rep of school = better residency

[ultane123]

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i'm at 3rd year at UVA and my friend is 3rd year at penn med. he tells me that even the average penn student can be competitve for radiology and ENT residencies, even with board scores in the 220's and no AOA.

at UVA, you need to be near the top of the class with AOA and higher board scores.

so, does it really make a differnce where you go to med school? are the entry standards lower for students at "better" med schools for competitive fields?

u.

 

[Idiopathic]

It makes a difference, AFTER board scores, clinical grades, away evaluations, LOR, research and interview (not in that order). If all those things are equal, then the Penn grad might have more of an advantage, but the UVa grad might have an advantage at some programs (is the PD an ACC alum?)...so you never know.

 

[ny skindoc]

Yes, school reputation does count up to a point. A look at the recent Columbia matchlists reveals that most graduates did their residencies at top level programs and even among those in competitive specialties..ie Optho,Ortho,Rads they matched to very strong places.That is a function of the type of student who ends up there, as well as the connections their well known /well published faculty will have.This benefit goes to a very small number of elite schools of which Penn is one.Once you get past the so called "top 20" or so it makes much less difference and below the "top 30" the matchlists are very similar in quality.

 

[Apollyon]

I know a guy that went to Penn, applied to 31 places for ortho, interviewed at 16, and matched at #16. Go figure.

 

[ckyuen]

I agree that school can help you out, but more importantly establish connections with prominent faculty in the field your applying for a spot. Letters from these faculty will go a long way. If one of them calls programs on your behalf that will go a very long way

 

[ckyuen]

I agree that school can help you out, but more importantly establish connections with prominent faculty in the field your applying for a spot. Letters from these faculty will go a long way. If one of them calls programs on your behalf that will go a very long way

 

[TulaneKid24]

I think going to an Ivy league school and getting good letters go hand in hand. It is must more likely that the departments at top tier schools are filled with the superstars in the field.

This is not always the case, but your chances of having access to better mentors, well known faculty and research are increased exponentially if you attend an Ivy school.

 

[Asher]

Having letters from the "big name" faculty will help you if that person can write you a good letter (one that is personalized, shows that they worked with you enough to really observe your patient care skills, etc.). I had an offer from a "big name" that I had done research with for a LOR and chose instead to go with a faculty member who had observed me clinically instead. I've had several places ask me why I didn't go with a letter from the big name and I've responded that I felt the other faculty members could give a better impression of my actual ability level. The interviewers reaction to that answer has been uniformly positive and I've even had people comment that it showed a greater level of maturity to have done what I did.

Of course, ymmv, but the programs that have commented negatively about my choice of med school (only a couple) were programs that I generally disliked and came across as elitist (not an environment I would be happy in).

 

[Loves_Chai]

Even from an Ivy League school, to get into a very competitve residency you have to do well, (220 Board score is doing very, very well). Connections help but you also have to do well while at the school.

To the 1st poster from UVA:
Did your friend at Penn mention to you how the Dean's Letter at Penn is written and consturcted? If hasn't, didn't ask him.

Here is what I know: At Penn what they do is organize all of the students according to their 4-yr academic performance in groups of: Outstanding as compared to the class, Above average as compared to the class, average as compared to the class, below average as compared to the class. This is written directly on your deans letter along with a standard curve graph specifically pointing out where you are on the curve, saying out of X number of students this student stands here. Dean's letters normally write "ambiguous" descriptors which denote what type of applicant you are (good, very good, etc.), but at Penn they specifically pointout where you are in the class. So What you say... Well if you have not performed well and your Letter says average or below average on it, residency directors ARE going to notice this and shove your letter into the waitlist or not to be interviewed pile. Believe me there are people who don't perform well at Penn (or other Ivy League schools) and the school name will not help them if their Dean's letters are not great as well.

I bring this up because I had a friend two years ago who applied for ENT, with boards of around 220, but with a Penn Dean's Letter that said he "performed below average as compared to the rest of his class", complete with graph, and he got very few (~3 interviews). He was angry and bitter about the situation and said that if he had know this he would have gone to a different medschool. He had some connections too. This is just to let you know about how the Penn Dean's Letter works.

To future medstudents on interviews, now. Ask questions about th Dean's Letter. How are Deans Letters constructed, worded, and written at the school you are interviewing at. Are there Graphs on it? Is it an accurate representation of your 3 years? Will you get to see it before it is sent out? Have there been any complaints about the content of the letters from 4th year students.

Its all about personal performace (and some connections) so continue to work hard. There are no easy short cuts, some just find out later than others.

 

[mpp]

Originally posted by Loves_Chai
(220 Board score is doing very, very well

Maybe 10 years ago this was true. The national average is 217...220 is above average but not deserving of two verys...

 

[Goober]

Originally posted by mpp
Maybe 10 years ago this was true. The national average is 217...220 is above average but not deserving of two verys...

yah I have heard that the averages at some medical schools these days is over 230. The USMLE needs to reset the percentiles to correspond with the students taking the exam that year. Everybody has inflated scores these days because now that the test has been out for awhile people now have access to exam prep course and books. Comparing them to the group of students that took the test when it was brand new is unfair.
They have raised that minimal passing score 3 times! Is it because med students are suddenly smarter? Obviously not.

 

[PsychNOS]

I would caution those that are reading this thread. The information posted about Penn's Dean's letter is absolutely incorrect. I've been shown an example of this year's Dean's letter there and it does not specifically pinpoint a student's overall ranking within the class with a bar graph, bell curve, or otherwise. I guess you have to take what's posted on a public message board with a grain of salt.

 

[Been there]

Better school rep can help you get into a better residency, but it is not a free pass into the speciality of your choice. What I am saying is that if you are going to match in ENT, you might get into a better program in ENT. Ivy on the wall does not mean free pass. It has never been that way. The only free passes has been from two major schools, Harvard and Hopkins. Even that is no longer true. The grading system at Havard makes it difficult to eval their student, and most program would like to match a Harvard grad. However, there has been a number of students from Harvard who did not match last year.

AOAs are only offerred at selected schools. Therefore, it means nothing if your school doesn't offer it.

Boards scores of 220 are not consider good. It is considered as average.

 

[elias514]

Yeah, those Harvard and Hopkins people have it made. Those diplomas really are golden tickets. I wish I had applied HMS and Hopkins. Oh well. Too late now!

 

[amdap]

Originally posted by Been there


AOAs are only offerred at selected schools. Therefore, it means nothing if your school doesn't offer it.

Boards scores of 220 are not consider good. It is considered as average.

Is this true? I had no idea there wasn't AOA at all schools.

Also, is it true about boards of 220 being the average? I hadn't heard that.

 

[ny skindoc]

Almost all US med schools with a few notable exceptions have AOA chapters,(Harvard,Mayo)Ifyour school does not have one it won't hurt you. Click on chapters for a list http://www.alphaomegaalpha.org/Chapters/ListAllChapters.htm

 

[doc_strange2001]

Originally posted by amdap
Is this true? I had no idea there wasn't AOA at all schools.

Also, is it true about boards of 220 being the average? I hadn't heard that.

avg board scores were 215 for when i took it (2001)

 

[SoCalDreamin']

Here is how to interpret USMLE scores:

First, start off with the national average. The year I took Step I, the national average was 216.

Now, in order to determine percentiles, one must think in terms of standard deviations. According to the NBME score report, one standard deviation from the mean is equal to 20 points on the three digit scoring scale. Thus, two standard deviations is reflected by 40 points.

One standard deviation above any mean, given a bell-shaped distribution, places an individual at the 67th percentile. Two standard deviations above the mean would place one at the 95th percentile.

With this knowledge in mind, here is how to interpret USMLE scores:

Score..........176.......196......216......236......256
Percentile....5th.......33rd....50th.....67th.....95th

I hope this helps.

 

[TulaneKid24]

Originally posted by SoCalDreamin'
Here is how to interpret USMLE scores:

First, start off with the national average. The year I took Step I, the national average was 216.

Now, in order to determine percentiles, one must think in terms of standard deviations. According to the NBME score report, one standard deviation from the mean is equal to 20 points on the three digit scoring scale. Thus, two standard deviations is reflected by 40 points.

One standard deviation above any mean, given a bell-shaped distribution, places an individual at the 67th percentile. Two standard deviations above the mean would place one at the 95th percentile.

With this knowledge in mind, here is how to interpret USMLE scores:

Score..........176.......196......216......236......256
Percentile....5th.......33rd....50th.....67th.....95th

I hope this helps.

These calculations are not correct. The correct approximations should be as follows:

176 = 5 %-tile, 196 = 16%-tile, 216 = 50%-tile, 236 = 84% - tile, 256 = 95%-tile.

Hope that helps!

 

[SoCalDreamin']

Originally posted by TulaneKid24
These calculations are not correct. The correct approximations should be as follows:

176 = 5 %-tile, 196 = 16%-tile, 216 = 50%-tile, 236 = 84% - tile, 256 = 95%-tile.

Hope that helps!

Actually, we are both wrong. I took a look at a biostatistics textbook and determined the correct approximations. They are as follows:

176 = 2.3 %-tile
196 = 15.9 %-tile
216 = 50 %-tile
236 = 84.1 %-tile
256 = 97.7 %-tile

I did a web search to verify this info. Here is the link:
http://www.concordspedpac.org/Bell-curve-ss.htm