Research abstract--weird authorship listing--advice needed

[ChessMaster3000]

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So I am working with a couple residents on a research project that was recently submitted to a conference. As a medical student, of course, we have little say in the matter of where we get placed on other people's projects. However, after finally getting a hold of a copy of the submitted abstract, I realized that I was not the third author, which is what I thought I would be, but in fact the 4th author. The reason for this was that the PI was listed as the SECOND author, which I'm pretty sure is just not how it's done. In fact I was so confused by this because I am not sure why a PI would have approved an abstract for submission if they had seen themselves as the 2nd author. I would have been totally happy with 3rd author, even though I felt I did quite a bit of the work on this project, but the 4th author thing just doesn't make sense, especially considering when someone reads this on a CV or in pubmed they'll surely assume that the 2nd author was a non-PI contributor and that I was truly a 4th author.

I'm not sure what to do about this. I dont care about the authorship for the abstract (it's a done deal anyway), but for the future manuscript I would love it if I could get back to being 3rd author, which only makes sense given the general protocol for authorship. Any thoughts about how I can go about bringing this up? Should I email the resident on the project? The PI directly ? (this PI is not really someone I have worked with at all). I dont want to come off as unappreciative of being included on the project/abstract, and I'm not trying to burn bridges obviously, but this simply doesn't make sense the way it is right now.

 

[cs24]

Honestly, in my humble and unexperienced position (as far as how research effects residency apps), the difference between 3rd and 4th author seems very slim and almost not worth bringing up.

I had a paper where I expected to be 2nd author and got bumped to fifth for various reasons. I could have very reasonably argued that I should have been at least fourth, but it's splitting hairs at that point, especially when I plan on having many other publications where I'm first or second author.

 

[mimelim]

There is no difference between 3rd and 4th author.

The rules regarding the order of authorship are inconsistent and depends on the field you are working in. The typical format with the PI at the end is usually followed in Biology, but there is no hard and fast rules. Many journals will have the PI listed first or even have the names in alphabetical order (some Physics journals).

 

[operaman]

Students have quite a bit of say actually, but only if you discuss it ahead of time. I've never started or joined a project without first discussing plans for authorship with the PI. It flows naturally out of the conversation about expectations and your role in the project.

As to your current situation, if you aren't doing anything else for the project, then leave it alone and let authorship fall where it may -- no real difference between 3rd and 7th author much less 3rd and 4th. If you are going to be writing the manuscript or writing parts of it, then you need to make an apt to discuss planned authorship order for submission.

 

[starstarie]

I have a related question. I haven't directly discussed this with my PI, but I am wondering what I can expect as far a authorship for my clinical project. She came up with the idea and design of the study (specifically for me), but I have basically carried out most of the work of the study, including writing the manuscript (she revised it). We are working with a biostats person as well as have a co-author, who we consulted on one issue. Since I did the majority of the work, can I expect to be the first author?

Sorry OP to steal your thunder!

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I have a related question. I haven't directly discussed this with my PI, but I am wondering what I can expect as far a authorship for my clinical project. She came up with the idea and design of the study (specifically for me), but I have basically carried out most of the work of the study, including writing the manuscript (she revised it). We are working with a biostats person as well as have a co-author, who we consulted on one issue. Since I did the majority of the work, can I expect to be the first author?

Sorry OP to steal your thunder!

From what you are describing it sounds like you should be.

But the big lesson here is - talk about authorship EARLY!!

I don't have any research projects where I don't know exactly where I stand on authorship before we get started. I am fortunate however to have mentors who are accomplished enough not to "need" more first authored papers at this point in their careers.

 

[ChessMaster3000]

Honestly, in my humble and unexperienced position (as far as how research effects residency apps), the difference between 3rd and 4th author seems very slim and almost not worth bringing up.

I had a paper where I expected to be 2nd author and got bumped to fifth for various reasons. I could have very reasonably argued that I should have been at least fourth, but it's splitting hairs at that point, especially when I plan on having many other publications where I'm first or second author.

Thanks for everyone's input. I definitely agree with you on the effect of this on my residency application (zero). Actually, I was looking ahead to fellowship (medicine subspecialty) when thinking about this. If I am lucky enough to have several publications, 3rd vs 4th on this one wont mean anything, but at the same time Im all about optimization of chances (as we all are on SDN, probably). Is bringing this up with the PI and resident, for the manuscript itself, worth the advantage of improving your authorship by one spot?

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Thanks for everyone's input. I definitely agree with you on the effect of this on my residency application (zero). Actually, I was looking ahead to fellowship (medicine subspecialty) when thinking about this. If I am lucky enough to have several publications, 3rd vs 4th on this one wont mean anything, but at the same time Im all about optimization of chances (as we all are on SDN, probably). Is bringing this up with the PI and resident, for the manuscript itself, worth the advantage of improving your authorship by one spot?

No. If this was a question of you feeling slighted out of a first authorship that would be one thing, but I can't see a situation where anyone would ever care about 3rd vs 4 th authorship.

 

[starstarie]

From what you are describing it sounds like you should be.

But the big lesson here is - talk about authorship EARLY!!

I don't have any research projects where I don't know exactly where I stand on authorship before we get started. I am fortunate however to have mentors who are accomplished enough not to "need" more first authored papers at this point in their careers.

Yeah, I recognize I should have been more direct in the beginning. It's really intimidating and kinda awkward to talk about. I was kinda proud of myself that I even implied that I was looking for a publication at the first meeting. Do you have any suggestions on the best way to approach this kind of conversation?

From the way I read my PI she seems generous and helpful with these kinds of things, but I do really need to talk to her about it

 

[ChessMaster3000]

Yeah, I recognize I should have been more direct in the beginning. It's really intimidating and kinda awkward to talk about. I was kinda proud of myself that I even implied that I was looking for a publication at the first meeting. Do you have any suggestions on the best way to approach this kind of conversation?

From the way I read my PI she seems generous and helpful with these kinds of things, but I do really need to talk to her about it

Judging by my original post you'd think I'd be the absolute wrong person to ask, and I wouldn't blame you. But prior to this particular project I have had conversations with PIs about authorship and it's honestly pretty straightforward. If it's not your project (ie, you definitely won't be first author), I would start it by saying, I realize this is not primarily my project, so I was hoping to clarify what level of authorship I might be able to expect given my relative contribution to this project.

If it's clearly your project, it should be a given, but you can always say, one of my goals in completing a project like this would be to get a first author publication. Is that something that you think is reasonable?

Every PI has been in the position before of trying to gauge their potential authorship. They all know it's a big deal. I was fortunate that one of my PIs said after a long discussion about a potential project: "Just to be clear--you put in the time, you put in the work, you're first author." Made it easy

 

[operaman]

Remember: everyone knows that authorship and publication is academic currency and important for all involved. PIs expect to have these conversations with students, post-docs, colleagues, etc. You are not entering uncharted waters by starting this kind of conversation.

I find it flows pretty naturally out of any early conversation about the project. Questions like "who else will be working on this project with us?" and, if needed, "what will their role be?" Definitely ask something like "what do you expect my role/contribution will/should be?" Once you have this info, then an open ended question like "what are you thinking about authorship for this project once we get to the point of submitting an abstract or manuscript?" This should pretty much get the ball rolling. If your expected contribution is writing the manuscript and doing the bulk of the work, then you should definitely ask to be first author. If the PI has someone else/themselves in mind, you may decline to work on that project and ask if there is another project where you could take more ownership and gain experience in taking a project from A to Z. Or, you may find that the field or journal or type of article you're doing has slightly different authorship conventions. Maybe it's a big review article and the senior author's name will be going first; clarify this up front and then decide if you want to be part of it.

Remember, nobody is stupid and everyone knows that students and young scientists want/need first author pubs for career advancement.