Reapplying

[dmblue]

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I am sure some of you are going to tell me to not give up yet, but it is really starting to look like I will need to reapply next year.

My plan is to get a masters, publish a 1st author paper that I have slowly been working on and hopefully get a research project that I can start this summer and continue through next year. I am going to apply earlier this year and not break my arm the day my primary gets verified. Is there anything else I can do?

I am considering retaking the MCAT. A 36 is definitely good, but it seems like most people that get into the programs I applied to have 38-43's. Also my biology score was exceptionally low for me, so I don't really see too much potential for doing worse.

Additionally, the research I am interested in is somewhat specialized, and the schools that have more than 1-2 faculty in it are generally top schools. I am up for applying more broadly, but the schools need to have good Biomedical Engineering programs.


Questions:

1. Is there anything else I can do?
2. How do MSTPs look at people reapplying?
3. Can you apply to the PhD program at a school seperately from the MSTP? If so, do I need to do anything special.


Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[itsallthesame]

1. Is there anything else I can do?
2. How do MSTPs look at people reapplying?
3. Can you apply to the PhD program at a school seperately from the MSTP? If so, do I need to do anything special.

1. You can publish. I don't think the master's will help, nor will a better MCAT score. I know people who got into every mstp program (multiple top 10) they applied to with worse MCAT and no pubs. They did this by interviewing well. You need to improve your interviewing skills and reassess your motivations to make sure that they are in line with what directors want. You can also apply to some less selective schools. Remember, your PhD is training. MANY great scientists never do anything LIKE their PhD work for the rest of their lives. It's your post-doc training that needs to be like what you plan for a career.
2. No clue.
3. Yes. You simply apply to the MD program or MD/PhD program through AMCAS and the graduate program separately. However, you really need to think here: would I rather go to my ideal graduate program and pay my way through the MD or go to a second tier MD/PhD program for free?

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

I am sure some of you are going to tell me to not give up yet, but it is really starting to look like I will need to reapply next year.

My plan is to get a masters, publish a 1st author paper that I have slowly been working on and hopefully get a research project that I can start this summer and continue through next year. I am going to apply earlier this year and not break my arm the day my primary gets verified. Is there anything else I can do?

I am considering retaking the MCAT. A 36 is definitely good, but it seems like most people that get into the programs I applied to have 38-43's. Also my biology score was exceptionally low for me, so I don't really see too much potential for doing worse.

Additionally, the research I am interested in is somewhat specialized, and the schools that have more than 1-2 faculty in it are generally top schools. I am up for applying more broadly, but the schools need to have good Biomedical Engineering programs.


Questions:

1. Is there anything else I can do?
2. How do MSTPs look at people reapplying?
3. Can you apply to the PhD program at a school seperately from the MSTP? If so, do I need to do anything special.


Any advice would be appreciated.

Your MCAT is high enough that a retake is not going to substantially improve your application. I took it twice: 34 > 40, so that was a big improvement. It's unlikely that you can go from 36 to 42, just because is very, very hard to get and involves a ton of chance.

I applied twice. First time I had 2 interviews and just a waitlist came from that. Second time I had 18 interview invites and was accepted.

I did get a masters but had no publications when I applied or interviewed. I think recommendations and extra research experience actually count more than publications at this stage. The masters itself makes no difference - they just want the extra research experience.

MSTPs don't mind if people reapply. Lots of programs that didn't invite me to interview the first time did the second time. Similarly, the program I interviewed at two years previously (I didn't apply to the other one) invited me to interview again, so clearly it wasn't a weakness with them, either.

Don't pigeonhole yourself for research. Have clear interests, but make sure they are broad enough so that there's a fit at the program you're applying to. Check out their faculty and tweak your "interview interests" to be more in line with that. In general, go to a program with the broadest and best opportunities. What you may think is going to be "the lab" right now may end up not panning out and you want to have as many options as possible when the time comes to choose a lab.

 

[dmblue]

Your MCAT is high enough that a retake is not going to substantially improve your application. I took it twice: 34 > 40, so that was a big improvement. It's unlikely that you can go from 36 to 42, just because is very, very hard to get and involves a ton of chance.

I applied twice. First time I had 2 interviews and just a waitlist came from that. Second time I had 18 interview invites and was accepted.

I did get a masters but had no publications when I applied or interviewed. I think recommendations and extra research experience actually count more than publications at this stage. The masters itself makes no difference - they just want the extra research experience.

MSTPs don't mind if people reapply. Lots of programs that didn't invite me to interview the first time did the second time. Similarly, the program I interviewed at two years previously (I didn't apply to the other one) invited me to interview again, so clearly it wasn't a weakness with them, either.

Don't pigeonhole yourself for research. Have clear interests, but make sure they are broad enough so that there's a fit at the program you're applying to. Check out their faculty and tweak your "interview interests" to be more in line with that. In general, go to a program with the broadest and best opportunities. What you may think is going to be "the lab" right now may end up not panning out and you want to have as many options as possible when the time comes to choose a lab.

That's encouraging. I would bet getting a masters simply to give me something to do. I doubt I can find a full time paid research position, so I'd rather get a 1 year masters at my school while doing part time research. Also, I would probably only need 12 credit semesters to complete the requirements, meaning there would be ample research time....(edit...i just looked it up. i could potentially get a masters in 1 semester since i took so many extra undergad classes, so my 2 semesters would be VERY light)

My research interests are in tissue engineering, which is in itself reasonably broad (stem cells, biomaterials development, drug delivery, gene therapy, etc.). Any university with a top 20 BME department has enough faculty for me to work with.


Increasing 36-40 seems substantial to me, but i don't know.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

That's encouraging. I would bet getting a masters simply to give me something to do. I doubt I can find a full time paid research position, so I'd rather get a 1 year masters at my school while doing part time research. Also, I would probably only need 12 credit semesters to complete the requirements, meaning there would be ample research time....(edit...i just looked it up. i could potentially get a masters in 1 semester since i took so many extra undergad classes, so my 2 semesters would be VERY light)

My research interests are in tissue engineering, which is in itself reasonably broad (stem cells, biomaterials development, drug delivery, gene therapy, etc.). Any university with a top 20 BME department has enough faculty for me to work with.


Increasing 36-40 seems substantial to me, but i don't know.

Make sure the masters is mostly research based. If you spend mostly doing courses for a year, that will not be as good as doing mostly research. Also, I did two years (technically 1.5, I suppose), so that gave me much more research experience than I had in college.

 

[PerpetualPupil]

Are you able to contact the places that you've had rough luck with to see if they can provide some feedback? I've heard some med schools are willing to talk once the dust has settled.

 

[anemone2]

Are you able to contact the places that you've had rough luck with to see if they can provide some feedback? I've heard some med schools are willing to talk once the dust has settled.

This seems like a good idea. If you wind up reapplying, you'll need to figure out what went wrong this time. I don't think your MCAT score is a problem (you mentioned that one school seemed to take issue with it, but that same school took me with a 35, so perhaps that was a misunderstanding?)

Even though you applied late, you still got interviews at some sweet schools, so your research experiences and other parts of your application were deemed good enough. I would have to agree with itsallthesame in saying that the problem seems to lie at the interview stage. It's hard to offer specific critiques having never interviewed you, but maybe you can try thinking back to your interviewers responses at particular points during the interview to figure out what they liked/didnt? Also, try holding some practice interviews with people with varying degrees of familiarity with your research field and get feedback from them.

Finally..don't give up yet! 😛

 

[dmblue]

I do know that parts of two interviews at Emory weren't great, but I really thought I had great interviews overall at every school (apparently I was wrong). I have done practice interviews with premed advisers at my school, and they said that I was doing very well. I'll try talking to my BME adviser to see if she has suggestions.

 

[fairalexfield]

Definitely don't lose hope yet!

But if it comes to it, reapplying isn't so bad. I was a reapplicant this time around and I can tell you that it doesn't hurt your application at all. It's nice to take a year without classes/exams, etc. Also, it's been useful having a full time research experience because no matter how adamant you were as an undergraduate, it's nothing like putting all of your energy into a project. You'll learn a lot about yourself and about how certain (or not) you are that this is the right path for you. I was able to pick up many great offers despite my reapplicant status. As long as you're doing something constructive during a year off, it can only help. Definitely see what your weak points were (it wasn't your MCAT) and try to fix those up. I was weak on clinical experience, so I decided to come to the NIH where I could work in research yet be exposed to many clinical activities. Writing the essays again is easier the second time around, yet can get frustrating because you're trying to say essentially the same thing in a different way. I wish you the best of luck and once again, don't lose hope for this year! Stay proactive and keep in touch with the programs that are still an option.

 

[BNSN]

Hey, dMargul. I am fairly certain I met you at the Northwestern MSTP interview day on 1/14-1/16 🙂

I think anemone2 is right about your MCAT score. I got into that same school with a 36. Once you reach 35/36, improvements are only really needed for people who have weak components of their application. Since you interviewed at a lot of awesome schools, I really don't think your MCAT is a problem -- you clearly have the academic record to go to a great MSTP/Med school and do well and your interview offers are testament to that.

But, improving your MCAT can only help though, and if you think you can make a 38+, go for it -- but keep in my mind, of course, your score could go down and then you would be in a negative situation. The downside of a lower score, I think, is worse than the upside of a score improvement.

Additionally, you were WLed at Washu and Emory -- which says that the admissions committee of those two very highly ranked schools think you can be a physician. And, hopefully, you'll get taken off the waitlist soon.

 

[dmblue]

Additionally, you were WLed at Washu and Emory -- which says that the admissions committee of those two very highly ranked schools think you can be a physician. And, hopefully, you'll get taken off the waitlist soon.

I am pretty sure that nearly everyone who interviews gets waitlisted at Emory and WashU.

 

[dmblue]

In other news I am about to hear from UIC or Northwestern I think since they just ran a background check on me through amcas.

 

[Rowany]

Getting a masters and retaking the MCAT is a waste of time. With your stats the only important things are research experience and applying early (and well), and classes would only distract you from that. I'm surprised you don't think you could get a full-time paid research position. It's not too late to apply for post-bacc research programs, including an IRTA at the NIH. As long as you find a lab yourself to vouch for you (don't just depend on their database), you're in.
I have a 36 and a 3.85 GPA. But, I did 2 years post-bacc on top of my undergrad research with 1 first author papers and a couple co-authured, and was really passionate and showed them that I knew what I was getting into. I got 6+ acceptances at top schools.

Good luck!

 

[Jorje286]

I might end up reapplying too. I am waitlisted at one school and I'm pretty much accepted at another school, but they are waiting for their budget to come up to see if they can fully fund me (I'm international). I already have taken a year out, so I'd have to take another. How common is it for applicants to get in after taking 2 years off? I'll be 24 when (if) I get in. I'm getting discouraged by some of my relatives about the "age" factor, and how old I'll be when I finish my training (MSTP + residency).

 

[dmblue]

Also, I am pretty sure that I can extend the 1 year masters program by a year to increase the research involved. Even in 1 year, I am pretty sure I would only need to take 2 classes per semester, which would leave me with around 30 hours a week for research.

 

[lunarblue1386]

Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone knew if getting into an MD-only program would hurt the chances of reapplying next year to MD-PhD programs?

 

[GliaGirl]

Why would it? That doesn't make any sense to me. If anything it reinforces your commitment to the MD/PhD track if you have turned down MD only acceptances in the past.

 

[MudPhudHopeful]

I might end up reapplying too. I am waitlisted at one school and I'm pretty much accepted at another school, but they are waiting for their budget to come up to see if they can fully fund me (I'm international). I already have taken a year out, so I'd have to take another. How common is it for applicants to get in after taking 2 years off? I'll be 24 when (if) I get in. I'm getting discouraged by some of my relatives about the "age" factor, and how old I'll be when I finish my training (MSTP + residency).

Hey Jorje, taking two years off should not hurt you. I took two years off, and I was successful. I met a good number of people on the interview trail who had taken off multiples years as well (one had taken 4 years off and she was very successful...I think she is going to UT-Southwestern now) and it did not seem to hurt any of them.

 

[dmblue]

I got into UIC's med school, but I don't think I can take it. My family is really pushing me though. Apparently they have doubts that I can get into an MD Phd program with 1-2 years more research experience 🙁

 

[Doctor&Geek]

I got into UIC's med school, but I don't think I can take it. My family is really pushing me though. Apparently they have doubts that I can get into an MD Phd program with 1-2 years more research experience 🙁

Warning: turning down any acceptance at this point is a very large negative come reapplication time.

EDIT: If I were you, I would be sending LOIs to any remaining MSTP opportunities left i.e. "Hello Northwestern, accept me and I will definitely go to your school. Love, DMargul!" 😎

 

[dmblue]

Warning: turning down any acceptance at this point is a very large negative come reapplication time.

EDIT: If I were you, I would be sending LOIs to any remaining MSTP opportunities left i.e. "Hello Northwestern, accept me and I will definitely go to your school. Love, DMargul!" 😎

Why would turning down an acceptance to 1 med school be a negative during reapp time, especially a non MD PhD offer? I did send NW a LOI a month or so ago, but I never even got a waitlist email.

 

[fairalexfield]

Warning: turning down any acceptance at this point is a very large negative come reapplication time.

EDIT: If I were you, I would be sending LOIs to any remaining MSTP opportunities left i.e. "Hello Northwestern, accept me and I will definitely go to your school. Love, DMargul!" 😎

Absolutely NOT true at all!!!!!! I turned down an acceptance to an MSTP last year (UTSW) and I got many great acceptances this year. My year off helped my application tremendously regardless of whether I turned it down (I had a very legitamate reason, as do you dmargul).

My family was pushing me to go to UTSW last year as well. Sometimes you have to do what you think is best and don't cave into pressure from your parents. Of course they want you to go to med school it's safe and will take a load off of their minds, it's rather selfish in a way. Explain to them why the MD only path isn't for you and that with a year off and an early application you'll have a much better chance of getting into an MSTP.

 

[Doctor&Geek]

If Mr/Ms DrMargul holds an *MSTP* acceptance anywhere and doesn't take it because "their research in my field isn't good enough", that is a negative, sorry. However if it's just an MD-only offer, then that's legit. Still finding it hard to believe, though! 🙁

I'd keep pushing BNSN-style.

 

[dmblue]

If Mr/Ms DrMargul holds an *MSTP* acceptance anywhere and doesn't take it because "their research in my field isn't good enough", that is a negative, sorry. However if it's just an MD-only offer, then that's legit. Still finding it hard to believe, though! 🙁

I'd keep pushing BNSN-style.

Out of curiousity, what would you say if someone turned down an MSTP because they didn't like the school?

 

[xanthines]

Your numbers are very good and you interviewed at enough places that I feel retaking the MCAT is risky. Save the money and time to build a better application. Make sure your letters of rec are strong, as opposed to OK. Directly ask your letter writers if they are willing to write you a STRONG letter. Make sure your essays convey your motivation to pursue MSTP in a clear manner. Practice interviewing! The interviews pops up high on my index of suspicion. I feel something is not right there, but I could be wrong. I interviewed mostly at schools a step down from the ones to which you applied (my GPA/MCAT weren't nearly as impressive), but I was accepted to every place that interviewed me.

Think about this: Most MSTP's pay or reimburse you for the costs of interviewing. I don't think they'd hand out interview invites if they didn't like your application! 🙂

-X

P.S. I have contacts high up the MSTP administration at a school to which you applied. I know for sure that they rejected someone with a higher MCAT than you because interviewers didn't like him.

 

[BNSN]

I'd keep pushing BNSN-style.

Hahahaha.

🙂

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Out of curiousity, what would you say if someone turned down an MSTP because they didn't like the school?

Same reason as anyone who turns down school X as "undesirable" - they're not serious about it. "I didn't like the school" is a subjective judgment that will lead every school you apply to next time to question whether or not you think their school is "good enough" for you. All schools will know the next time around when you apply, so you had better have a good reason. It may not be an app killer, but it will be something to give them pause.

Just to note, I've seen some arguments against my position (it's only a negative at the school which you turn down, etc.), so this is just MHO.

And I agree with most of the posters above - retaking the MCAT is a bad idea, and getting a masters as opposed to focusing on research is a bad idea - masters implies taking classes. Get better letters, pubs, and interview coaching, and apply more widely next time, and don't get a broken arm! 🙂

 

[dmblue]

Same reason as anyone who turns down school X as "undesirable" - they're not serious about it. "I didn't like the school" is a subjective judgment that will lead every school you apply to next time to question whether or not you think their school is "good enough" for you. All schools will know the next time around when you apply, so you had better have a good reason. It may not be an app killer, but it will be something to give them pause.

Just to note, I've seen some arguments against my position (it's only a negative at the school which you turn down, etc.), so this is just MHO.

And I agree with most of the posters above - retaking the MCAT is a bad idea, and getting a masters as opposed to focusing on research is a bad idea - masters implies taking classes. Get better letters, pubs, and interview coaching, and apply more widely next time, and don't get a broken arm! 🙂

I just talked to my advisor. I am going to be taking a total of 18 credits the 1st year. 6 of which will be Directed Research (also known as do research and write a report about it). This means I will have 6 credit semesters and the rest of my time will be devoted to research (20-30 hours per week). My second year and both summers would be full time research without classes.

I think that 2 years is better than 1 so that there is an actual change in my application when I reapply.

 

[gstrub]

Those years add up man. Trust me.

 

[GliaGirl]

I think that 2 years is better than 1 so that there is an actual change in my application when I reapply.

The fact that you interviews at such good schools means that your application is fine. Obviously if you're reapplying, you should do research during the year, but wasting 2 years getting a master's degree seems excessive. Also, why pay for the degree when you can spend the year getting paid to work in a lab and do research?

You got interviews, so you made the cut. The only thing that could be holding you back is your interviews. Listen to what everyone here is saying: there is something wrong with your interviews (sorry if this sounds rude, but it is most likely true). A Master's degree will not make you a better interviewee.

 

[URHere]

I just talked to my advisor. I am going to be taking a total of 18 credits the 1st year. 6 of which will be Directed Research (also known as do research and write a report about it). This means I will have 6 credit semesters and the rest of my time will be devoted to research (20-30 hours per week). My second year and both summers would be full time research without classes.

I think that 2 years is better than 1 so that there is an actual change in my application when I reapply.

I just want to throw our my opinions on taking time off to get a MS. I went through a 1-year Master's program the year I applied, and I found it helpful in my specific case. I took 30 credit hours (only 8 counted for research), but worked in lab full time in order to complete my thesis research (got several presentations and a pending paper out of this). You will have enough time to get significant research experience out of it if you are willing to work harder than the 1st year PhD students you will probably be taking classes with. If you aren't willing to put in nights and weekends, you would probably be better off just doing straight lab research.

As for the academic side of things, I had several interviewers tell me that they were impressed by the fact that I've been through my old school's entire first year PhD curriculum while also doing full time research. I am also planning to petition to opt out of first year PhD courses at my current school, because I have already gone through comparable ones (one previous student has done this with a MS), and I expect this to save me at least some time during my PhD.

Will it help you if your problem is with something like interviewing? Probably not. The money is something to seriously consider, and if your program requires you to defend a thesis before graduation, know that it is very hard to balance research, classes, and interviewing at the same time. If your research is lacking, you could probably gain a similar benefit by just doing full time lab work, while saving yourself stress and money. Only go the MS route if you have a solid reason (for me, it was to make sure that I actually liked graduate school and independent research before I applied, and my MS research made up much of my substantial research experience). Otherwise, there are better ways to improve your application.