my take on this is to just work harder.
As mentioned, DOs can match into any allopathic residency pretty much. They just have to work their ass off and rock everything.
Do that, and this whole thing is a null point.
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It's hard enough for allopaths to match into fields like Derm, plastics, ent, urology etc. If OP knows for sure they want to do a specialty like that going DO makes it extremely tough and working hard isn't enough, you have to be lucky and know the right people as well.
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True - but repeating MS-1 as an allopathic student after finishing it as a osteopathic student is just foolish.
The OP probably shouldn't have taken a DO spot from the first place if they wanted research and a competitive sub-specialty.
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I completely disagree that it's similar as doing a special master's pre-med program.DO schools are not places you go to improve your application to go to an MD school . DO schools are places for people who want to commit to a 4 year program and graduate with the letters D.O behind their names.
If I was on the ADCOM committee I'd be like "WTF, did you NOT know what you were signing up for when you decided to matriculate as a D.O. student?"
That being said. The idea above about trying to transfer as a 3rd year after taking STEP 1 seems to make the most sense to me. If you truly feel that transferring to an M.D. school would be better, that's what I think you should do. Tell the transferring/admissions committee that you want to be closer to your family...blah blah blah
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I think the adcom would be like: "So... did you give any thought to the pre-DO student who wanted your spot in the school?..."
This isn't even a transfer issue where there is indeed a missing hole in the accepting school's roster. You took away a DO matriculation spot one year, and then you're aiming to take away an MD matriculation spot the next.
This isn't even a transfer issue where there is indeed a missing hole in the accepting school's roster. You took away a DO matriculation spot one year, and then you're aiming to take away an MD matriculation spot the next.
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I agree. Notice I didn't say that I think OP should leave.
Just wanted to point out that the situation isn't as rosy as "just work hard and you can do whatever you want"
OP clearly goofed by taking a DO spot they really didn't want. Especially since there are allopathic schools that he could have gotten in with those stats.
I haven't done it and don't know personally of anyone who has but people on this board have said they did it or knew people who did it before. Also, there are some MD schools (GWU and Georgetown are two that come to mind) that will accept DO transfers after 2nd year (good luck on getting them to accept you only for the reason you want an MD though). When I filled out AMCAS you could even list courses as osteopathic, which I took to mean were classes you took while enrolled at a DO school.
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IMO, the two most practical choices.
1. Withdraw from DO school and reapply MD, and if asked about it in interviews, make up something about i.e. OMM not jiving with you. You could very well get into an MD school after 1st year, but you would be wasting 1 year of tuition to hold onto a spot you don't want.
2. Hope you do well the 1st 2 years and on the USMLE Step 1 and try for a transfer into the spots that might be available.
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DOs apply as independent applicants and are counted as such in the charting outcomes report. So yes they can get MD residencies but their chances at anything remotely competitive is very low. Family medicine? no problem. Gen surg? good luck...
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what exactly do you mean by this?
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I always enjoy the mistaken notion that if someone wants to do something competitive or surgical that they stand a better chance going MD. What they're essentially doing is attempting to keep the doors open on programs they're likely not going to be competitive for at the expense of closing doors to programs they more likely would be competitive for. If someone has a 3.4 and a 28 how likely is it they're going to end up with a 240+? It's much more within the realm of possibility of ending up with a 215. Having gone to an MD school isn't going to be a huge differentiating factor between two applicants with a 215 because neither one of them is really going to have a chance. Now before all the anecdotes get pitched about how someone can turn it around from a poor undergrad performance, how likely is it, statistically speaking, to go from a 3.4 and a 28 to a 240+?
People on paper (via grades/MCAT) found on the borderline of DO and MD admissions stand a better chance, in my opinion, of matching into a competitive specialty on the DO end; and it has nothing to do with the commonly purported idea that 'there are more programs available to apply to giving a greater statistical likelihood'. It's akin to someone like Shawn Bradley or Kris Kaman wanting to play basketball in the Olympics. Sure, they could give it their shot trying to get on the US team (slim chance) or they could get their German citizenship and play on the German team. If they're goal is to win a gold medal, then yes they would stand a better chance being on the US team, but if their goal is to simply play basketball in the Olympics, which team do you think they honestly have that chance on? Similarly, if someone with a 3.4 and a 28 wants to do ENT, which pathway do you think realistically puts them in a position where they can become an ENT -- the one where the average USMLE is above 240 or one where the programs are much smaller that they'll be looking more strongly at personality and how well one fits the program? Now, just like if someone's goal was to win a gold medal, so also if someone's goal is to match to an allopathic ENT program then sure, they should go MD because their chances of getting in are better as an MD, much as in the same way your chances of suicide increase after being started on an SSRI. But if the goal is simply being an ENT try to reason your way into which pathway gives you a realistic possibility.
If someone with a 3.4 and 28 wants to go MD to increase chances of landing a surgical subspecialty or a ROAD specialty then I'll wish them luck -- kind of like the way I'd wish Shawn Bradley luck in landing himself on the Dream Team.
People on paper (via grades/MCAT) found on the borderline of DO and MD admissions stand a better chance, in my opinion, of matching into a competitive specialty on the DO end; and it has nothing to do with the commonly purported idea that 'there are more programs available to apply to giving a greater statistical likelihood'. It's akin to someone like Shawn Bradley or Kris Kaman wanting to play basketball in the Olympics. Sure, they could give it their shot trying to get on the US team (slim chance) or they could get their German citizenship and play on the German team. If they're goal is to win a gold medal, then yes they would stand a better chance being on the US team, but if their goal is to simply play basketball in the Olympics, which team do you think they honestly have that chance on? Similarly, if someone with a 3.4 and a 28 wants to do ENT, which pathway do you think realistically puts them in a position where they can become an ENT -- the one where the average USMLE is above 240 or one where the programs are much smaller that they'll be looking more strongly at personality and how well one fits the program? Now, just like if someone's goal was to win a gold medal, so also if someone's goal is to match to an allopathic ENT program then sure, they should go MD because their chances of getting in are better as an MD, much as in the same way your chances of suicide increase after being started on an SSRI. But if the goal is simply being an ENT try to reason your way into which pathway gives you a realistic possibility.
If someone with a 3.4 and 28 wants to go MD to increase chances of landing a surgical subspecialty or a ROAD specialty then I'll wish them luck -- kind of like the way I'd wish Shawn Bradley luck in landing himself on the Dream Team.
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I'll play Devil's advocate here. OP actually had a 3.79/31 which are better than my stats were (3.2/33) and better than some of my classmates. I'm not sure where he was deficient on his app but those numbers are competitive. Not sure where they went wrong and why they couldn't get MD. I'm sure there are plenty of people with low 30s MCAT who end up killing Step 1.
I don't know much about DO residencies but the match rates for US allopaths into competitive specialties is very high except for things like plastics.
I mean I'm an MD in a semi-competitive specialty. I work with DO's in my specialty. And in that context, I think the OP's idea is dumb and a waste of money.
If he wants to transfer schools, he should do it after 2nd year med school like anyone doing an MD to MD transfer.
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The thing I find most amusing about the whole MD v DO thing is that when people complain about DOs being discriminated against in landing allopathic residencies DO residencies are far more discriminatory in they won't even consider allopathic students. That's much worse.
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Not really. How many MD's you know are complaining about not getting to apply to DO residencies?
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I was more so responding to some of the following responses, which I should have gone back through to find and quote.
I believe this to be true. Mostly because all those with the 215 who wanted ENT don't end up applying/interviewing/ranking those programs.
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So what are u saying, the applicant with a 3.4/28 should go to DO school over MD school if they got into both. Yeahhh ok.
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No. I'm saying the mistaken notion that they'd have a better shot at something competitive by going MD is false.
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I think where you are mistaken is that past performance in UG isn't that accurate in predicting future performance in med school. The environments are so different and many take time off and mature.
I don't know enough about osteopathic residencies but I will say this is the first time I've heard that it's better to go the osteopathic route. I've talked to a DO student about how hard it is to match something like osteopathic derm but he could have been blowing smoke.
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Actually, quite a few MD applicants looking to increase their chances for a competitive specialty like nsurg, ortho, or derm would benefit from a combined match that allowed MD applicants to match at DO residencies. However, there is much less desire for DO primary care spots. The MD world has plenty of those, too.
It would be quite a turning of the tables if such a world existed. Moments of sheer hilarity when the allo applicant looking to match osteo neurosurg asked about his less than stellar COMLEX score ...
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let's say you hypothetically are attending a DO school currently and you're killing it... you find yourself with a 4.0. Now you want to switch out of a program where you attained said 4.0. have you not thought of how ridiculously risky it will be to abandon a program where you have seen success for one where there is ZERO guarantee that it will work for you?
It's the equivalent of leaving your spouse for someone you're fantasizing about at the office. Sure, it very well may work, but what a massive risk.
If you're able to do it, I hope the best for you. I'd think long and hard though about what you're chasing. If you're dying to do neurosurg at an academic institution? Go MD. Uro-Surg? Go MD. If you're that specific, then frankly, you should have waited anyway. But here you are, looking to bail on one education for another.
It's a serious game of educational-Russian roulette, but best of luck.
It's the equivalent of leaving your spouse for someone you're fantasizing about at the office. Sure, it very well may work, but what a massive risk.
If you're able to do it, I hope the best for you. I'd think long and hard though about what you're chasing. If you're dying to do neurosurg at an academic institution? Go MD. Uro-Surg? Go MD. If you're that specific, then frankly, you should have waited anyway. But here you are, looking to bail on one education for another.
It's a serious game of educational-Russian roulette, but best of luck.
One of the interesting things I have noted about many of the competitive DO spots is that board scores really don't mean anything. I was told this by one of our deans and thought he was full of it. Guy said the most important thing to getting a competitive spot is to do away rotations. As I have found, many of the more competitive programs want more than one away month, but don't even look at board scores (from the mouth of the PD). I have seen ortho and ER applicants do three months at the same place.
As such, the DO world is more forgiving of poor scores than the MD world is, Also, there are simply not as many DO's and about half end up in the MD match. I have a hunch that if an otherwise average student wanted in a super competitive field (other than Radonc and maybe Uro) they would have a better shot in the DO match. I think there is a lot more self-selecting going on than most people realize and there are some really good opportunites for DOs in the osteo match. The MD side is no cakewalk, my friends in Allo programs going through the match this year are all scared to death about it.
All that said, if research or a name brand is your thing, you will find none of it in the DO world.
I think its silly to even think about giving up a year of attending salary to start over at an MD school.
As such, the DO world is more forgiving of poor scores than the MD world is, Also, there are simply not as many DO's and about half end up in the MD match. I have a hunch that if an otherwise average student wanted in a super competitive field (other than Radonc and maybe Uro) they would have a better shot in the DO match. I think there is a lot more self-selecting going on than most people realize and there are some really good opportunites for DOs in the osteo match. The MD side is no cakewalk, my friends in Allo programs going through the match this year are all scared to death about it.
All that said, if research or a name brand is your thing, you will find none of it in the DO world.
I think its silly to even think about giving up a year of attending salary to start over at an MD school.
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For what it's worth, there was a ton of research going on at Ohio University COM, at least in all the campus visits I saw. I do think that DOs will have a lot more trouble in the next few years matching into allo residencies - during orientation we were told that by the time we graduate there will be as many allo students as there are allo spots so Carrib and DO are going to be pushed out first. Residency directors for allo spots told me (I asked) that they would take an MD student over a DO student period, given the choice.
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True, but how accurate? Why do osteopathic students score lower, on average, on the USMLE than their allopathic counterparts? Is all the variance explained by curriculum? Why would step scores be higher, on average, from "top ten" medical schools than some "unranked" programs? Do people with sub-30s MCAT scores get scores above 235? Yes. Often? Perhaps. But for each person with a sub-optimal MCAT getting a 240, how many don't? Yes, undergrad performance doesn't completely predict medical school performance, but my money would be on a pretty strong pattern of linear correlation.
I had a 3.6 and a 26. I've got a solid 3.0 GPA and ~70th percentile on COMLEX. I feel comfortable that had I opted to do my rotations at some of the sites where they have competitive programs and would have an opportunity to be a strong enough applicant to interview and rank those programs. If I were on the allopathic side there's no way I'd have any of those doors open to me and it would be a huge uphill battle for me to even get interviews where on paper I am as average as they come.
But again this changes if someone only wants to train at an allopathic residency. Like I said, someone like Kosta Koufos would have a better shot at winning an Olympic gold medal in basketball with the US team but the reality stands that he'd never make the US team. If he utilizes his Greek citizenship he'll get an opportunity to be a starter on an Olympic basketball team.
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I get what you are saying but I just disagree with it. Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like you are saying that borderline MD applicants should do DO instead because they are likely to be average or below average in medical school and DO gives them a better chance of doing something competitive.
Maybe I'm biased because my allopathic school routinely accepts those relatively weak on paper yet we have no problems matching people into competitive specialties and have a track record of outperforming our MCAT.
Your olympic bball analogy doesn't work well because the number of spots is so different. Yes there is less overall competition for osteopathic residencies but there are less spots as well. It's not as easy to make the Greek Olympic team if there are only 3 spots on the team versus 15
