Reputable ortho programs?

[Budmano786]

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Hey guys...new here, hope to contribute 👍

From what you guys have gathered, what would you say are the well-known and reputable ortho programs in the nation? I'm trying to compile a list of what I have heard are the good and the bad schools...for example, I hear West Virginia, Chapel Hill, VCU are solid programs while University of Colordao and Jacksonville are not...anyone care to share what they have heard or know to be good programs (particularly clinical based, not research-oriented).

Thanks!

 

[DDSSlave]

Of the ones you've mentioned I've heard great things about VCU's clinical program. Chapel Hill has a strong reputation for it's research, I don't know anything about it's clinical program although there are some SDN posters starting the program next year. Maybe they'll chime in.

My two favorite programs that I visited last year that struck me as strongly clinical were Houston and Kansas City. I believe UMKC had you in clinic 4 days/wk and Houston all 5 days/wk. Oklahoma struck me as a good laid back clinical program. Same with Baylor with clinic 3 1/2-4 days/wk. San Antonio seemed like they were in a period of transition. A little less clinic 2 1/2 days/wk. The residents were very cool. It's still a young program and they just got a new chair who seems to be taking it in the right direction.

I wouldn't apply to any OEC school unless you think you don't have a shot at a traditional ortho program.

 

[NUKE]

Louisville is good 30hrs. clinical per week with nice facilities. VCU is good clinical too. If you want to learn from the big guys go to Wash. Mich. UNC etc. Also, from what I have seen, st. louis has a good program with nice facilities.

 

[indeep]

I wouldn't apply to any OEC school unless you think you don't have a shot at a traditional ortho program.

Is that because of a stigma that may be attached to you even if you apply for a non-OEC spot at an OEC affiliated school, or are you referring to an OEC "scholarship" spot itself?

I am just curious, because I have heard that you may be "black balled" by another program if you apply to an OEC program even for a non-OEC spot, and apply to another program as well. Anyone know if there is any truth to that?

I feel like I am strong candidate (94 part I, 3/75 class rank, research publications, externships/visits, etc.) and I go to an OEC affiliated school, but I am applying to like 25 schools. My dean told me that I should apply to my home school program or it may look bad, but then others have told me about the "black ball" rumor. Any info would help a lot.

 

[DDSSlave]

I am just curious, because I have heard that you may be "black balled" by another program if you apply to an OEC program even for a non-OEC spot, and apply to another program as well. Anyone know if there is any truth to that?

I've seen enough winks and nods in my ortho interviews when this subject was brought up to convince me that programs frown upon applicants applying to OEC. I personally wouldn't apply there if I were you.

As an anecdote, probably the one question I got at all my interviews was what I thought about OEC.

 

[indeep]

So I take that to mean not even for a non-OEC spot.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Budmano786]

thanks for the replies 👍

definitely gonna make sure I know OEC's inside and out

 

[Teefies]

I feel like I am strong candidate (94 part I, 3/75 class rank, research publications, externships/visits, etc.) and I go to an OEC affiliated school, but I am applying to like 25 schools. My dean told me that I should apply to my home school program or it may look bad, but then others have told me about the "black ball" rumor. Any info would help a lot.[/QUOTE]

Apply to more schools. You are a strong candidate for perio, probably average candidate for ortho. I have several friends that didn't match first time around, and they both had incredible grades/board scores/class rank. Good luck.

 

[dc-10]

I feel like I am strong candidate (94 part I, 3/75 class rank, research publications, externships/visits, etc.) and I go to an OEC affiliated school, but I am applying to like 25 schools. My dean told me that I should apply to my home school program or it may look bad, but then others have told me about the "black ball" rumor. Any info would help a lot.

Apply to more schools. You are a strong candidate for perio, probably average candidate for ortho. I have several friends that didn't match first time around, and they both had incredible grades/board scores/class rank. Good luck.

That might be a stretch. Someone from my school (not an Ivy) was 10th out of 90, had part I 93, applied to 7 schools and got 5 interviews, and matched on 1st attempt.

 

[Tarheel]

If you want to learn from the big guys go to Wash. Mich. UNC etc.

I am obviously biased towards UNC, but I would have to agree with these three schools being at the top of many lists. They all have very strong clinical, didactic, and research reputations.

I'll second DDSSlave on Houston based on my brothers experience interviewing there. He was very impressed. Others schools I have been impressed with directly or indirectly are Minnesota, Alabama, Baylor, Illinois, Florida, and Iowa. I am sure there are a lot of other awesome programs that I don't know enough about to comment on.

 

[NUKE]

Is that because of a stigma that may be attached to you even if you apply for a non-OEC spot at an OEC affiliated school, or are you referring to an OEC "scholarship" spot itself?

I am just curious, because I have heard that you may be "black balled" by another program if you apply to an OEC program even for a non-OEC spot, and apply to another program as well. Anyone know if there is any truth to that?

I feel like I am strong candidate (94 part I, 3/75 class rank, research publications, externships/visits, etc.) and I go to an OEC affiliated school, but I am applying to like 25 schools. My dean told me that I should apply to my home school program or it may look bad, but then others have told me about the "black ball" rumor. Any info would help a lot.

Everywhere you go people will ask you where you are interviewing. Many people hate OEC with a passion. These people may not understand how you could even consider being in a program like that even if it is not an OEC spot. Im not sure if the schools get the information on what other programs you apply to but if they dont i wouldnt mention that interview. Better to avoid the situation, however, being from the dental school at an OEC location they are going to quiz you hard.

 

[gryffindor]

Everywhere you go people will ask you where you are interviewing. Many people hate OEC with a passion. These people may not understand how you could even consider being in a program like that even if it is not an OEC spot. Im not sure if the schools get the information on what other programs you apply to but if they dont i wouldnt mention that interview. Better to avoid the situation, however, being from the dental school at an OEC location they are going to quiz you hard.

Sheesh. I heard a lot of the OEC hate too at interviews, although I wasn't quizzed about it personally. But I didn't hear any solutions, just talk. IMO if you get a non-scholarship spot then what's the difference between you and any other ortho resident? The certificate at the end is the same. As an applicant you are wanting an acceptance which the OEC-hating resident already has - if it's your home school and they offer you a non-scholarship spot, why not take it? At least you wouldn't have to play the match game. However, don't piss off the residents - I hope there is a sensible one in each group to counteract the "Oh he applied to OEC, he so sucks" contingent.

Edit: For the original question, I've heard "name brand" programs include places like UNC, UW, UConn. I think it has to do with lots of research, lots of full time faculty, and money. I supposed if you have stellar stats, you'll score an invite to those places. For the rest of us, just apply everywhere and hold your breath for interviews. And there are no "bad" schools - any school that gives you a certificate is better than no spot in residency at all (minus the whole OEC debate). Just like dental school, you make the best of the situation if you feel like it.

 

[NUKE]

Sheesh. I heard a lot of the OEC hate too at interviews, although I wasn't quizzed about it personally. But I didn't hear any solutions, just talk. IMO if you get a non-scholarship spot then what's the difference between you and any other ortho resident? The certificate at the end is the same. As an applicant you are wanting an acceptance which the OEC-hating resident already has - if it's your home school and they offer you a non-scholarship spot, why not take it? At least you wouldn't have to play the match game. However, don't piss off the residents - I hope there is a sensible one in each group to counteract the "Oh he applied to OEC, he so sucks" contingent.

Edit: For the original question, I've heard "name brand" programs include places like UNC, UW, UConn. I think it has to do with lots of research, lots of full time faculty, and money. I supposed if you have stellar stats, you'll score an invite to those places. For the rest of us, just apply everywhere and hold your breath for interviews. And there are no "bad" schools - any school that gives you a certificate is better than no spot in residency at all (minus the whole OEC debate). Just like dental school, you make the best of the situation if you feel like it.

I could care less where this person goes. I just told him my opinion. And there is a HUGE difference between every Ortho school. Whether it is clinical or research based, 2 or 3 years, 3 residents or 45, Tweed or no wire bending at all, OEC or not, and yes some have great reps. and some dont. All of these things need to go into your decision. For instance, If you really love a two year program that uses HeadGear on every patient and 75% of the patients you see are early mixed dentition then you should do a GPR for a year rather than go to a 3 year program that has not seen anyone under 12 since ED Angle. You are an ortho at the same time yet your background is drastically different. Even though you have a Cert. this decision will greatly influence the way you practice the next 40years. find the style and atmosphere you like and go there even if it means a few sacrifices.

 

[DDSSlave]

I hope there is a sensible [resident] in each group to counteract the "Oh he applied to OEC, he so sucks" contingent.

The statistical probability of that (from my experience) is ZERO.

 

[molarama]

The statistical probability of that (from my experience) is ZERO.

won't say the resident sucks. i'm sure the resident is intelligent and hard working, but is supporting something that sucks. yes i will say oec sucks. their entire philosophy sucks. sucks for orthodontics, dentistry, health care in general. oec is setting a very dangerous precedent.
no time for a back and forth argument here, anyone interested can do a search here on SND and read plenty more.

 

[drdmddds]

for the people who have/about to apply: Which programs emphasize being prepared for private practice upon graduation?

 

[Budmano786]

I'm getting ready to apply...I'm trying to compile a similar list...I'm assuming that the schools with good clinical trainign are the ones that prepare you the best for private practice, but in all honesty...I'm pretty confident that 90% of the programs in the country will adequately prepare you for private practice

 

[NUKE]

any program in the nation will prepare you for private practice. However, when you get out the type of ortho you are doing as an associate or a partner may be the opposite as what you learned while in residency. If you know where you are going then you might consider a residency that is like your future boss/partner. If not then you may have to learn the ortho you will be doing in the first 6 months out of residency. If you know the basics and the principles behind the basics then the transition will be easy if not it may be difficult.

 

[NUKE]

When considering a program the ones that have the most diverse clinical background are the ones I think are best for private practice. If the only functional appliance a program uses is a Frankle and they never let anyone use a MARA, Twin Block, Herbst, etc. Then you may not realize what works well in your hands. you will not master any appliance in residency but knowing the limitations in your hands of each one will allow you to make decisons once you are out. plus if you are considering going in with a partner who only uses bioprogressive and that is what the staff knows and you know from your own experiences that you hate that style then that office may not be for you.

 

[gryffindor]

I could care less where this person goes. I just told him my opinion. And there is a HUGE difference between every Ortho school. Whether it is clinical or research based, 2 or 3 years, 3 residents or 45, Tweed or no wire bending at all, OEC or not, and yes some have great reps. and some dont. All of these things need to go into your decision. For instance, If you really love a two year program that uses HeadGear on every patient and 75% of the patients you see are early mixed dentition then you should do a GPR for a year rather than go to a 3 year program that has not seen anyone under 12 since ED Angle. You are an ortho at the same time yet your background is drastically different. Even though you have a Cert. this decision will greatly influence the way you practice the next 40years. find the style and atmosphere you like and go there even if it means a few sacrifices.

😕

What sacrifices are you talking about to get into a program? With the way match works, you really don't have too much choice in which program to attend - where you match on your list is where you go. I guess you could choose to not put one of your interviews on your match list to avoid any possibility of matching at that program, but then you run the risk of not matching at all. In my ideal world, I would have liked to attended an ortho program with an affiliated dental school and a strong research component. Where did I end up? A medical center program with no dental school and with a heavy clinical load, little research. No way am I rescinding my acceptance to try again. I'm just gonna make the best of it and if I still want the dental school with a strong ortho research program, I can be an attending at such a program later in my career.

So I am confused since in a later post, you talk about transitioning from residency to private practice isn't hard if you know the basics and the principles behind the basics.

I'm not a resident yet, but I can't see how going to ortho residency is going to be too much different from treating patients in dental school. I left dental school thinking I had such great knowledge of dentistry, only to get out in private practice and realize I had a lot to learn with so many different practices & philosophies & newer tecnhologies & procedures. I'm hoping to leave ortho residency knowing the basics and anything more I learn will be a bonus. Once you leave dental school and ortho residency, your education should not end if you want to give your patients the best. Just because you are most familiar with appliance Y and bracket system X from residency does not mean that you can't learn and adapt to newer & better systems & appliances that come to the market.

 

[Firm]

Now the schools that are affilated with OEC are top-notch in my opinion, solely because of money. They can hire the best professors, bring in the best lecturers, and build the best facilities. I would not worry one bit about taking a non-scholarship position at one of those schools. If you want to be an excellent clinician these schools prepare you to do that. If you want to be a researcher then go to Michigan, North Carolina or another school which focuses on that aspect.

 

[DDSSlave]

Being someone who is with OEC and trying to get out, I would not recommend signing up with OEC unless you have absolutely no chance at doing ortho any other way! What they tell you may sound good, but they don't deliver.

What don't they deliver? They provide you with an office for 7 yrs with a minimum salary, don't they? And how is it possible to get out of your contract?
Also, OEC doesn't necessarily have the best professors. Some of OEC's first choices rejected the extremely high $ job offers wanting nothing to do with OEC. Maybe a trivial point though.

 

[Firm]

What don't they deliver? They provide you with an office for 7 yrs with a minimum salary, don't they? And how is it possible to get out of your contract?
Also, OEC doesn't necessarily have the best professors. Some of OEC's first choices rejected the extremely high $ job offers wanting nothing to do with OEC. Maybe a trivial point though.

The office isn't ready when you get out of school. It's 7 years from whenever they get the office open. So if it takes them a year then it could be 8 years until you are done with them. They don't pay you a salary, they give you a loan. This loan must be paid back if you don't perform well enough. They don't tell you this when you first sign the contract. Then later on they give you a second contract after you have either quit your job to come to school, or choosen them over other ortho programs. Everybody thinks that your lock into the contract, including the resdients. You are never locked into a contract, a contract is simply an agreement between two parties. In any contract, both parties always have an option to get out.

 

[jpollei]

for the people who have/about to apply: Which programs emphasize being prepared for private practice upon graduation?

Though this may sound a bit surprising to some who view UNC as a heavy research ortho program, it is actually as much about clinical preparation for practice. You are in clinic 5 days a week (though only half day your 1st year), and have practice management courses 2nd and 3rd year. In fact, the six rising 3rd year residents are going to San Fran all of next week to look at every aspect of 10-12 practices, books, etc (and maybe catch a Giants game as well). So you get a fair bit of business management as well as clinical preparation.

Of course I can't speak for any other programs from first hand experience, and as budmano said, most places probably prepare you well for private practice.

 

[Budmano786]

Though this may sound a bit surprising to some who view UNC as a heavy research ortho program, it is actually as much about clinical preparation for practice. You are in clinic 5 days a week (though only half day your 1st year), and have practice management courses 2nd and 3rd year. In fact, the six rising 3rd year residents are going to San Fran all of next week to look at every aspect of 10-12 practices, books, etc (and maybe catch a Giants game as well). So you get a fair bit of business management as well as clinical preparation.

Of course I can't speak for any other programs from first hand experience, and as budmano said, most places probably prepare you well for private practice.

wow...practice management courses in an ortho residency...I wonder how common this is? I've taken practice management courses in dental school, but didn't expect them in a residency program

 

[DDSSlave]

Practice management courses are a lot more common in ortho programs than dental school. Plus there are management courses you can take at meetings such as the AAO and regional meetings. A number of programs also take part in weekend practice management meetings such as The Bottom Line course.

I'd agree with what others have said that most ortho programs will prepare you well for private practice. To find the right program for you ask lots of questions during the interview - clinical aspects, research opportunities, etc and be sure to talk a lot with the residents.