Research, a must?

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Empi

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  1. Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
My Microbiology professor starting going on and on about how important research is if you want to get into grad school or med school. She went on and on about how at least two years of undergrad research will set you up for grad school research wherein ou get a stipend and tuition paid for. I asked her how many hours of research and how many hours of school and how much time to study and she answered basically you get time for class and you spend most of the rest of your time doing research for some PhD.

OK, I'm reading between the lines, you are a slave at some big headed PhD's beck and call with barely enough time to study or write papers.

Also, does everyone assume everyone's 20 years old without a family.

If I do any research, I want to do clinical research (I'm looking at doing diabetes research in an urban clinic.) I do volunteer work in the hospital. I really don't see myself being someone's lab rat.

I have a feeling this prof. doesn't have a lot of broad knowledge and is simply applying her own experience to other's prospects.

Please tell me if I'm missing something.
 
My Microbiology professor starting going on and on about how important research is if you want to get into grad school or med school. She went on and on about how at least two years of undergrad research will set you up for grad school research wherein ou get a stipend and tuition paid for. I asked her how many hours of research and how many hours of school and how much time to study and she answered basically you get time for class and you spend most of the rest of your time doing research for some PhD.

OK, I'm reading between the lines, you are a slave at some big headed PhD's beck and call with barely enough time to study or write papers.

Also, does everyone assume everyone's 20 years old without a family.

If I do any research, I want to do clinical research (I'm looking at doing diabetes research in an urban clinic.) I do volunteer work in the hospital. I really don't see myself being someone's lab rat.

I have a feeling this prof. doesn't have a lot of broad knowledge and is simply applying her own experience to other's prospects.

Please tell me if I'm missing something.

Well, he is undoubtedly right if you want to go to grad school (PHD route), but I think he is overstating the need for medical school aspirants...
 
I agree, I don't plan on doing any research but I am not looking to go the MD/PhD route. If you plan on being an MD and not focus on research, then I don't think it matters. Do what you like to do, that is what matters most.
 
Well, he is undoubtedly right if you want to go to grad school (PHD route), but I think he is overstating the need for medical school aspirants...
Agree with this. OP, if you want to apply MD/PhD or MD/MS, then you will need research experience. Otherwise, you do not.
 
My Microbiology professor starting going on and on about how important research is if you want to get into grad school or med school. She went on and on about how at least two years of undergrad research will set you up for grad school research wherein ou get a stipend and tuition paid for. I asked her how many hours of research and how many hours of school and how much time to study and she answered basically you get time for class and you spend most of the rest of your time doing research for some PhD.

OK, I'm reading between the lines, you are a slave at some big headed PhD's beck and call with barely enough time to study or write papers.

Also, does everyone assume everyone's 20 years old without a family.

If I do any research, I want to do clinical research (I'm looking at doing diabetes research in an urban clinic.) I do volunteer work in the hospital. I really don't see myself being someone's lab rat.

I have a feeling this prof. doesn't have a lot of broad knowledge and is simply applying her own experience to other's prospects.

Please tell me if I'm missing something.

If your undergraduate major requires completion of an undergraduate honors research project in order to received your degree with honors, then you will need research if you want the honors. My undergraduate department (Chemistry) had this requirement if you wanted B.S in Chemistry with Honors (or High Honors).

If this is the case, you would have notified by the department chair as soon as you declared your major. You would have been set up with a mentor whose sole responsibility is to provide guidance for you in terms of getting your project done in a timely manner for graduation. You would also get credit for the research and you would be prepared to write a paper and present your research either at the departmental research day or at a national meeting. I presented at both as an undergraduate.

When I was selected for an Honors project, my mentor provided space in his lab (complete with desk and books) for me which became my study space away from school. I actually found that I could work on my research and study at the same time. Rather than me being at my PI's beckon call, he was at my beckon call and spent loads of time mentoring me and providing one-on-one instruction. When I finished the project, I had a solid knowledge of how to plan and execute a scholarly project (something that is invaluable to me today as a physician).

By entering medical school with High Honors in Chemistry coupled with my MCAT score, I qualified for a full-ride tuition scholarship. This made the amount of money that I needed to borrow for medical school far less than most of my classmates.

To answer your original question, research is not required for medical school but it is useful and may be something that pays back on many levels (not just application to medical school). If you anticipate going the MD/Ph.D route, then you definitely want to do an undergraduate research project. If you anticipate attending graduate school (I actually fell into this category), then you want to do an undergrad research project.
 
Its a nice ec to have but isnt as required as clinical exp for most schools.
 
OK, I'm reading between the lines, you are a slave at some big headed PhD's beck and call with barely enough time to study or write papers.

This is why you do research in something like public health or clinical research. Bench researchers, such as microbiologists, tend to be more of the mindset: "I slaved in a lab to get my degree, you should have to do the same." Also keep in mind that you really aren't someone's "slave" and not all bench researchers are dicks. You might be surprised to find that many of them will hand off (to an articulate and bright student) a small side project.

Also, does everyone assume everyone's 20 years old without a family.

Because most undergraduates are, yes, they tend to do this.

I have a feeling this prof. doesn't have a lot of broad knowledge and is simply applying her own experience to other's prospects.

Fair assessment. See my first comment
 
Its a nice ec to have but isnt as required as clinical exp for most schools.

Agreed. It is a strong EC for med school, but hardly a prereq, or something that will "set you up" for med school.
But if you plan to do research once in med school (and for a lot of specialties you may find it prudent), you cut through a lot of the learning curve if you already have some research in your past. If you've never researched before, you may find it unrealistic to learn your way around a lab and do something productive during eg the summer after first year. But if you can run gels or crunch stats with the best of them, you have a fighting chance of actually getting something CV worthy in a shorter time frame.
 
Well, he is undoubtedly right if you want to go to grad school (PHD route), but I think he is overstating the need for medical school aspirants...
She may also have been trying to be sly in her encouragement to apply to microbiology grad programs. 😉
 
I want to go into family practice.

A friend is doing research in a clinical setting (getting data within certain populations for diabetes study,) *that* is something I want to do.
 
I want to go into family practice

More power to you.....you certainly will not have my competing with you for it. In fact I think you're kind of nuts for settling like that.
 
More power to you.....you certainly will not have my competing with you for it. In fact I think you're kind of nuts for settling like that.

Some people want to see the same patients and watch them grow up. There's nothing wrong with that and I'd hardly consider it settling if that's what they want to do. If everyone became a plastic surgeon or dermatologist our health care system would be well and truly screwed.
 
True, but I can not justify through 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, 3 years of residency just to twiddle my thumbs all day. Personally, spending multiple visits over a year chasing someone's BP with beta-blockers doesn't seem worth the trouble. Like I said....more power to those who want to do it. It keeps the rest of us from being forced into it.
 
What I'm focused on is helping people to become and remain healthy. I want to integrate alternative approaches with conventional medicine.

That isn't settling
 
Define "alternative approaches".
 
Alternate approaches, everything from OMM to nutrition to herbs especially when antibiotics are not recommended. Example, herbal treatment of Otis Media when doctors are being told not to prescribe antibiotics. Poor patient is in pain and you aren't supposed to cure him or her.

Diet and exercise for all the many and various chronic diseases. Stress reduction techniques. Incorporate many modalities (sp) to approach the patient as a whole person rather the sum of the parts only focusing on the part that's giving someone grief.
 
Alternate approaches, everything from OMM to nutrition to herbs especially when antibiotics are not recommended. Example, herbal treatment of Otis Media when doctors are being told not to prescribe antibiotics. Poor patient is in pain and you aren't supposed to cure him or her.

Diet and exercise for all the many and various chronic diseases. Stress reduction techniques. Incorporate many modalities (sp) to approach the patient as a whole person rather the sum of the parts only focusing on the part that's giving someone grief.
You should be hearing from a mod shortly. Personal attacks are a TOS violation. 😉

BTW, just because I can't see why anyone would do something it doesn't make me a dick. It makes me human. I'm sure you can't understand why someone would choose a particular job. Example: a lot of people can't figure out why someone would run a septic tank business, but I know quite a couple of people who do. Personally I don't get it, but hey if it floats your boat more power to you.

Example, herbal treatment of Otis Media when doctors are being told not to prescribe antibiotics. Poor patient is in pain and you aren't supposed to cure him or her.

Come again? "Aren't supposed to cure them".....you apparently know nothing of evidence based medicine and that explains why you believe herbal treatments work. Nice.

Diet and exercise for all the many and various chronic diseases.

On this we agree, as for the herbal treatment of otitis media, I think you are buying into what amounts to snake oil. Just because you don't give someone antibiotics for an ear infection does not mean you aren't "curing" them. Most of the time, the docs I've worked with will tell the patient to take NSAIDs for the discomfort and let it run its course. That is better than eating some weird root from Banglapuranamanandnanghchan that does not stand up to scrutiny of any real sort and certainly better than needlessly breeding antibiotic resistance.
 
Well, as a PhD holder doing the pre-med thing these days, I'll address a few of your comments, if I may...


OK, I'm reading between the lines, you are a slave at some big headed PhD's beck and call with barely enough time to study or write papers.

Also, does everyone assume everyone's 20 years old without a family.

If I do any research, I want to do clinical research (I'm looking at doing diabetes research in an urban clinic.) I do volunteer work in the hospital. I really don't see myself being someone's lab rat.

I have a feeling this prof. doesn't have a lot of broad knowledge and is simply applying her own experience to other's prospects.

You're the bottom rung of the ladder in a lab, if you do research there. We've all been there, and it's not that you're getting treated as a dogsbody (if someone is rude to you, that's quite inappropriate), but you have a limited skillset, and so the only things that you are qualified to do are basic things like running gels/simple programming, etc. A good supervisor will give you simple projects and slowly expand your skills and responsibilities.

You can't just jump in, decide on a project and run with it, without help. Right now, you don't have research skills, your practical skills are not as advanced as your supervisor's, and you have no sense of the field in which you are working. I'm not trying to be harsh, but that's just the way things are. We can let you run around and waste resources for a summer/semester/year, doing something obvious that has been done a hundred times and isn't in any way inventive, or we can teach you.

Research also takes a lot of time and a lot of effort. You won't get papers and presentations from a few weeks of work - so you'll have to be inconvenienced and put in the hours, if you want something out of the experience. In most cases, if you can do something in a month, as a more experienced person who knows how things work, I ought to be able to do it in a day or two. If it was worthy of publication and took two days of work, I would have done it already...

Clinical research might be ideal for you... But you'll still lack the skills and appreciation for the subject area that your supervisor will have. You will probably start by doing data entry or surveying patients. Just remember that it will take time to gain skills and responsibility.

Your professor probably doesn't know what is required for medical school, but has a good idea about grad school requirements. You don't need to have research experience for an MD program, but quite a lot of people do, and it does help. Research teaches you to read critically and think critically - the MCAT verbal reasoning section attempts to assess this, to a limited extent. As a doctor, you'll be reading a lot of papers, articles, journals and books, quite literally until the day you retire, so these are valuable skills. These are things that you don't have right now, and that's why you can't be a researcher with a lot of responsibilities yet, but we can teach you, and you and your patients will benefit from it in the years to come.

Alternate approaches, everything from OMM to nutrition to herbs especially when antibiotics are not recommended. Example, herbal treatment of Otis Media when doctors are being told not to prescribe antibiotics. Poor patient is in pain and you aren't supposed to cure him or her.

Diet and exercise for all the many and various chronic diseases. Stress reduction techniques. Incorporate many modalities (sp) to approach the patient as a whole person rather the sum of the parts only focusing on the part that's giving someone grief.

http://www.nhsdirect.nhs.uk/articles/article.aspx?articleId=273&sectionId=11

Sometimes anti-biotics are not recommended for good reason - Otitis media often returns periodically, and while it is painful and annoying, it usually resolves itself in around three days. As a researcher, you would have read some of the studies that indicate that anti-biotics seem not to make a difference in the outcomes or recovery rates in most cases. As a responsible physician, you should appreciate the issues with over-prescription of anti-biotics in the population as a whole and the risks involved with prescribing in this manner. The patient may be in pain, but they can't be cured - it will resolve of its own accord... As the guidelines suggest, give them ibuprofen/etc. and antihistamines/decongestants to relieve symptoms, and they'll be better in a few days. If not, investigate more vigorous responses.

Doctors don't try and leave their patients in pain - that's the last thing that they want; but they do value making sure that they do the best thing for those patients.

Diet and exercise are beneficial to many patients, and accepted parts of many treatment plans, where research indicates...

As for the rest, it depends what type of doctor you want to be. It seems to me that at the moment, you are on the verge of favouring giving treatment to patients without any proven benefit to their wellbeing. Homeopathic pills, aromatherapy and all of that. The nature of many aspects of medicine, is that intervention often has side-effects, as does action or inaction, depending on the circumstances. As a physician, you have a responsibility to 'First: Do no harm". You should be offering treatment that in your judgement has a reasonable probability of improving their health, because if it doesn't, you are potentially going to make them worse off.

Many holistic treatments lack the level of investigation that conventional treatments require to prove their validity. Homeopathic therapy is a particularly good example of this. Drug companies spend millions of dollars testing drugs to see if they have dangerous side effects, before patients can be given them (even then, sometimes unusual effects occur rarely). I'm not saying that perhaps holistic therapies don't make a difference, but until we have research:
a) We don't have great proof that they work
b) We don't know if they will do more harm than good
c) We don't know if they work better than the conventional solution

But seriously... If a simple, minimally processed herb was able to eradicate conditions X, Y and Z, we'd be using it by the bucketload. That's exactly what happened with Aspirin, after all. But no herbs out there seem to be magically anti-biotic (and trust me... we need more types of anti-biotics to treat resistant strains of nasties!), nor do they cure the common cold, nor do they enlarge your breasts or 'manhood' as the spam proclaims. If they did, everyone would be talking about it.

The reason that research skills are prized for clinical training, is that they help you choose effective and safe care for your patients. If you want to offer treatments to your patients without proof that they are safe and work properly, you don't need to become a doctor. There are plenty of people in the world who sell and advise on unproven techniques, all without qualifications that take more than half a decade and $150,000 of debt.

If you want to be serious about taking care of your patients and making responsible and informed decisions, however, go to medical school and nuture your critical thinking skills for all they are worth, including through research experience, even if you never do research in your eventual workplace.

Perhaps also consider Osteopathic careers paths; they have a subtly different focus to Allopathic education, and if you want to follow a scientific path but treat in a different manner, that might suit you.
 
I used the example I did because previously coventional treaments are now being questioned.

Some herbal approaches do show some solid benefits while others have no clinical support. I don't think you can throw all alternative approaches in the same bucket and dismiss al of them. If I were to practice both alternative and conventional medicine, I would be honest and upfont with my patiets. I would tell them how much evidence is there (or not there,) to support an alternative therapy.

Obviously, I don't have enough background knowledge to prescribe either allopathic medicine or an herbal alternative, I'm just an undergrad at this point. I would, however, be open to a broader spectrum of approaches that are not limited to conventional allopathic medicine.

I never said, nor did I intend to suggest doctors don't care if their patients are in pain. I used the example of Otitis Media as an example because, in the past, antibiotics were prescribed for otis media and a patient (or parent!) could expect relief in a day or so. Because of antibiotic resistance and questionable outcomes, antibiotics are not prescribed for otitis media the way they were in the past. The poor patien is in pain and the doctor has nothing more than an ibopropin or tylenol to suggest. If you had some OMM or an herbal therapy to offer as an alternative to nothing, but with the understanding that there really *isn't* enough solid research to back up the treatment, many patients would want to try the herbal or OMM approach.

I may well be able to do some research, but my interests lie in the clinical setting. I'm not sure about the details, but I know a couple of students who are collecting patient data for a diabetes study. That is something that I would enjoy doing instead of working in a lab (bless those of you who *do*, but it might drive me crazy.)
 
Folks,

Please lay off with the personal attacks. It's fine to disagree if you can discuss your opinions civilly.

I apologise, Q... I wasn't intending to offend; merely to be assertive.

Empi, if I offended, I'm very sorry. I was wishing to challenge you to pursue some degree of research, either clinically or lab-based, because it can be valuable to the care you will eventually provide.

As for herbs, etc., alternative medicine will be a long debate in healthcare in the future, and one that should be approached with caution.

While you are investigating your options, you might like to read Orac's blog on a regular basis:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

It has a lot of discussion of the more out-there applications of alternative medicine, the problems, legality and efficacy.
 
...While you are investigating your options, you might like to read Orac's blog on a regular basis:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/...
I'll second Orac's blog. Very funny, and very good.

And now, for something completely different.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H6DSoqZz_s&mode=related&search=[/YOUTUBE]
 
Hey, guys, I really don't get offended that easily.

A fair discussion/debate is welcome.

Perhaps the term, "alternative," is a bit misleading. I think there's a big difference between suggesting chicken soup for a cold and treating cancer with homeopathics.

Um, er, I'm of the chicken soup for a cold sort, if I ever get to be a physician, the cancer patient is going straight to an Oncologist (sp?)
 
Perhaps the term, "alternative," is a bit misleading. I think there's a big difference between suggesting chicken soup for a cold and treating cancer with homeopathics.

Actually the problem for most isn't with the term "alternative", but the phrase "alternative medicine" (and your notion of combining alternatives with conventional medicine), because a physician using such alternatives implies to patients a level of research and efficacy that many of the herbal products simply do not have. In medicine, if a mode of treatment has not been proven safe or effective, the best approach is often going to be not to give it, even if it means you are able to offer a patient nothing. Which is fine -- doing nothing can be the best option in many many cases. There are a ton of ailments for which there is no good cure, in which case, you don't make one up, you just give supportive care. The key to being a good doctor is not to simply throw drugs or herbs at a problem, but to help a patient deal with instances where there simply is no useful remedy.
 
There are medical researchers who are studying alternative treatments, Empi. If you're interested in doing this kind of work, I'm sure you could run enough clinical trials to keep you busy for several lifetimes. One of the alternative treatments that I think is among the better substantiated is acupuncture for treating pain. I don't buy the Chinese explanation for why it works, but several trials seem to suggest that it does work for whatever reason, at least for some patients. In the end, it probably can't hurt a patient to use acupuncture as an adjunct to Western medicine (assuming the needles are sterile!), so I don't see much reason not to give it a try. Even if it's just a placebo effect, so what? Placeboes are powerful medicine. If we could ever truly understand the mechanism of the placebo effect, we would understand a great deal about the human mind.

L2D has a good point about herbs. People have this idea that "natural" means "safe." Actually, however, many of the most dangerous and lethal organic substances known to man (ricin, botulinum toxin, tetrodotoxin) are natural products. The other issue with herbs and similar formulations is that the FDA does not monitor them. You may think you're taking tablets with 100 mg of some herb in it, but there is no one checking to be sure that you really are getting all that you paid for. When people have done these types of chemical analyses, there are often wide variations in the amount of herb from bottle to bottle and even from pill to pill.
 
There are medical researchers who are studying alternative treatments, Empi. If you're interested in doing this kind of work, I'm sure you could run enough clinical trials to keep you busy for several lifetimes. One of the alternative treatments that I think is among the better substantiated is acupuncture for treating pain. I don't buy the Chinese explanation for why it works, but several trials seem to suggest that it does work for whatever reason, at least for some patients. In the end, it probably can't hurt a patient to use acupuncture as an adjunct to Western medicine (assuming the needles are sterile!), so I don't see much reason not to give it a try. Even if it's just a placebo effect, so what? Placeboes are powerful medicine. If we could ever truly understand the mechanism of the placebo effect, we would understand a great deal about the human mind.

To build on your point, there is a huge difference between studying an alternative medicine and administering care with it. The patients in a study know that it is experimental, that they may be getting placebos, and their expectations are tempered. There is nothing wrong with studying whether something is effective after appropriate safety trials have been conducted, but bear in mind that once it has been demonstrated sound, it is no longer really alternative, it is, by definition, conventional. The problem with alternative is it hasn't made this essential step, from conceptual to proven, and as such, the former is bad medicine if not part of a carefully monitored study.
Acupuncture is probably close to reaching that cross-over point to conventional -- there have been more than a few studies pointing to its efficacy for certain pain management issues.
 
To build on your point, there is a huge difference between studying an alternative medicine and administering care with it. The patients in a study know that it is experimental, that they may be getting placebos, and their expectations are tempered. There is nothing wrong with studying whether something is effective after appropriate safety trials have been conducted, but bear in mind that once it has been demonstrated sound, it is no longer really alternative, it is, by definition, conventional. The problem with alternative is it hasn't made this essential step, from conceptual to proven, and as such, the former is bad medicine if not part of a carefully monitored study.

This makes sense. One of the projects my lab is working on is isolation and administration of phytoSERMs from soy, and we are starting a clinical trial on it soon. I'm sure once it's isolated and they develop a therapeutic it will be marketed like any other drug.
 
Does anyone here listen to 157 on XM?

There was a little piece on how some biofeedback relaxation techniques are being studied and show very strong results in clinical studies. BP being reduced significantly.

I think we're actually seeing the beginning of a lot more research that will eventually support some alternative approaches and debunk others.
 
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