Research during residency

[Lothric]

Yo,

Let's get one thing clear: Traditional/heavy/basic research will be impossible to perform during the residency hours exceeding 70+/week.

However, are smaller case-reports/studies and things like that enough to land a fellowship after the residency? I'm thinking about cardiology, anesthesia, other IM subspecialties...

I think I've read somewhere here that 5-10 hours/week will be enough (doing this kind of research, that is). But I can't find that thread anymore; could anyone confirm this?

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[Winged Scapula]

FYI: anesthesia is not an IM subspecialty.

 

[bashwell]

Yo,

Let's get one thing clear: Traditional/heavy/basic research will be impossible to perform during the residency hours exceeding 70+/week.

However, are smaller case-reports/studies and things like that enough to land a fellowship after the residency? I'm thinking about cardiology, anesthesia, other IM subspecialties...

I think I've read somewhere here that 5-10 hours/week will be enough (doing this kind of research, that is). But I can't find that thread anymore; could anyone confirm this?

1) How much time you need to devote for research depends in large part on how much experience you have with doing research.

2) It also depends on what type of research you're attempting to do. Retrospective research with all the data already collected and right there in front of you to analyze is probably going to be easier than developing your own RCT etc. Obviously case reports, poster presentations, and so on are easier to do.

3) It also depends what journal or conference you're attempting to publish or present at. It can take a solid year (if not more) to publish a good paper in a good journal for example.

4) How much case reports matter depends on the IM subspecialty you're applying to AND the fellowship program you're applying to. For example, if you want cardiology at MGH, then you're going to have to do a lot more than just a case report.

5) Fellowships in anesthesia don't usually have as research heavy requirements, but again that depends on which fellowship you're applying to and which fellowship program you're applying to.

 

[Lothric]

1) How much time you need to devote for research depends in large part on how much experience you have with doing research.

2) It also depends on what type of research you're attempting to do. Retrospective research with all the data already collected and right there in front of you to analyze is probably going to be easier than developing your own RCT etc. Obviously case reports, poster presentations, and so on are easier to do.

3) It also depends what journal or conference you're attempting to publish or present at. It can take a solid year (if not more) to publish a good paper in a good journal for example.

4) How much case reports matter depends on the IM subspecialty you're applying to AND the fellowship program you're applying to. For example, if you want cardiology at MGH, then you're going to have to do a lot more than just a case report.

5) Fellowships in anesthesia don't usually have as research heavy requirements, but again that depends on which fellowship you're applying to and which fellowship program you're applying to.

Hmm, the thought has always been smaller research such as case reports. These don't end up being published - is that required or is "shown interest" by doing simple research enough for fellowships for IM subspecialties and anesthesia? Once again, it depends on what program but in general...?

Obviously one can after residency devote years for research before applying to top fellowships. But my plan is not to do so. I'm just wondering what my chances are of landing a fellowship in cardiology, other IM subspecialities and anesthesia in at least a mediocre program if I just do simple 5-10 h/week research during residency. It's more of a practical question - if this kind of research will not bring me anywhere to any fellowship, then there is no point in doing it either.

Edit: Note that this is just for fellowship and not residency programs. Doing research here in Sweden will be no problem, so the residency shouldn't be a major issue.

 

[bashwell]

Hmm, the thought has always been smaller research such as case reports. These don't end up being published - is that required or is "shown interest" by doing simple research enough for fellowships for IM subspecialties and anesthesia? Once again, it depends on what program but in general...?

Obviously one can after residency devote years for research before applying to top fellowships. But my plan is not to do so. I'm just wondering what my chances are of landing a fellowship in cardiology, other IM subspecialities and anesthesia in at least a mediocre program if I just do simple 5-10 h/week research during residency. It's more of a practical question - if this kind of research will not bring me anywhere to any fellowship, then there is no point in doing it either.

In general, yes, you do need some good research to match into a cardiology fellowship. Case reports probably won't be sufficient. Aim for a published paper. It doesn't have to be in a top journal, per se, although that would help. If you weren't an IMG, then perhaps you could get away with case reports and posters, but no papers, but since fellowship programs consider visa status, since you're an IMG (Sweden), then you should aim for one paper (if not more). Cardiology has historically been the second most competitive subspecialty to match into after gastroenterology in the United States.

All that said, as an IMG, I'd worry more about crushing Step 1 and Step 2CK/CS and getting into as good an IM program as you can, because where you do your IM residency matters a lot for fellowship, especially a competitive fellowship like cardiology.

 

[kchan99]

I did quite a bit of research during residency. Most of it was retrospective, but I was still able to publish, including one first author paper. It would be helpful if your program would allow a couple months of research rotations.

 

[Lothric]

In general, yes, you do need some good research to match into a cardiology fellowship. Case reports probably won't be sufficient. Aim for a published paper. It doesn't have to be in a top journal, per se, although that would help. If you weren't an IMG, then perhaps you could get away with case reports and posters, but no papers, but since fellowship programs consider visa status, since you're an IMG (Sweden), then you should aim for one paper (if not more). Cardiology has historically been the second most competitive subspecialty to match into after gastroenterology in the United States.

All that said, as an IMG, I'd worry more about crushing Step 1 and Step 2CK/CS and getting into as good an IM program as you can, because where you do your IM residency matters a lot for fellowship, especially a competitive fellowship like cardiology.

Ah, but does the research have to be done during residency? During our time here in medical school (Sweden) we have a lot of opportunities to do research. I think I've read somewhere that the research has to be done during residency in order to count or something like that...

My friend in Karolinska (almost done with med school) got 262 on his step 1. Some years ago, somebody here got 274 ^^. I'm not doing step 1 until I'm confident of atleast 260+.

Also, regarding residency program, does that mean that if I happen to land on a topprogram I can avoid doing research completely? And vice versa - if I land in a mediocre program, I have to do research?

I did quite a bit of research during residency. Most of it was retrospective, but I was still able to publish, including one first author paper. It would be helpful if your program would allow a couple months of research rotations.

Were you able to publish without the months devoted to research? And, when you did research during the normal workhours residency is known for (65-80 hours/week), was 5-10 h/week enough for those types of studies?

 

[bashwell]

Ah, but does the research have to be done during residency? During our time here in medical school (Sweden) we have a lot of opportunities to do research. I think I've read somewhere that the research has to be done during residency in order to count or something like that...

My friend in Karolinska (almost done with med school) got 262 on his step 1. Some years ago, somebody here got 274 ^^. I'm not doing step 1 until I'm confident of atleast 260+.

You can do research now during med school. It doesn't have to be done during residency. But research during residency would arguably look better for you since it's more recent research and thus shows more recent interest in the field, and since your research would hopefully be of higher quality during residency than during med school.

Also, regarding residency program, does that mean that if I happen to land on a topprogram I can avoid doing research completely? And vice versa - if I land in a mediocre program, I have to do research?

1) If you can get into MGH or Hopkins for IM, but are happy to go to a lower ranked fellowship program for cardiology, then you probably could get away with minimal research.

2) If you get into a mediocre program, then you'll definitely need research to have a chance at cardiology.

3) Your rate limiting factor is going to be your status as an IMG in need of a visa. The residency and also fellowship program will have to think you're worth investing their time and resources in trying to obtain a visa for you.

A place like MGH or Hopkins could do it, but you'd have to be a very good applicant (e.g., the IMGs they tend to take are those who have already become attendings in their nation, have a PhD, etc.).

IM programs in the middle may or may not take a risk on an IMG because if the visa process doesn't go through, or if the visa gets canceled at the last minute as sometimes happens, then the program is down one resident, which makes it harder on everyone else since now the workload is split between less residents.

The lowest ranked IM programs often do fill with a significant number of IMGs, and thus have experience with applying for visas for their residents, but then you almost certainly will need to publish something if you want cardiology.

 

[BoardingDoc]

Hmm, the thought has always been smaller research such as case reports. These don't end up being published - is that required or is "shown interest" by doing simple research enough for fellowships for IM subspecialties and anesthesia? Once again, it depends on what program but in general...?

Obviously one can after residency devote years for research before applying to top fellowships. But my plan is not to do so. I'm just wondering what my chances are of landing a fellowship in cardiology, other IM subspecialities and anesthesia in at least a mediocre program if I just do simple 5-10 h/week research during residency. It's more of a practical question - if this kind of research will not bring me anywhere to any fellowship, then there is no point in doing it either.

Edit: Note that this is just for fellowship and not residency programs. Doing research here in Sweden will be no problem, so the residency shouldn't be a major issue.

You keep talking about doing research during residency so you can land a spot in anesthesia.... that isn't a thing. You apply to anesthesia when you're a medical student, not a resident. Anesthesia IS a residency, not a fellowship.

 

[Lothric]

You keep talking about doing research during residency so you can land a spot in anesthesia.... that isn't a thing. You apply to anesthesia when you're a medical student, not a resident. Anesthesia IS a residency, not a fellowship.

My bad - I meant research in order to guarantee myself a fellowship somewhere.

So all in all - a little bit of time devoted to research during residency will fulfill the function of yielding a fellowship after the anesthesia and IM residency in most schools. However, to get into higher ranked schools, one "must" devote full time research after residency (especially as an IMG).

Now, the research possibilities here in Karolinska are enormous and I will take advantage of those to guarantee myself a good residency program (this way, the chances of getting into a fellowship are even greater). I just have to decide within what field (anesthesia or cardiology), but from what I've understood any research is always appreciated (so even if I'd change my mind, it was never a waste of time).

 

[kchan99]

Were you able to publish without the months devoted to research? And, when you did research during the normal workhours residency is known for (65-80 hours/week), was 5-10 h/week enough for those types of studies?

I never tracked my research hours. I squeezed in research whenever I could. If I was on hospital service, I did little research. The research months were quite helpful because I had collaborators at another institution in town, but having extremely light rotations that are no more than 20-30 hours per week would helpful. A lot of what can done depends on your work habits, motivation, etc. In my experience, I can get more done if I'm passionate about the project.

 

[bashwell]

My bad - I meant research in order to guarantee myself a fellowship somewhere.

So all in all - a little bit of time devoted to research during residency will fulfill the function of yielding a fellowship after the anesthesia and IM residency in most schools. However, to get into higher ranked schools, one "must" devote full time research after residency (especially as an IMG).

Now, the research possibilities here in Karolinska are enormous and I will take advantage of those to guarantee myself a good residency program (this way, the chances of getting into a fellowship are even greater). I just have to decide within what field (anesthesia or cardiology), but from what I've understood any research is always appreciated (so even if I'd change my mind, it was never a waste of time).

Anesthesia has a fellowship in cardiac anesthesia as well.

But really, you should determine what base specialty you like better -- anesthesia or IM -- in case you can't match into a fellowship which is always possible.

 

[Lothric]

Anesthesia has a fellowship in cardiac anesthesia as well.

But really, you should determine what base specialty you like better -- anesthesia or IM -- in case you can't match into a fellowship which is always possible.

Good point. At this point I think I'm leaving anesthesia behind and change gear, as we like to say in Swedish, and aim for a cardiology fellowship after IM.

 

[rokshana]

My bad - I meant research in order to guarantee myself a fellowship somewhere.

So all in all - a little bit of time devoted to research during residency will fulfill the function of yielding a fellowship after the anesthesia and IM residency in most schools. However, to get into higher ranked schools, one "must" devote full time research after residency (especially as an IMG).

Now, the research possibilities here in Karolinska are enormous and I will take advantage of those to guarantee myself a good residency program (this way, the chances of getting into a fellowship are even greater). I just have to decide within what field (anesthesia or cardiology), but from what I've understood any research is always appreciated (so even if I'd change my mind, it was never a waste of time).

there is NO guarantee that any of that WILL get you a residency in either IM or anesthesia, much less a fellowship...as an FMG it can help improve your application...you really need to gather a bit more information about the process of GME in the US and what an FMG needs to do to make their application the strongest one possible.

 

[QueenJames]

Sorry for the bump but...

Is research absolutely required to enter a fellowship after IM such as Cardio?

What if you enjoy doing more volunteer activities with organizations based around heart health and such?

Are you stuck in IM if you absolutely DREAD doing research?

 

[rokshana]

Sorry for the bump but...

Is research absolutely required to enter a fellowship after IM such as Cardio?

What if you enjoy doing more volunteer activities with organizations based around heart health and such?

Are you stuck in IM if you absolutely DREAD doing research?

you will have to figure out which you hate more...a few years or research or many years in IM...and then pick the one you hate the least.

 

[QueenJames]

you will have to figure out which you hate more...a few years or research or many years in IM...and then pick the one you hate the least.

🙁