Really confused and torn about med school

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jman128

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and I am worried that its getting down to the wire and I really don't know what to do. I posted something similar to this on the PA forum.

Background: I am a 20 years old male, a junior in college, majoring in biomedical sciences. I am in the honors program and have a pretty good gpa.

I was pre-med on the track to med school and I recently just gave a ton of thought if thats what I really wanted to do. It just seems like such a long and stressful road, and I wasn't sure if thats what I really wanted. My advisor told me if I wasnt sure that I should take the deposit out from my MCAT class so I did. I have been reading a lot about the road to becoming a doctor and it just doesnt seem positive regarding the crazy long hours, money situation, and lifestyle.

So after this I looked at Physician Assistant. It was listed as number 2 best job in America and I have heard really positive things about it. (not racking up ridiculous debt, not in school for long, etc)

My mom is practically flipping out because:
1. She thinks that by not going to med school I am wasting my abilities and she is disappointed because I am so bright and I ace everything (while I get awesome grades I work my *** off for them, its not really easy for me)
2. Since I told her that I am still unsure of PA or MD, she thinks that I have no direction in life and that I have to choose right now of what I want to do or I will have no job.
3. She says that I have to apply to PA/MD school (or any grad school) as soon as possible and I HAVE to get in right after college or I will be in debt having to pay bills with either no job or a crappy job.
4. She says that I can't be undecided now because this is the time to choose your career.
5. She says that I won't know how med school or pa school or whatever I do is unless I try it. (Im pretty sure I just can't TRY med school)

I think the major thing about med school that is deterring me is the lifestyle of students. Are you really studying/working all day with no social life? I almost broke down during finals week because I was inside all week studying. I dont know if I could do that every day.

My family seems to be disappointed in me. Most people consider me a bright kid. I am acing my classes but this also could be because of less pressure when i decided against med school. I know you guys will say its MY decision but it will affect my family in terms of money.

I'm almost going to become a senior in college and I am so torn and undecided its killing me. I think Im just so weary of the future because I just want to be happy. Do I really want to be working my *** off in my prime. I dont know.
 
and I am worried that its getting down to the wire and I really don't know what to do. I posted something similar to this on the PA forum.

Background: I am a 20 years old male, a junior in college, majoring in biomedical sciences. I am in the honors program and have a pretty good gpa.

I was pre-med on the track to med school and I recently just gave a ton of thought if thats what I really wanted to do. It just seems like such a long and stressful road, and I wasn't sure if thats what I really wanted. My advisor told me if I wasnt sure that I should take the deposit out from my MCAT class so I did. I have been reading a lot about the road to becoming a doctor and it just doesnt seem positive regarding the crazy long hours, money situation, and lifestyle.

So after this I looked at Physician Assistant. It was listed as number 2 best job in America and I have heard really positive things about it. (not racking up ridiculous debt, not in school for long, etc)

My mom is practically flipping out because:
1. She thinks that by not going to med school I am wasting my abilities and she is disappointed because I am so bright and I ace everything (while I get awesome grades I work my *** off for them, its not really easy for me)
2. Since I told her that I am still unsure of PA or MD, she thinks that I have no direction in life and that I have to choose right now of what I want to do or I will have no job.
3. She says that I have to apply to PA/MD school (or any grad school) as soon as possible and I HAVE to get in right after college or I will be in debt having to pay bills with either no job or a crappy job.
4. She says that I can't be undecided now because this is the time to choose your career.
5. She says that I won't know how med school or pa school or whatever I do is unless I try it. (Im pretty sure I just can't TRY med school)

I think the major thing about med school that is deterring me is the lifestyle of students. Are you really studying/working all day with no social life? I almost broke down during finals week because I was inside all week studying. I dont know if I could do that every day.

My family seems to be disappointed in me. Most people consider me a bright kid. I am acing my classes but this also could be because of less pressure when i decided against med school. I know you guys will say its MY decision but it will affect my family in terms of money.

I'm almost going to become a senior in college and I am so torn and undecided its killing me. I think Im just so weary of the future because I just want to be happy. Do I really want to be working my *** off in my prime. I dont know.

RULE #1: YOU are applying, it is YOUR life, and YOUR decisions. Do not let your mom be the reason you don't do what you want.
 
medicine is a field where you indeed must make sacrifices. if you find studying and working long hours to be something that you are not willing to put in, then I think the PA route is right for you. becoming a physician is not easy; it is smart to analyze your potential options and make an informed decision. you will be much better off as a happy PA, than a bitter physician who is angry at the world because he/she went into a field that wasn't right for him/her.
 
Hey jman,

Sorry to hear about the stress your family is causing you. From reading your post, I think you probably already know that most of your mom's points are invalid (it is *not* costly if you don't get into college straightaway or be applying as a junior). But, I don't think you should get into a long-winded discussion with her about why her concerns are unreasonable, since that would just create more tension (I am assuming you live with her). Instead, you can try telling her something generic, like how you went to see a medical admissions person (or you talked to some medical students) and they told you your CV needed some improvement, and thus you are taking some time to make sure your bases are covered before you apply, because you want to be confident, and because you want to avoid paying extra fees for applications/interviews in the event you don't get in the first round. This is what I say to my parents when they get on my case, and it works well for me/them. At the least it could give you a respite period where your mom is not causing unnecessary stress for you and you can think somewhat clearly.

I'm not sure what you mean when you say your decision will affect your family in terms of money - is it because you are supporting them? I don't know any specifics about the earning power of a PA degree, but I would think it is more than decent. You definitely should take the path you think is right for you, but I do sympathize...it sucks not having the support of your family.

One more thing: The lifestyle of a medical student is probably stressful; however, that seems to be the case with a lot of grad programs. A PA program would probably be just as stressful. You really have to just get through the schooling, and then you'll be able to pick and choose the career that caters to the lifestyle you want.

Good luck and try to feel better.👍

and I am worried that its getting down to the wire and I really don't know what to do. I posted something similar to this on the PA forum.

Background: I am a 20 years old male, a junior in college, majoring in biomedical sciences. I am in the honors program and have a pretty good gpa.

I was pre-med on the track to med school and I recently just gave a ton of thought if thats what I really wanted to do. It just seems like such a long and stressful road, and I wasn't sure if thats what I really wanted. My advisor told me if I wasnt sure that I should take the deposit out from my MCAT class so I did. I have been reading a lot about the road to becoming a doctor and it just doesnt seem positive regarding the crazy long hours, money situation, and lifestyle.

So after this I looked at Physician Assistant. It was listed as number 2 best job in America and I have heard really positive things about it. (not racking up ridiculous debt, not in school for long, etc)

My mom is practically flipping out because:
1. She thinks that by not going to med school I am wasting my abilities and she is disappointed because I am so bright and I ace everything (while I get awesome grades I work my *** off for them, its not really easy for me)
2. Since I told her that I am still unsure of PA or MD, she thinks that I have no direction in life and that I have to choose right now of what I want to do or I will have no job.
3. She says that I have to apply to PA/MD school (or any grad school) as soon as possible and I HAVE to get in right after college or I will be in debt having to pay bills with either no job or a crappy job.
4. She says that I can't be undecided now because this is the time to choose your career.
5. She says that I won't know how med school or pa school or whatever I do is unless I try it. (Im pretty sure I just can't TRY med school)

I think the major thing about med school that is deterring me is the lifestyle of students. Are you really studying/working all day with no social life? I almost broke down during finals week because I was inside all week studying. I dont know if I could do that every day.

My family seems to be disappointed in me. Most people consider me a bright kid. I am acing my classes but this also could be because of less pressure when i decided against med school. I know you guys will say its MY decision but it will affect my family in terms of money.

I'm almost going to become a senior in college and I am so torn and undecided its killing me. I think Im just so weary of the future because I just want to be happy. Do I really want to be working my *** off in my prime. I dont know.
 
What's annoying about our parents is that most of them are NOT doctors and yet have so much advice about medicine...

My mom told me once to just take the MCATs for fun, to wing it and then study...I kept explaining to her that getting a 20 would seem really bad on my records...

Anyways, listen here is my advice to you. Graduate first, do more volunteering and shadow some PAs and MDs. During your last semester, find a job, MOVE OUT (if you haven't done so), more importantly = support yourself. If you pay your own bills than your mom can't say shi*. When you are living your own life you can decide then.

If MD isn't for you so what? If at the end of the day, being a PA make you happy then go for it! I actually looked into NP and PA programs after I graduated but I just knew deep down inside I would never be satisfied....

Good luck to you! Like everyone has been saying, it's your life and your decisions, parents DON'T always know best, actually their advice can really suck.
 
and I am worried that its getting down to the wire and I really don't know what to do. I posted something similar to this on the PA forum.

Background: I am a 20 years old male, a junior in college, majoring in biomedical sciences. I am in the honors program and have a pretty good gpa.

I was pre-med on the track to med school and I recently just gave a ton of thought if thats what I really wanted to do. It just seems like such a long and stressful road, and I wasn't sure if thats what I really wanted. My advisor told me if I wasnt sure that I should take the deposit out from my MCAT class so I did. I have been reading a lot about the road to becoming a doctor and it just doesnt seem positive regarding the crazy long hours, money situation, and lifestyle.

So after this I looked at Physician Assistant. It was listed as number 2 best job in America and I have heard really positive things about it. (not racking up ridiculous debt, not in school for long, etc)

My mom is practically flipping out because:
1. She thinks that by not going to med school I am wasting my abilities and she is disappointed because I am so bright and I ace everything (while I get awesome grades I work my *** off for them, its not really easy for me)
2. Since I told her that I am still unsure of PA or MD, she thinks that I have no direction in life and that I have to choose right now of what I want to do or I will have no job.
3. She says that I have to apply to PA/MD school (or any grad school) as soon as possible and I HAVE to get in right after college or I will be in debt having to pay bills with either no job or a crappy job.
4. She says that I can't be undecided now because this is the time to choose your career.
5. She says that I won't know how med school or pa school or whatever I do is unless I try it. (Im pretty sure I just can't TRY med school)


I think the major thing about med school that is deterring me is the lifestyle of students. Are you really studying/working all day with no social life? I almost broke down during finals week because I was inside all week studying. I dont know if I could do that every day.

My family seems to be disappointed in me. Most people consider me a bright kid. I am acing my classes but this also could be because of less pressure when i decided against med school. I know you guys will say its MY decision but it will affect my family in terms of money.

I'm almost going to become a senior in college and I am so torn and undecided its killing me. I think Im just so weary of the future because I just want to be happy. Do I really want to be working my *** off in my prime. I dont know.
Forget about what your mom says or thinks - w/ respect - because as it was said above, this is YOUR life. Do some more in-depth research into what a career in medicine entails vs. a career as a PA and shadow some doctors and get their input. Money-wise, it will take some time but you eventually will pay it off and you will be able to live a comfy lifestyle (unless Obama has his way 🙄) And to your last sentence... what else do you expect to be doing in your prime - be lazy, unemployed, just expecting the money to drop down from above? 😱
 
Can I ask where your initial interest in medicine came from? I know that can be a tough question to answer, but it seems like you are doing the pre-med stuff to satisfy the expectations of others.

I would also recommend you shadow both physicians and PA's, and ask what thier educational and work experiences were like.

Most of all, like others have said, be true to yourself and your life. Sometimes you have to make tough decisions, and you certainly won't please everyone. Good luck, and take your time.
 
Thanks a lot guys, I really appreciate it.

Right now, I am also considering getting a Masters in Public Health since I really like talking about health ethics and issues.......or maybe forensics. lol, you guys can see why I have an issue. I feel like I have many opportunities.

Oh and about the money. Its not about supporting them, but more of becoming a financial burden. My parents are not rolling in dough, so me going to med school would really **** them over.

My dad was like, "If you could go to med school and be a doctor with zero debt would that your help your decsion?"

Was this an appropriate response? "It doesnt matter. Thats not reality. I am going to be working my *** off, not making money and being a slave to whoever gave me loans. Is it worth all that? Idk"
 
and I am worried that its getting down to the wire and I really don't know what to do. I posted something similar to this on the PA forum.

Background: I am a 20 years old male, a junior in college, majoring in biomedical sciences. I am in the honors program and have a pretty good gpa.

I was pre-med on the track to med school and I recently just gave a ton of thought if thats what I really wanted to do. It just seems like such a long and stressful road, and I wasn't sure if thats what I really wanted. My advisor told me if I wasnt sure that I should take the deposit out from my MCAT class so I did. I have been reading a lot about the road to becoming a doctor and it just doesnt seem positive regarding the crazy long hours, money situation, and lifestyle.

So after this I looked at Physician Assistant. It was listed as number 2 best job in America and I have heard really positive things about it. (not racking up ridiculous debt, not in school for long, etc)

My mom is practically flipping out because:
1. She thinks that by not going to med school I am wasting my abilities and she is disappointed because I am so bright and I ace everything (while I get awesome grades I work my *** off for them, its not really easy for me)
2. Since I told her that I am still unsure of PA or MD, she thinks that I have no direction in life and that I have to choose right now of what I want to do or I will have no job.
3. She says that I have to apply to PA/MD school (or any grad school) as soon as possible and I HAVE to get in right after college or I will be in debt having to pay bills with either no job or a crappy job.
4. She says that I can't be undecided now because this is the time to choose your career.
5. She says that I won't know how med school or pa school or whatever I do is unless I try it. (Im pretty sure I just can't TRY med school)

I think the major thing about med school that is deterring me is the lifestyle of students. Are you really studying/working all day with no social life? I almost broke down during finals week because I was inside all week studying. I dont know if I could do that every day.

My family seems to be disappointed in me. Most people consider me a bright kid. I am acing my classes but this also could be because of less pressure when i decided against med school. I know you guys will say its MY decision but it will affect my family in terms of money.

I'm almost going to become a senior in college and I am so torn and undecided its killing me. I think Im just so weary of the future because I just want to be happy. Do I really want to be working my *** off in my prime. I dont know.

Are you Asian?
 
Thanks a lot guys, I really appreciate it.

Right now, I am also considering getting a Masters in Public Health since I really like talking about health ethics and issues.......or maybe forensics. lol, you guys can see why I have an issue. I feel like I have many opportunities.

Oh and about the money. Its not about supporting them, but more of becoming a financial burden. My parents are not rolling in dough, so me going to med school would really **** them over.

My dad was like, "If you could go to med school and be a doctor with zero debt would that your help your decsion?"

Was this an appropriate response? "It doesnt matter. Thats not reality. I am going to be working my *** off, not making money and being a slave to whoever gave me loans. Is it worth all that? Idk"
 
Best way to figure out if medicine is right for you: get your hands dirty as best as a pre-med student can.

Also to echo some other sentiments: it is YOUR life and you should do what you want. You might make your parents happy for the time being, but you're the one stuck with a career you dread. Which would be worse?
 
Thanks a lot guys, I really appreciate it.

Right now, I am also considering getting a Masters in Public Health since I really like talking about health ethics and issues.......or maybe forensics. lol, you guys can see why I have an issue. I feel like I have many opportunities.

Oh and about the money. Its not about supporting them, but more of becoming a financial burden. My parents are not rolling in dough, so me going to med school would really **** them over.

My dad was like, "If you could go to med school and be a doctor with zero debt would that your help your decsion?"

Was this an appropriate response? "It doesnt matter. Thats not reality. I am going to be working my *** off, not making money and being a slave to whoever gave me loans. Is it worth all that? Idk"


A good number of students pursuing medicine are going in with debt already. The students themselves are taking out loans, etc. because nothing will stop them from achieving their goal. If you don't have a similar mentality, then I don't know whether it is worth it to stand up against the rigors of medical school.

I'd definitely get some shadowing done and asking people in the respective professions you seek about their lives. Is it something you see yourself doing? Good luck and please take some time to think it over!
 
and I am worried that its getting down to the wire and I really don't know what to do. I posted something similar to this on the PA forum.

Background: I am a 20 years old male, a junior in college, majoring in biomedical sciences. I am in the honors program and have a pretty good gpa.

I was pre-med on the track to med school and I recently just gave a ton of thought if thats what I really wanted to do. It just seems like such a long and stressful road, and I wasn't sure if thats what I really wanted. My advisor told me if I wasnt sure that I should take the deposit out from my MCAT class so I did. I have been reading a lot about the road to becoming a doctor and it just doesnt seem positive regarding the crazy long hours, money situation, and lifestyle.

So after this I looked at Physician Assistant. It was listed as number 2 best job in America and I have heard really positive things about it. (not racking up ridiculous debt, not in school for long, etc)

My mom is practically flipping out because:
1. She thinks that by not going to med school I am wasting my abilities and she is disappointed because I am so bright and I ace everything (while I get awesome grades I work my *** off for them, its not really easy for me)
2. Since I told her that I am still unsure of PA or MD, she thinks that I have no direction in life and that I have to choose right now of what I want to do or I will have no job.
3. She says that I have to apply to PA/MD school (or any grad school) as soon as possible and I HAVE to get in right after college or I will be in debt having to pay bills with either no job or a crappy job.
4. She says that I can't be undecided now because this is the time to choose your career.
5. She says that I won't know how med school or pa school or whatever I do is unless I try it. (Im pretty sure I just can't TRY med school)

I think the major thing about med school that is deterring me is the lifestyle of students. Are you really studying/working all day with no social life? I almost broke down during finals week because I was inside all week studying. I dont know if I could do that every day.

My family seems to be disappointed in me. Most people consider me a bright kid. I am acing my classes but this also could be because of less pressure when i decided against med school. I know you guys will say its MY decision but it will affect my family in terms of money.

I'm almost going to become a senior in college and I am so torn and undecided its killing me. I think Im just so weary of the future because I just want to be happy. Do I really want to be working my *** off in my prime. I dont know.

your mom is like my mom haha..
intern my friend, see how pa's live, ask them how happy they are and what not, look at doctors and see there reviews about there career.
in the end its your life, not your mom's, she's really just trying to help you out by having you feel more inclined to go to a grad school and get a good job and have a good life.
really you should look into every health care field if you have a good gpa, see which one is more your thing and you'll be good.

in my opinion, if you have a good gpa you shouldn't have much problem getting into medical school. and med schools is hard but its not impossible and there is a lot of hand holding.

but in the end.. intern and volunteer and see these fields and then you'll have your answer of which field is more your thing.

if your avoiding medicine because of the debt and the work, well.. blower but you'll make alot more being a doctor and the same amount of work as the pa will do in study and work is going to be just as hard as your clinics and residency.
either way your residency you'll get used to even if its 80 hours a week and hey.. you end up with a amazing job.
 
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Thanks a lot guys, I really appreciate it.

Right now, I am also considering getting a Masters in Public Health since I really like talking about health ethics and issues.......or maybe forensics. lol, you guys can see why I have an issue. I feel like I have many opportunities.

Oh and about the money. Its not about supporting them, but more of becoming a financial burden. My parents are not rolling in dough, so me going to med school would really **** them over.

My dad was like, "If you could go to med school and be a doctor with zero debt would that your help your decsion?"

Was this an appropriate response? "It doesnt matter. Thats not reality. I am going to be working my *** off, not making money and being a slave to whoever gave me loans. Is it worth all that? Idk"

if you don't want any debt get into a MD/PHD program.
and like i said, your debt will be miniscule compared to your earnings through out your life. i.e making at least 150k a year
and if you get a high paying specialty.. well you'll kill your loans in 10 years at most.
 
Your mom sounds like a bully.. do what you wanna do and don't just try to appease her.. Don't let her rush your decision. Took me something like a year of constant back and forth before deciding medicine was what I wanted. More or less a year of me trying to convince myself that it wasn't worth the work. For me, I think it will be. Don't let your mom make that decision for you, though.
 
Your mom sounds like a bully.. do what you wanna do and don't just try to appease her.. Don't let her rush your decision. Took me something like a year of constant back and forth before deciding medicine was what I wanted. More or less a year of me trying to convince myself that it wasn't worth the work. For me, I think it will be. Don't let your mom make that decision for you, though.

mothers are very rarely bullies..
they mostly just try to ensure there children's best existence. she see's medicine as a good life and as such is pushing him towards it.. this is just her way of getting the point across..
 
There comes a time in every man's life where he must realize there are very few people in the world whose opinion ought to matter. It sounds like your mother might not be one of those people based on what she's said.
 
My advise is that if you are not sure about wanting to be a physician, then wait and dont apply. You dont want to be taking a seat away from someone who has always dreamed about being a physician.
 
I don't think medical students are studying, all day every day. Well, I'm not a med student so I don't reallly know what they do, but they aren't inside for all these years straight, I can tell you that. What I think though, is that all this, is overrated. You guys keep on asking ''Hey guys, I'm crying my eyes out because I passed all my classes except bio, do you think I can be a doctor?'' Ofcourse you can, now, stop showing off! To be a doctor you don't have to ace all your tests, and watch House. I mean, I know it's much harder to get into medical school in the US, than a medical school in Iceland. To get into medical school in Iceland you just have to pass an organized test, which anyone who has a gymnasium degree can take. But, come on guys, think about this.
 
My advise is that if you are not sure about wanting to be a physician, then wait and dont apply. You dont want to be taking a seat away from someone who has always dreamed about being a physician.
More importantly, you're setting yourself up to be intensely miserable at the cost of thousands of dollars and a year of your time if you decide medicine isn't for you. I don't suggest doing that.

I don't think medical students are studying, all day every day.
Some people do. It's pretty typical for people to go to class (~6 hours per day) then spend another 4 hours studying on their own time. If you add in meals, transit time, and stuff like that, you've got about 12 hours of your day accounted for. If you want to put in more time than that, you'll literally be doing school stuff all day, every day. It adds up in a hurry. That's why I encourage you, OP, to be really sure you want to go into medicine. It really can take over your life.
 
I'm personally a glutton for punishment =)
I enjoy the stress and make it manage [even though I'm not in med school I'm sure as hell busy =) ] Stress is overwhelming at times but you have to strike up a nice balance of work and relaxation.
I've finally gotten my personal life fixed =) I've started to eat well and exercise in a nice regular regimen.
Remember it's not necessarily good to be strong but to also feel strong =)
But on a side note:
don't do the MD/PhD like someone suggested for free tuition. That program isn't set up to give hand outs like that.. Their applicant pool is filled with crazy gunners [years and i mean YEARS of research and publications].

Medicine or PA is ur choice. There's tons of great alternatives to the traditional medicine route : IE podiatry, optometry, dentist etc. Find what works for YOU . Haha I'm sure people have been stressing that throughout this thread. But honestly why do you want to do medicine [the traditional route] ?
My suggestion to you is to spend some time during this break and write a personal statement for medicine. Really work on it. Then read it objectively or have someone else read it objectively and see if it strikes as a chord with you or not. Granted that YOU did write that personal statement but sometimes you might not believe in what you write or you may not be convinced of your own words etc...
Shadow other people in other health professions and get a better idea of the other fields.
It's bound to be an interview questions for med school IE why MD vs DO, nursing etc... so be prepared to answer !
 
What's annoying about our parents is that most of them are NOT doctors and yet have so much advice about medicine...

My mom told me once to just take the MCATs for fun, to wing it and then study...I kept explaining to her that getting a 20 would seem really bad on my records...

Anyways, listen here is my advice to you. Graduate first, do more volunteering and shadow some PAs and MDs. During your last semester, find a job, MOVE OUT (if you haven't done so), more importantly = support yourself. If you pay your own bills than your mom can't say shi*. When you are living your own life you can decide then.

If MD isn't for you so what? If at the end of the day, being a PA make you happy then go for it! I actually looked into NP and PA programs after I graduated but I just knew deep down inside I would never be satisfied....

Good luck to you! Like everyone has been saying, it's your life and your decisions, parents DON'T always know best, actually their advice can really suck.
Yeah, like my parents, who didn't like ANY choice I made before deciding on medicine, essentially sabotaging every prospect I had, even after I switched into medicine, they still continued to interfere, even though it was their dream to have me become a physician.

Parents are not always right and, like every person out there, can be driven by deeper motivations than we will accept.
 
What's annoying about our parents is that most of them are NOT doctors and yet have so much advice about medicine...

My mom told me once to just take the MCATs for fun, to wing it and then study...I kept explaining to her that getting a 20 would seem really bad on my records...

Anyways, listen here is my advice to you. Graduate first, do more volunteering and shadow some PAs and MDs. During your last semester, find a job, MOVE OUT (if you haven't done so), more importantly = support yourself. If you pay your own bills than your mom can't say shi*. When you are living your own life you can decide then.

If MD isn't for you so what? If at the end of the day, being a PA make you happy then go for it! I actually looked into NP and PA programs after I graduated but I just knew deep down inside I would never be satisfied....

Good luck to you! Like everyone has been saying, it's your life and your decisions, parents DON'T always know best, actually their advice can really suck.
Yeah, like my parents, who didn't like ANY choice I made before deciding on medicine, essentially sabotaging every prospect I had, even after I switched into medicine, they still continued to interfere, even though it was their dream to have me become a physician.

Parents are not always right and, like every person out there, can be driven by deeper motivations than we will accept.
 
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