Reasonable/Ethical to Apply to MD Schools When Deferred at a DO?

[docycle]

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Ok ok. Don't jump down my throat like in the other threads on this. I'm simply wondering, because I really, truly, honestly never would have, in a million years, thought this could be unethical. Why, you ask? You're not taking up a spot at all if you apply early in the next MD cycle and immediately free up your DO spot once you've secured an acceptance (say in like Sept-Nov time frame).

So here's the basic gist: want to go is, but will go oos if need be. Willing to wait a year just to go instate. A DO school has granted an acceptance, which they have agreed to defer on the basis of an instate opportunity. I am wondering if it is reasonable/ethical for one to apply to instate DOs/MDs, or if this is something that could potentially get one blacklisted at all schools.

And just to be extra clear, I'm asking because at this point, I truly don't know. Previous threads have mentioned that deferrals on the basis of reapplying are wrong/unethical, but that is not why I deferred. I actually have a legitimate and prestigious clinical opportunity to pursue in the mean time, as well as the fact that I could work and bring in some income to cover a good portion of tuition (have a 50k+ job lined up if I'm sticking around). That is why they granted it. I'm just wondering if I also want to apply instate, is that grounds for rescindment or me being blacklisted from the schools I apply to? I'm really not trying to step on toes here. Should I let the school I'm accepted to know I want to do this? What do you think their response would be? Isn't it reasonable to want to go instate due to personal connections/lower tuition rates? Or would they be so offended that they are a "second choice" as to totally rescind me for even asking?

I don't know. Give me your thoughts. Adcoms preferred. @LizzyM @Goro @gyngyn Btw I've heard you guys out on other threads of this type, but note this is a little different. I've already got the deferral, because I have a legitimate reason for deferring. If I also happen to apply to see if I get into an instate, is that wrong? How would you guys view it? I don't know, I just feel like I've heard of other people doing this and turning out fine. I thought it wasn't too uncommon. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

 

[gyngyn]

Did your deferment come with the stipulation that you not re-apply?
Did you tell them that you would not re-apply?

 

[Goro]

In a very oblique way, I asked our wily old Admissions dean about your scenario. I was surprised to hear that the admission deans at DO schools do know their counterparts at other DO and MD schools, and their is some underground communications done informally. Almost like a social network. So, my answer is, yes, they can find out if a dean is diligent enough to ask about you.

Be that as it may, I strongly recommend that you aim for the MD school, because it clear that you don't want to be a DO. I rather your seat go to someone who does want to do so.

Ok ok. Don't jump down my throat like in the other threads on this. I'm simply wondering, because I really, truly, honestly never would have, in a million years, thought this could be unethical. Why, you ask? You're not taking up a spot at all if you apply early in the next MD cycle and immediately free up your DO spot once you've secured an acceptance (say in like Sept-Nov time frame).

So here's the basic gist: I want to go instate, but I will go oos if need be. I am willing to wait a year just to go instate (personal reasons -- yeah yeah I'm an idiot and a fool and my career should come first and I'm just a kid and don't know anything and money/power is all that matters and you can't trust anyone so I should just pursue my career asap blahblah etc.). A DO school has granted me an acceptance, which they have agreed to defer on the basis of an instate opportunity. I am wondering if it is reasonable/ethical to apply to instate DOs/MDs, or if this is something that could potentially get me blacklisted at all schools.

And just to be extra clear, I'm asking because at this point, I truly don't know. Previous threads have mentioned that deferrals on the basis of reapplying are wrong/unethical, but that is not why I deferred. I actually have a legitimate and prestigious clinical opportunity to pursue in the mean time, as well as the fact that I could work and bring in some income to cover a good portion of tuition (have a 50k+ job lined up if I'm sticking around). That is why they granted it. I'm just wondering if I also want to apply instate, is that grounds for rescindment or me being blacklisted from the schools I apply to? I'm really not trying to step on toes here. Should I let the school I'm accepted to know I want to do this? What do you think their response would be? Isn't it reasonable to want to go instate due to personal connections/lower tuition rates? Or would they be so offended that they are a "second choice" as to totally rescind me for even asking?

I don't know. Give me your thoughts. Adcoms preferred. @LizzyM @Goro @gyngyn Btw I've heard you guys out on other threads of this type, but note this is a little different. I've already got the deferral, because I have a legitimate reason for deferring. If I also happen to apply to see if I get into an instate, is that wrong? How would you guys view it? I don't know, I just feel like I've heard of other people doing this and turning out fine. I thought it wasn't too uncommon. Maybe I'm wrong, though.

 

[docycle]

Did your deferment come with the stipulation that you not re-apply?
Did you tell them that you would not re-apply?

No and no. There was no agreement to sign.

In a very oblique way, I asked our wily old Admissions dean about your scenario. I was surprised to hear that the admission deans at DO schools do know their counterparts at other DO and MD schools, and their is some underground communications done informally. Almost like a social network. So, my answer is, yes, they can find out if a dean is diligent enough to ask about you.

This is what I was thinking.

Be that as it may, I strongly recommend that you aim for the MD school, because it clear that you don't want to be a DO. I rather your seat go to someone who does want to do so.

I'm sorry. I actually shouldn't have titled it the way I did. I should have said something more along the lines of "defer to apply instate." I just thought deferring to apply MD (this is something I have heard of being done) may be more accepted than deferring to apply to a different DO (something I haven't heard of being done).

My experience would say this actually beyond uncommon and quite rare in fact

As @gyngyn has rightly proposed, you may violated your deferral agreement by applying to any other medical school (or other educational program for that matter). It depends on what the agreement says and why it was granted; do you have something in writing as your request for deferral expressing the desire to apply instate then a deferral being granted on that basis? If not, then in all likelihood, you have violated the terms of the agreement and they could rescind the acceptance.

The above isnt an ethical quandary but rather a clear fact than can be proven or not.

Right. There is nothing in writing stating I should not apply elsewhere. Therefore I am just wondering if I can assume that I could do so.

The ethical question is whether you inform the deferring school or not of your intention or actually applying to another program.

Not to jump down your throat but to be clear for other readers of this thread
Let me be very clear to all for most schools that have granted you a deferral, applying to another school is beyond unethical and is simply wrong as a violation of agreement. Not only is any intention or actuality of applying to a different program unethical, but not informing the deferring school would be an unethical act. Any intention or discussion of how to prevent them from finding out would be a second unethical act no different than covering up any illegal act.

Well, it's not a violation of any agreement. The agreement is informal and basically just requires that I do what I said I'd do. There was no stipulation stating I can't do....well, anything really. Currently, I have no intention to apply to any other program, unless it would be absolutely certain that it is ethical to do so. I believe this would require me contacting the school directly about it. In any case, I see what you are saying, but I do find the idea that applying to a different program is unethical to be a stretch, which is why I was interested in what justifications would be posed for why applying elsewhere is unethical.

In any case, interesting points raised so far. I had never intended to do this due to even the possibility of it being misconstrued as an unethical act, but it has raised some interesting questions in my mind about the process. It's very unusual, indeed.

 

[docycle]

That one DO medical school would somehow be okay with you holding a seat and applying to an MD school would be acceptable? I am shaking my head at that thought.

As we all know, there's no guarantee anyone is getting in anywhere. I figured perhaps they would understand why I would be more inclined to go instate, albeit if I didn't get in instate I still would want to go to their school. It's really a personal matter. Has nothing to do with DO vs. MD or prestige or whatever, which I have no stake in. Sorry @Goro for that confusion. Heck, if I lived in the other state that the school is in, I wouldn't even be asking this question. It's not a question of school vs. school, really at all. And I know I mentioned tuition before but at the end of the day that doesn't matter much to me. Would just be another supplemental reason I guess.

 

[----x----]

If i were an admissions member I wouldn't like people I granted deferral to to then apply the next cycle. I would expect their deferral was for a reason other than just that they didn't really want to go to my school but didn't want to reject an offer.

 

[GrapesofRath]

This isnt really about ethics it comes down to what you specifically agreed to when deferral was granted. Best to check the very specific stipulations of this agreement. Go through them closely. See what there might be in the agreement that the DO school you applied to has the right to revoke the acceptance you were given if you apply elsewhere this year. Nobody on SDN can answer that part for you other than to say usually some form of stipulation of this manner is often present. All these ethical and moral quandaries arent really what's directly relevant.

Note some MD schools will ask about previous application cycles to any med school including DO. Those are the ones most likely to have issue with someone rejecting DO a acceptance and reapplying. But at the same time these schools if they choose to accept you will know about such a decision well in advance. You havent withheld information from any MD school if they dont ask about previous application cycles to non MD schools.

If in fact you have agreed not to reapply already and choose to do so then yes risk/reward ratio of doing something such as breaching the agreement you signed is not in your favor at all

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Well, it's not a violation of any agreement. The agreement is informal and basically just requires that I do what I said I'd do. There was no stipulation stating I can't do....well, anything really

Remember that even if it isn't explicitly stated schools can still revoke your acceptance I believe for doing this. You are almost literally playing with fire next to a hay barn

 

[Crayola227]

First of all, a year making 50k I don't see as the sort of financial opportunity that you should put off starting med school

I also don't see the difference in pricetag IS vs OOS to justify it either
I'll tell you why before people start doing math
it's a 7 year marathon to be a practicing doc, illness can strike at any time, and if doesn't totally derail you even just a gap can change your life dramatically
it's the most *inflexible* time in your career and the sooner you get it done the better
you will likely never be as healthy as you are now, and every year of your life is another year something can go wrong

I know one resident crippled with MS at 33, and one attending fam med doc out with lupus at 33
BIG difference. One will be getting 60% salary and $45K a year for life, the other will be getting SSI which is closer to $8k a YEAR (not counting medicaid, $160 foodstamps, ~$400 housing assistance, or public utility assistance)
the big difference was a just a few years and who made it out of residency into practice first

rant aside,
I think it depends on how much this school wants you, and WHY you are approaching them to try to reapply and stay in state

"I am honored to be accepted to this school and to have a sure seat here to train to be a doctor and live my dreams. That is so important to me I will make any personal sacrifice. However, my father has been diagnosed with metastatic colon cancer. Despite this, I applied to school in good faith of attending wherever I had a final acceptance. My father supports me pursuing medicine wherever it takes me despite his health. I know I was very lucky to be accepted here and to be granted this deferral for X reasons. However, I can't help but wonder if there is any way during this deferral, to apply to xyz school closer to my ailing father. That would be the ideal balance between my career goals and time that may be limited with him. I know this would be a great inconvenience to this school (it likely isn't but say this anyway). I know that one option is to give up my seat to do this, but as I said practicing medicine is my #1 priority. I know this is unusual, and I hope that asking doesn't reflect too badly on my commitment to medicine or to this institution. If there is no way for me to hold my seat here while I try again to get closer to home and my ailing father, I will of course respect the school's policy on this and look forward to honoring my commitment in the fall.

OP, I was in a, hmm, sorta but not quite similar situation as you.

I don't know what your personal reasons are and that affects how sympathetic you can come off here and hope not to be too offensive.

I think depending how you explain your dilemma and exactly *why* you are asking, how "compelling" your personal reason is, can make a big difference in how much it will hurt you to ask the school. It depends on a lot of things but sometimes you can pull this off if at no point do you smack of the following:
not committed to the medicine
not appreciative enough of the school's acceptance
crappy reason
dishonest
and I'm not sure you pass the sniff test with all of that here

The ethical dilemma is if you don't say anything to this school and try to do it behind their backs. Don't do that. If you ask their permission, in my mind, there is no ethical violation. You do, however, risk them saying no, being offended, holding it against you in an unconscious bias as you train, although I'm not sure they'd rescind an offer over you just asking if your reason is sympathetic unless they call bull**** on your original stated reasons for deferral. That's sort of what's making me hesitate to tell you to *carefully* ask them.

You could talk to an ombudsperson at your school about this dilemma but check about confidentiality first (usually policy is they keep whatever you say to themselves unless you give them permission otherwise to act on your behalf). They will likely know the culture of the school better but it's hard to say if they have any experience with anything similar, but they might be able to give you an idea how this would be received by admin or to help you.

If I was admin, the above would fly for me except I'm suspicious that the request to defer wasn't for your originally stated reasons but so you could pull this move, which doesn't sit right with me (but I might forgive for dad's cancer), but I'm suspicious this is for a boyfriend or girlfriend / just want to be close to home / cost of attendance which REALLY sits wrong with me.

Serious illness in an immediate family member can garner decent amounts of sympathy from the medical hierarchy, (moreso than for yourself as a rule) but never expect it, and nothing else will get you sympathy.

 

[deleted480308]

I'd drop you in an instant if I was adcom at your deferred school and found out.

You're out trying to hook up while a perfectly good girl is waiting for you at home......even if you get away with it, it's crappy

 

[DokterMom]

A deferral is like an engagement.
You're engaged.
Looking for other people to date now is not ethical, no matter how hot they are.

And I agree with @Crayola227 You won't get rich on $50K per year and considering that the 'price' of deferral is a loss of an attending salary for a year (let's say $250 seven years for now), it's not a sound financial decision.

Doing this for a girl/guy? The right partner will stick with you long distance. The wrong partner is not worth deferring for.

 

[gyngyn]

I'd drop you in an instant if I was adcom at your deferred school and found out.

You're out trying to hook up while a perfectly good girl is waiting for you at home......even if you get away with it, it's crappy

Your signature brought grin to my tired face. Thanks.