Reapp to schools for 21-22 that rejected me this cycle?

[LGINGE]

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I have more clinical hours (1500+) and volunteer hours (100+), but nothing flashy. Is it worth reapplying to my instate and regional schools that pre-interview rejected me? What about schools that waitlisted me (3 this cycle)? It feels pathetic to reapply to those again, but if I stand a good chance of being reinterviewed I would definitely apply. I'm assuming there isn't any data on this. /: Any advice is helpful!! 🙂

 

[LGINGE]

1) Generally, advice from the medical schools themselves warn about rejected applicants from applying again too soon as they usually have not enhanced their record from the immediate previous cycle. In your case, you have enhanced your record enough that it is worth considering. Of course if your academic record, MCAT or something else was lacking, increase in clinical hours may not be enough to overcome.
2) This is nothing wrong with reapplying to schools that have rejected you, particularly instate or regional. Be aware they will see your previous application and you will be expected to address, either directly or implied, your shortcomings.
3) reapplying to schools on WL is what most reapplicants should do. Remember that being on WL/alternate means the adcom had approved you to be qualified to attend medical school but had lower priority for a seat. If you have improved and you reapply doesnt that show continued and commitment?
4) Reapplying to any school does mean updating/rewriting your application, particularly secondaries. Just handing in the same old stuff seems less than a motivated student.
5) Also realize that while the sheer number of applicants means many get rejected simply for that reason, but also weaker applicants are more likely to be rejected. Therefore, generally reapplicants as a group tend to be weaker applicants and generally have reduced chances. However, since you were WL by 3 schools and possible interviewed by more, you may are likely to be stronger in that aggregate.

In sum, you should reapply to the schools you have mentioned

Thank you so much for the thorough reapply advice. I have research experience w/ 1st author pub, high stats (3.7+ and 519), and an international clinic experience (Kenya) so I am hopeful increasing my domestic clinical exposure moves the dial if I have to undergo this torturous process again.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

Thank you so much for the thorough reapply advice. I have research experience w/ 1st author pub, high stats (3.7+ and 519), and an international clinic experience (Kenya) so I am hopeful increasing my domestic clinical exposure moves the dial if I have to undergo this torturous process again.

As Gonnif pointed out international medical volunteering can be a bit touchy, especially given that a lot of self-righteous premeds are going abroad to pay to play doc and put people's lives in danger. As long as you don't do any procedures other than handing out water bottles or pain killers, especially unsupervised, I guess some schools won't hold it against you.

I personally don't think there's any reason why premeds should do clinical volunteering abroad instead of here because most of them aren't qualified to do anything there (and shouldn't be doing anything there) that they can't do here.

 

[mmchick]

As Gonnif pointed out international medical volunteering can be a bit touchy, especially given that a lot of self-righteous premeds are going abroad to pay to play doc and put people's lives in danger. As long as you don't do any procedures other than handing out water bottles or pain killers, especially unsupervised, I guess some schools won't hold it against you.

I personally don't think there's any reason why premeds should do clinical volunteering abroad instead of here because most of them aren't qualified to do anything there (and shouldn't be doing anything there) that they can't do here.

@gonnif

I find this perspective interesting because although I agree pre-meds are not qualified to do any sort of seriously invasive procedure like a surgery, suturing, or imaging - I'd imagine that there would be some benefit that underserved countries/populations could get from premed work if procedures/efforts are kept to a limited/ethical standard. I completed a summer course in EMT-B work and within a couple months was administering glucagon, CPAP, dropping King airways, nitro, etc. without supervision which one could argue is "invasive" or to the very least could be detrimental to the patient's health in wrong contexts.. but someone's gotta do it, especially in the rural areas I was running where there weren't a lot of health professionals available and importantly in these underserved countries where I imagine that problem is only immensely magnified. I feel there is room for premeds that are properly trained in limited invasive procedures to help increase service in areas where there isn't a lot of supply. I don't think administering a vaccine (a simple shot to the deltoid) is that super complicated and could really help out a community trying to vaccinate individuals. In the US there are a plethora of people qualified to do so, but maybe not so much in countries that don't have a million and one providers or jobs to avoid giving someone with decent intellect a "on the spot" training to help out. Idk just some thoughts.

I find it peculiar we trust a 18 year old fresh EMT-B to decide on giving someone w/ chest pain in rural NC nitro without supervision, but it's taboo and frowned upon for that same 18 yr old to administer a vaccine that only requires muscle memory in an underserved community... I agree that there are bad apples that take advantage and do things they're definitely not qualified for in any reasonable mind, but to write off all premeds doing things maybe a bit more than what is regulated in the US to help out an underserved area has always been an odd standard to me.

 

[YCAGA]

Thank you so much for the thorough reapply advice. I have research experience w/ 1st author pub, high stats (3.7+ and 519), and an international clinic experience (Kenya) so I am hopeful increasing my domestic clinical exposure moves the dial if I have to undergo this torturous process again.

Do you have any domestic clinical experience in your 1,500 hours? If so, how much?

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

@gonnif

I find this perspective interesting because although I agree pre-meds are not qualified to do any sort of seriously invasive procedure like a surgery, suturing, or imaging - I'd imagine that there would be some benefit that underserved countries/populations could get from premed work if procedures/efforts are kept to a limited/ethical standard. I completed a summer course in EMT-B work and within a couple months was administering glucagon, CPAP, dropping King airways, nitro, etc. without supervision which one could argue is "invasive" or to the very least could be detrimental to the patient's health in wrong contexts.. but someone's gotta do it, especially in the rural areas I was running where there weren't a lot of health professionals available and importantly in these underserved countries where I imagine that problem is only immensely magnified. I feel there is room for premeds that are properly trained in limited invasive procedures to help increase service in areas where there isn't a lot of supply. I don't think administering a vaccine (a simple shot to the deltoid) is that super complicated and could really help out a community trying to vaccinate individuals. In the US there are a plethora of people qualified to do so, but maybe not so much in countries that don't have a million and one providers or jobs to avoid giving someone with decent intellect a "on the spot" training to help out. Idk just some thoughts.

I find it peculiar we trust a 18 year old fresh EMT-B to decide on giving someone w/ chest pain in rural NC nitro without supervision, but it's taboo and frowned upon for that same 18 yr old to administer a vaccine that only requires muscle memory in an underserved community... I agree that there are bad apples that take advantage and do things they're definitely not qualified for in any reasonable mind, but to write off all premeds doing things maybe a bit more than what is regulated in the US to help out an underserved area has always been an odd standard to me.

There is no reason for an unqualified premed to be doing any sort of procedure in a third world country. What, you think people from third world countries deserve anything other than quality healthcare? If anything they're the ones most likely to suffer if they are offered anything other than healthcare from qualified professionals. A lot of people have the view that "well anything helps". No. If "someone's gotta do it" as you put it, it should be someone qualified. You mentioned that "I feel there is room for premeds that are properly trained in limited invasive procedures to help increase service in areas where there isn't a lot of supply." What are you smoking?! There are rural areas in America that could benefit from more trained medical professionals, would America implement a plan like you described? No. So why the hell should they do that and send them off to third world countries? There's a reason medical professionals spend years in school. I'm not condemning all medical volunteering trips cause there are qualified professionals who go on them. I'm condemning trips that allow unqualified people (like premeds) to pay to play doc in countries where they could cause damage.

 

[YCAGA]

@gonnif

I find this perspective interesting because although I agree pre-meds are not qualified to do any sort of seriously invasive procedure like a surgery, suturing, or imaging - I'd imagine that there would be some benefit that underserved countries/populations could get from premed work if procedures/efforts are kept to a limited/ethical standard. I completed a summer course in EMT-B work and within a couple months was administering glucagon, CPAP, dropping King airways, nitro, etc. without supervision which one could argue is "invasive" or to the very least could be detrimental to the patient's health in wrong contexts.. but someone's gotta do it, especially in the rural areas I was running where there weren't a lot of health professionals available and importantly in these underserved countries where I imagine that problem is only immensely magnified. I feel there is room for premeds that are properly trained in limited invasive procedures to help increase service in areas where there isn't a lot of supply. I don't think administering a vaccine (a simple shot to the deltoid) is that super complicated and could really help out a community trying to vaccinate individuals. In the US there are a plethora of people qualified to do so, but maybe not so much in countries that don't have a million and one providers or jobs to avoid giving someone with decent intellect a "on the spot" training to help out. Idk just some thoughts.

I find it peculiar we trust a 18 year old fresh EMT-B to decide on giving someone w/ chest pain in rural NC nitro without supervision, but it's taboo and frowned upon for that same 18 yr old to administer a vaccine that only requires muscle memory in an underserved community... I agree that there are bad apples that take advantage and do things they're definitely not qualified for in any reasonable mind, but to write off all premeds doing things maybe a bit more than what is regulated in the US to help out an underserved area has always been an odd standard to me.

You were trained as an EMT-B, passed a national licensing exam, and were practicing under a physician’s license while following federal and state laws. You also were hopefully following a strict protocol and any deviation from that protocol was approved by your medical director. That really is not comparable to international aid work with premeds (in most cases). I think the big measure of how sketchy aid work looks is a combination of duration and scope of practice. 2 years of Peace Corps-type work teaching sex ed to high schoolers is much better than two weeks of scrubbing in as first assist as an 18 year old. Impactful duration and a reasonable scope of practice is very different from what is essential a vacation combined with what would be malpractice in the US.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

You were trained as an EMT-B, passed a national licensing exam, and were practicing under a physician’s license while following federal and state laws. You also were hopefully following a strict protocol and any deviation from that protocol was approved by your medical director. That really is not comparable to international aid work with premeds (in most cases). I think the big measure of how sketchy aid work looks is a combination of duration and scope of practice. 2 years of Peace Corps-type work teaching sex ed to high schoolers is much better than two weeks of scrubbing in as first assist as an 18 year old. Impactful duration and a reasonable scope of practice is very different from what is essential a vacation combined with what would be malpractice in the US.

This. All of it.

 

[mmchick]

There is no reason for an unqualified premed to be doing any sort of procedure in a third world country. What, you think people from third world countries deserve anything other than quality healthcare? If anything they're the ones most likely to suffer if they are offered anything other than healthcare from qualified professionals. A lot of people have the view that "well anything helps". No. If "someone's gotta do it" as you put it, it should be someone qualified. You mentioned that "I feel there is room for premeds that are properly trained in limited invasive procedures to help increase service in areas where there isn't a lot of supply." What are you smoking?! There are rural areas in America that could benefit from more trained medical professionals, would America implement a plan like you described? No. So why the hell should they do that and send them off to third world countries? There's a reason medical professionals spend years in school. I'm not condemning all medical volunteering trips cause there are qualified professionals who go on them. I'm condemning trips that allow unqualified people (like premeds) to pay to play doc in countries where they could cause damage.

@YCAGA

I appreciate your, albeit very passionate, opinion. I still disagree to some extent. My point to draw in my experience as a fresh EMT with a lot of unsupervised access and discretion to administer lots of frankly medically invasive/active drugs is to say that 2 months of training IMO even with passing of tests is not really all that much to really have a grasp on the magnitude of consequence with certain drugs I was allowed to give. And that was in rural America, which they IMO lowered the standards when compared to other places like New England where I've noticed EMTs are not given even remotely as much autonomy and cannot do even half of the things procedural or medical that I was allowed to do. And sure, on paper, we have a EMD and training to go through, but realistically, a lot of college kids at my agency were passing training pretty quickly and giving meds they couldn't give one nth of knowledge re contraindications, MOA, or antidotes to. My presumption is that that leniency was granted as those people have less access to any sort of healthcare let alone those "highly qualified" personnel that I assume you mean have done years and years of schooling.

Again, I'm suggesting that simple procedures that I do not think require years and years of schooling like administering a simple deltoid injection or cleaning teeth with floss + water are that unreasonable to allow someone with decent intellect to do after quick training. That isn't to suggest that people in these underserved areas are to any extent less deserving of high quality care, it is to address the reality that without these sort of leniencies, they wouldn't get that care at all. Again, simple vaccines and dental cleanings, not Whipple procedures and coronary bypass surgeries. Thanks for the thoughts.

 

[mmchick]

Here let me give you the definitive answer of the right and wrong of this, the moral ethic issue: wholly irrelevant. I am not passing any judgement on whether this should or shouldnt be. I am telling what the reality is on the perceptions and risks of doing so in regards to admissions to medical school. This comes from AAMC 2016 survey of admissions offices

Member schools expressed significant concern with regards to premedical students engaging in unsupervised clinical activities in international settings. In particular, 45-50% of those schools completing the survey described applicant involvement in invasive procedures in international settings as either harmful to, or of no value to, their application. Examples of such invasive procedures include giving vaccinations, suturing an injury, pulling teeth, and delivering a baby. This concern of admissions officers persisted, albeit at lower levels (35-40% of respondents), when the students were supervised by a health professional while performing such invasive procedures in international settings.

I agree. As it comes to admissions, it is irrelevant and how they feel goes. I was more so interested in just a discussion of people's opinions re the morals of certain thresholds within the area of this practice.

 

[YCAGA]

@YCAGA

I appreciate your, albeit very passionate, opinion. I still disagree to some extent. My point to draw in my experience as a fresh EMT with a lot of unsupervised access and discretion to administer lots of frankly medically invasive/active drugs is to say that 2 months of training IMO even with passing of tests is not really all that much to really have a grasp on the magnitude of consequence with certain drugs I was allowed to give. And that was in rural America, which they IMO lowered the standards when compared to other places like New England where I've noticed EMTs are not given even remotely as much autonomy and cannot do even half of the things procedural or medical that I was allowed to do. And sure, on paper, we have a EMD and training to go through, but realistically, a lot of college kids at my agency were passing training pretty quickly and giving meds they couldn't give one nth of knowledge re contraindications, MOA, or antidotes to. My presumption is that that leniency was granted as those people have less access to any sort of healthcare let alone those "highly qualified" personnel that I assume you mean have done years and years of schooling.

Again, I'm suggesting that simple procedures that I do not think require years and years of schooling like administering a simple deltoid injection or cleaning teeth with floss + water are that unreasonable to allow someone with decent intellect to do after quick training. That isn't to suggest that people in these underserved areas are to any extent less deserving of high quality care, it is to address the reality that without these sort of leniencies, they wouldn't get that care at all. Again, simple vaccines and dental cleanings, not Whipple procedures and coronary bypass surgeries. Thanks for the thoughts.

Are you @‘ing me to say that I was particularly passionate or just because I was talking about this issue too? Kinda confused because I didn’t feel like I was passionate at all lol

 

[mmchick]

Are you @‘ing me to say that I was particularly passionate or just because I was talking about this issue too? Kinda confused because I didn’t feel like I was passionate at all lol

No haha just was @‘ing you cause you chimed in too and I can’t figure out how to quote multiple people with this new quoting system. Passionate was @ the other dude.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

@YCAGA

I appreciate your, albeit very passionate, opinion. I still disagree to some extent. My point to draw in my experience as a fresh EMT with a lot of unsupervised access and discretion to administer lots of frankly medically invasive/active drugs is to say that 2 months of training IMO even with passing of tests is not really all that much to really have a grasp on the magnitude of consequence with certain drugs I was allowed to give. And that was in rural America, which they IMO lowered the standards when compared to other places like New England where I've noticed EMTs are not given even remotely as much autonomy and cannot do even half of the things procedural or medical that I was allowed to do. And sure, on paper, we have a EMD and training to go through, but realistically, a lot of college kids at my agency were passing training pretty quickly and giving meds they couldn't give one nth of knowledge re contraindications, MOA, or antidotes to. My presumption is that that leniency was granted as those people have less access to any sort of healthcare let alone those "highly qualified" personnel that I assume you mean have done years and years of schooling.

Again, I'm suggesting that simple procedures that I do not think require years and years of schooling like administering a simple deltoid injection or cleaning teeth with floss + water are that unreasonable to allow someone with decent intellect to do after quick training. That isn't to suggest that people in these underserved areas are to any extent less deserving of high quality care, it is to address the reality that without these sort of leniencies, they wouldn't get that care at all. Again, simple vaccines and dental cleanings, not Whipple procedures and coronary bypass surgeries. Thanks for the thoughts.

No haha just was @‘ing you cause you chimed in too and I can’t figure out how to quote multiple people with this new quoting system. Passionate was @ the other dude.

*Gal. Couldn't those simple procedures you mentioned be taught to people from those countries? I'm sure they aren't short on people who would be willing to help each other out. Couldn't they train someone from those countries to "administer a simple shot to the deltoid" since, like you said, it's not that hard? That's all it takes right? Why do you feel the need to pay a ton of money to go do it? Why do you feel that the government (or whoever) should train a bunch of premeds and send them off to Africa, India, or wherever? What makes a bunch of American kids so special?

 

[YCAGA]

*Gal. Couldn't those simple procedures you mentioned be taught to people from those countries? I'm sure they aren't short on people who would be willing to help each other out. Couldn't they train someone from those countries to "administer a simple shot to the deltoid" since, like you said, it's not that hard? That's all it takes right? Why do you feel the need to pay a ton of money to go do it? Why do you feel that the government (or whoever) should train a bunch of premeds and send them off to Africa, India, or wherever? What makes a bunch of American kids so special?

This is why I tell people if they want to travel abroad, just go travel, no need to make it into a mission trip. Maybe take some language classes so you can get a little further off the tourist path if you are comfortable trying that.

I think it is much cooler for a premed to say they traveled through South America as a tourist for 8 weeks and spoke Spanish the entire time than to say they spent 8 weeks in the Peruvian jungle handing out acetaminophen. If you are going to do “aid work” as a premed, you could probably have paid for a skilled local to do it full time for at least a month or two with the money you spent on your airfare. That’s why to have any meaningful impact, you need to go somewhere for at least a few months, and that’s if you are a physician.

 

[lunarwater]

I have more clinical hours (1500+) and volunteer hours (100+), but nothing flashy. Is it worth reapplying to my instate and regional schools that pre-interview rejected me? What about schools that waitlisted me (3 this cycle)? It feels pathetic to reapply to those again, but if I stand a good chance of being reinterviewed I would definitely apply. I'm assuming there isn't any data on this. /: Any advice is helpful!! 🙂

So I will give some anecdotal advice. I received 4 II last cycle that led to 2 WL and 2 Rs. I reapplied to the 2 WL and 1 of the Rs. I got an early R from the R and have been accepted to both WLs actually. Of the schools who did not interview me last cycle that I reapplied to, one did interview me and I received an A from them.
This is anecdotal, and I definitely feel that I had a strong application last cycle (all 4 II were from top 25 ranked schools), but I felt short in my interviews and in tying together my narrative. I approached this cycle completely differently. I left my clinical job and started a nonclinical position that addressed what most would say was the weakest part of my app. I completed scrapped and rewrote (almost) all of my essays. I applied much more broadly. I have been accepted to 5 schools so far including my dream school.

I digress. The only advice that really matters is: Can you pinpoint your shortcomings in this cycle? and Are you able to fix it before the next cycle?
IF the answer is yes, and you do address it, reapply. If not, take a hard look at your app and take more time to fix them before spending the energy on a reapp.

 

[mmchick]

*Gal. Couldn't those simple procedures you mentioned be taught to people from those countries? I'm sure they aren't short on people who would be willing to help each other out. Couldn't they train someone from those countries to "administer a simple shot to the deltoid" since, like you said, it's not that hard? That's all it takes right? Why do you feel the need to pay a ton of money to go do it? Why do you feel that the government (or whoever) should train a bunch of premeds and send them off to Africa, India, or wherever? What makes a bunch of American kids so special?

I can’t answer a complex question on the state of affairs re ability of local population to work full time in a volunteer setting, unpaid, performing these types of services. My hunch is that it’s a third world country... not sure of how many people that live there can afford to do volunteer work when oftentimes there are much larger priorities in their life going on like actually finding paid work..

Since you agree that a local could do these simple procedures, I presume that supports my point that a premed could do it also without it being interpreted as “playing unqualified doc”. Appreciate it!

 

[BeingForItself]

I have more clinical hours (1500+) and volunteer hours (100+), but nothing flashy. Is it worth reapplying to my instate and regional schools that pre-interview rejected me? What about schools that waitlisted me (3 this cycle)? It feels pathetic to reapply to those again, but if I stand a good chance of being reinterviewed I would definitely apply. I'm assuming there isn't any data on this. /: Any advice is helpful!! 🙂

Hey OP, I'm a 4-time reapplicant and FWIW 4/5 of my interviews between the last cycle and current cycle (including my only A) came from schools that had pre-II rejected me in a prior cycle. I'm not sure about how admissions committees reassess reapplicants, but in my situation at least even if it has made getting interviews harder, it hasn't ultimately kept me out of med school.

 

[Ms Procrastinator]

I can’t answer a complex question on the state of affairs re ability of local population to work full time in a volunteer setting, unpaid, performing these types of services. My hunch is that it’s a third world country... not sure of how many people that live there can afford to do volunteer work when oftentimes there are much larger priorities in their life going on like actually finding paid work..

Since you agree that a local could do these simple procedures, I presume that supports my point that a premed could do it also without it being interpreted as “playing unqualified doc”. Appreciate it!

There's a 1st world country in every 3rd world country and a 3rd world country in every 1st world country. There would be people who have jobs and time to volunteer. There would also be people without jobs who'd be willing to help people in their communities. Wouldn't it make sense to use the local population that's there all the time than college kids on vacation. The local pop would be more reliable.

 

[theendisnigh]

@gonnif

I find this perspective interesting because although I agree pre-meds are not qualified to do any sort of seriously invasive procedure like a surgery, suturing, or imaging - I'd imagine that there would be some benefit that underserved countries/populations could get from premed work if procedures/efforts are kept to a limited/ethical standard. I completed a summer course in EMT-B work and within a couple months was administering glucagon, CPAP, dropping King airways, nitro, etc. without supervision which one could argue is "invasive" or to the very least could be detrimental to the patient's health in wrong contexts.. but someone's gotta do it, especially in the rural areas I was running where there weren't a lot of health professionals available and importantly in these underserved countries where I imagine that problem is only immensely magnified. I feel there is room for premeds that are properly trained in limited invasive procedures to help increase service in areas where there isn't a lot of supply. I don't think administering a vaccine (a simple shot to the deltoid) is that super complicated and could really help out a community trying to vaccinate individuals. In the US there are a plethora of people qualified to do so, but maybe not so much in countries that don't have a million and one providers or jobs to avoid giving someone with decent intellect a "on the spot" training to help out. Idk just some thoughts.

I find it peculiar we trust a 18 year old fresh EMT-B to decide on giving someone w/ chest pain in rural NC nitro without supervision, but it's taboo and frowned upon for that same 18 yr old to administer a vaccine that only requires muscle memory in an underserved community... I agree that there are bad apples that take advantage and do things they're definitely not qualified for in any reasonable mind, but to write off all premeds doing things maybe a bit more than what is regulated in the US to help out an underserved area has always been an odd standard to me.

You were dropping king airways as a basic??

 

[mmchick]

You were dropping king airways as a basic??

Yep! Pretty standard practice for rural south. Helped us a ton with starting codes cause half the time AEMTs+ weren’t on duty overnight/very few available to come respond in the middle of the night + it helped AEMTs+ start meds much quicker with EMTs able to establish airway/CPR on their own. Kings are pretty straightforward IMO, again just supporting my POV that any simple procedure can be taught pretty readily to most people without need for extensive schooling in areas that need the workforce pretty desperately.

 

[LGINGE]

As Gonnif pointed out international medical volunteering can be a bit touchy, especially given that a lot of self-righteous premeds are going abroad to pay to play doc and put people's lives in danger. As long as you don't do any procedures other than handing out water bottles or pain killers, especially unsupervised, I guess some schools won't hold it against you.

I personally don't think there's any reason why premeds should do clinical volunteering abroad instead of here because most of them aren't qualified to do anything there (and shouldn't be doing anything there) that they can't do here.

I just helped put on HIV education clinics and shadowed community health workers providing medications. Sorry about the wording, I think I put this under volunteer nonclinical for 2020 AMCAS.

 

[LGINGE]

Do you have any domestic clinical experience in your 1,500 hours? If so, how much?

All of that 1500 is domestic.

 

[LGINGE]

So I will give some anecdotal advice. I received 4 II last cycle that led to 2 WL and 2 Rs. I reapplied to the 2 WL and 1 of the Rs. I got an early R from the R and have been accepted to both WLs actually. Of the schools who did not interview me last cycle that I reapplied to, one did interview me and I received an A from them.
This is anecdotal, and I definitely feel that I had a strong application last cycle (all 4 II were from top 25 ranked schools), but I felt short in my interviews and in tying together my narrative. I approached this cycle completely differently. I left my clinical job and started a nonclinical position that addressed what most would say was the weakest part of my app. I completed scrapped and rewrote (almost) all of my essays. I applied much more broadly. I have been accepted to 5 schools so far including my dream school.

I digress. The only advice that really matters is: Can you pinpoint your shortcomings in this cycle? and Are you able to fix it before the next cycle?
IF the answer is yes, and you do address it, reapply. If not, take a hard look at your app and take more time to fix them before spending the energy on a reapp.

I have certainly been wracking my brain trying to find out what my weaknesses were. I did apply high this cycle, but also got two top 30 WLs so clearly I did at least some things right. When you say you rewrote most of your essays did this include the activities section? I wanna put a fresh spin on my primary and tie together my experiences better, but some of the descriptions seem unnecessary to reword.

 

[YCAGA]

All of that 1500 is domestic.

Don’t even mention the international stuff then. You have stellar, 99th percentile volunteering hours already.

 

[LGINGE]

Don’t even mention the international stuff then. You have stellar, 99th percentile volunteering hours already.

Why would I not mention the international hours if I did zero ethically ambiguous behaviors. At worst I shadowed community health workers. Not sure how that could hurt me..

 

[YCAGA]

Why would I not mention the international hours if I did zero ethically ambiguous behaviors. At worst I shadowed community health workers. Not sure how that could hurt me..

Why would it help you?

 

[LGINGE]

Why would it help you?

Exposure to other cultures? Health-education? Not everyone has been to rural kenya....idk man my guess is as good of yours with how these experiences are perceived by adcoms.

 

[YCAGA]

Exposure to other cultures? Health-education? Not everyone has been to rural kenya....idk man my guess is as good of yours with how these experiences are perceived by adcoms.

How did you pay for it? Regardless, and this is just my opinion, putting any international travel on your medical school application that isn’t a >1 year commitment is basically putting a vacation on AMCAS. And when you look at it like that, no one in their right mind would put “international vacation — 200 hours” on their application 😬

curious what @Goro @LizzyM and the other two adcoms who I have seen reply to threads recently think. I am lame and forget their usernames.

The one caveat I will say is that going somewhere to learn the language is different than a “medical mission” because foreign language fluency is a tangible skill you can bring back to the US, especially if the language is Spanish. That is also a far more genuine cultural exchange than just paying to shadow local doctors.

 

[LGINGE]

Those are definitely good points. Certainly was not a vacation, but easy to see how it could be viewed as such. I feel like a lot less noteworthy stuff makes it into activities sections so I assumed it would be helpful to include. Going to have to think about this one. Would love adcom input!!

 

[KnightDoc]

Those are definitely good points. Certainly was not a vacation, but easy to see how it could be viewed as such. I feel like a lot less noteworthy stuff makes it into activities sections so I assumed it would be helpful to include. Going to have to think about this one. Would love adcom input!!

You are 1,000% right about this. 🙂 The reason international experiences are so touchy is because, in an era of expanding access to med school, it reeks of privilege and therefore can be viewed with hostility. Extended service trips through organizations like the Peace Corps obviously do not fall into this category.

Along the lines of not mentioning your luxury vacation on your app, and adcoms loving service to under served communities, they tend to not give you an advantage on account of your trip to Kenya, in deference to every applicant who cannot afford a trip to Kenya. It's just something to be aware of. YMMV.

 

[LizzyM]

You are 1,000% right about this. 🙂 The reason international experiences are so touchy is because, in an era of expanding access to med school, it reeks of privilege and therefore can be viewed with hostility. Extended service trips through organizations like the Peace Corps obviously do not fall into this category.

Along the lines of not mentioning your luxury vacation on your app, and adcoms loving service to under served communities, they tend to not give you an advantage on account of your trip to Kenya, in deference to every applicant who cannot afford a trip to Kenya. It's just something to be aware of. YMMV.

Bingo! And as for culture... not very much use for knowledge of the cultural nuances of Kenya in the US. (https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/publications/RAD-KenyaII.pdf) That experience isn't going to help you take care of very many patients. If you had some experience with a subculture common in a specific area of the US where you will go to school or settle for your practice (Puerto Rican, Amish, Navajo, etc) depending on your location -- then you might be on to something but a travel experience to learn about an African culture is nothing that is going to impress medical school adcoms.

 

[YCAGA]

Bingo! And as for culture... not very much use for knowledge of the cultural nuances of Kenya in the US. (https://www.migrationpolicy.org/sites/default/files/publications/RAD-KenyaII.pdf) That experience isn't going to help you take care of very many patients. If you had some experience with a subculture common in a specific area of the US where you will go to school or settle for your practice (Puerto Rican, Amish, Navajo, etc) depending on your location -- then you might be on to something but a travel experience to learn about an African culture is nothing that is going to impress medical school adcoms.

Great reply. Much better articulated than I could have done.

Also OP, I don't think you fully grasp the waste of resources involved in transporting a premed to and from Kenya to shadow. If you really want a cultural exchange, go to a border town in Texas and shadow a bilingual PCP. That will be just as eye opening and much more applicable to American medicine. Also way cheaper...road trips can be fun 😀

 

[LGINGE]

Great reply. Much better articulated than I could have done.

Also OP, I don't think you fully grasp the waste of resources involved in transporting a premed to and from Kenya to shadow. If you really want a cultural exchange, go to a border town in Texas and shadow a bilingual PCP. That will be just as eye opening and much more applicable to American medicine. Also way cheaper...road trips can be fun 😀

I do fully grasp and struggled with the resources utilized for me to go to Kenya. Ultimately, the reason I went is that my family is heavily involved with a nonprofit based there (my dad is the chairman of the board) and my entire immediate family goes to the Lake Victoria area most years (pre-Covid) I understand the privilege, but I learned a lot and carry what I saw in Nairobi with me into clinical settings in the states (this is why I included it). I understand how it looks though and appreciate you driving this point home. I hope this wasn't something that actually worked against me this year. :/ Will not be including this experience next year if I don't make it off the WLs I am currently on.

 

[KnightDoc]

I do fully grasp and struggled with the resources utilized for me to go to Kenya. Ultimately, the reason I went is that my family is heavily involved with a nonprofit based there (my dad is the chairman of the board) and my entire immediate family goes to the Lake Victoria area most years (pre-Covid) I understand the privilege, but I learned a lot and carry what I saw in Nairobi with me into clinical settings in the states (this is why I included it). I understand how it looks though and appreciate you driving this point home. I hope this wasn't something that actually worked against me this year. :/ Will not be including this experience next year if I don't make it off the WLs I am currently on.

I honestly don't think it would actually hurt. It's just that, because of the issues articulated above, it doesn't tend to help, and the safest course of action is to not include things that don't help. I really wouldn't worry about it hurting you.

 

[YCAGA]

my dad is the chairman of the board

my entire immediate family goes to the Lake Victoria area most years

Couldn't have created a more privileged sounding narrative if I tried lol. You do acknowledge it though so that is the best anyone could ask for.

Now, is it your fault you were born with such resources? No, and I wouldn't look down on you for it. But I am not an adcom, and even if adcoms don't look down on it, including your trip to Kenya seems to imply that you think your experience in Kenya somehow strengthens your application. I personally don't think it means anything other than you have rich parents. Just because it is an African safari and not a yacht tour of the Med doesn't mean it doesn't scream privilege.

Also, international stuff as a premed is a Catch-22. If it isn't grossly unethical to patients, it is just going to be shadowing and maybe cleaning facilities and fetching supplies. You can do that in the US which is presumably where you want to practice medicine. It is at least where you will be doing your clinical years and probably your residency. And then if it is "cool" stuff you couldn't do in the US, you are being grossly unethical so the trip is still no good. In other words, "I didn't do anything unethical" isn't really a defense.

Like I have said before, if you studied Swahili for the last few years and went to Kenya for a summer to perfect your language skills, that would be a great thing to put on the app. Then you can more reasonably claim to want to do service work abroad in the future, or at least work with East African populations in the US.

 

[KnightDoc]

Couldn't have created a more privileged sounding narrative if I tried lol. You do acknowledge it though so that is the best anyone could ask for.

Now, is it your fault you were born with such resources? No, and I wouldn't look down on you for it. But I am not an adcom, and even if adcoms don't look down on it, including your trip to Kenya seems to imply that you think your experience in Kenya somehow strengthens your application. I personally don't think it means anything other than you have rich parents. Just because it is an African safari and not a yacht tour of the Med doesn't mean it doesn't scream privilege.

Also, international stuff as a premed is a Catch-22. If it isn't grossly unethical to patients, it is just going to be shadowing and maybe cleaning facilities and fetching supplies. You can do that in the US which is presumably where you want to practice medicine. It is at least where you will be doing your clinical years and probably your residency. And then if it is "cool" stuff you couldn't do in the US, you are being grossly unethical so the trip is still no good. In other words, "I didn't do anything unethical" isn't really a defense.

Like I have said before, if you studied Swahili for the last few years and went to Kenya for a summer to perfect your language skills, that would be a great thing to put on the app. Then you can more reasonably claim to want to do service work abroad in the future, or at least work with East African populations in the US.

THIS^^^^^!!! And, it isn't that anyone begrudges OP anything. It's just that, a generation ago, and forever before that, it was people with access to these things who had a leg up, and the privilege perpetuated itself, to the exclusion of those outside looking in.

Adcoms are more attuned to it now, and are trying to expand access. The less privileged will argue whatever they are doing is not enough, but it's more than it ever was before. As a result, they are just not going to give OP an advantage due to having access to experiences that aren't available to everyone whose parent is not a chairman of a board.

 

[lunarwater]

I have certainly been wracking my brain trying to find out what my weaknesses were. I did apply high this cycle, but also got two top 30 WLs so clearly I did at least some things right. When you say you rewrote most of your essays did this include the activities section? I wanna put a fresh spin on my primary and tie together my experiences better, but some of the descriptions seem unnecessary to reword.

Not all of my activities, but I rewrote 2/3 of my most meaningful to give perspective and switched out about 3 other activities. I would recommend having a pre-med advisor take a look at your app, and reach out to schools to see if they can provide any feedback.

 

[LGINGE]

Couldn't have created a more privileged sounding narrative if I tried lol. You do acknowledge it though so that is the best anyone could ask for.

Now, is it your fault you were born with such resources? No, and I wouldn't look down on you for it. But I am not an adcom, and even if adcoms don't look down on it, including your trip to Kenya seems to imply that you think your experience in Kenya somehow strengthens your application. I personally don't think it means anything other than you have rich parents. Just because it is an African safari and not a yacht tour of the Med doesn't mean it doesn't scream privilege.

Also, international stuff as a premed is a Catch-22. If it isn't grossly unethical to patients, it is just going to be shadowing and maybe cleaning facilities and fetching supplies. You can do that in the US which is presumably where you want to practice medicine. It is at least where you will be doing your clinical years and probably your residency. And then if it is "cool" stuff you couldn't do in the US, you are being grossly unethical so the trip is still no good. In other words, "I didn't do anything unethical" isn't really a defense.

Like I have said before, if you studied Swahili for the last few years and went to Kenya for a summer to perfect your language skills, that would be a great thing to put on the app. Then you can more reasonably claim to want to do service work abroad in the future, or at least work with East African populations in the US.

Again, as I noted before, we taught five day sexual education clinics alongside the local staff in three villages over two and a half weeks. Overall your point is still valid and I'm thankful for your help in seeing how this is almost certainly viewed by adcoms and the general public. Just seems backwards that my family could have spent their money on material things and no one would have batted an eye, but since they use their money to go to Kenya and encourage the staff doing the work day in and out, we are viewed as either unethical or ultra privileged.

 

[YCAGA]

Again, as I noted before, we taught five day sexual education clinics alongside the local staff in three villages over two and a half weeks. Overall your point is still valid and I'm thankful for your help in seeing how this is almost certainly viewed by adcoms and the general public. Just seems backwards that my family could have spent their money on material things and no one would have batted an eye, but since they use their money to go to Kenya and encourage the staff doing the work day in and out, we are viewed as either unethical or ultra privileged.

Would you put material things on a medical school application? That’s my point but I think you understand. I feel like I am beating a dead horse, which is my fault, and you get the situation.