research lab woes continued

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alhs525

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I already posted a thread about this, but I thought I'd give my new research lab some time before I decide to jump ship. Several weeks later and I'm still conflicted.

Pros of the lab:
I get my own independent project. I am familiar with this particular type of research so I can get results fairly quickly, and won't need to undergo much training. Because I'm applying MD/PhD, and I'm also a junior now... (my previous lab disbanded, which is why I need to find a new one) it's important that I have enough autonomy in the lab so that I can have culminating results rather than having to spend a lot of time learning new techniques and being trained.

Cons:
---Working with rude graduate student (though recently he has gotten a little better_
---PI is super strict. At first impression I thought she was really chill, but that is far from the case.
---PI wants 20-25 hours of work per week, and also wants me to keep weekends free for work. This is in addition to our 3 hour + lab meetings each week
---PI does these extremely thorough weekly notebook checks, even for the grad students and postdocs, which I find just plain weird.
---I've also heard that she doesn't easily give out As for Independent Research credit (which I need to enroll in for graduation requirements) and obviously I don't want research to bring my GPA down. ---As I've gotten to talking to the couple of other undergrads in the lab, I realized that they all want to quit. And the previous undergrads all quit after one semester or two.
---The main focus of the lab is different from my own personal interests... which I didn't realize until sitting through a few group meetings, since the initial talk I had with the PI about their work was kind of misleading. I'm more interested in biological applications, and the graduate student and I are the sole people working on this aspect. Everyone else is working on some... physical chemical stuff I don't understand/care for. So during the 3+ hour group meetings each week, it's pretty much a waste of my time because none of it is relevant to me. I feel that I might not have much to learn if the grad student were my own source of mentorship in this lab (and he's not a good mentor to being with)
^^^^^ I didn't know 99% of the above until after I had been in the lab for a couple weeks.

There is this one other lab that I am really interested in, and the PI is a really chill, young, dude who recently won a bunch of grants and funds. I corresponded with him during the summer, and he complimented me on my previous experience and said that his lab is still in the process of being set up (it's fairly new) and that he "might have a spot for me in the spring." The work he does is slightly different than what I've been trained in, so I know that there will be a period of time where I'm not doing anything productive/generating results... so I'm not sure if I should stick with my current lab for the next 2 years, or hold off until next semester to see if the "chill PI" has space for me, or just continue searching for another lab.

Help...!!!!! What do I do?!

Another thing... if I do leave this lab, since it's only been a month or so, I don't have to put it on my applications do I?
 
Take it. Not everyone can have a super chill lab/PI.
 
There is something to be said about known evils (knowing your enemy): you know exactly what you're in for. If you think you can handle what is in the first lab, I would take it. This is a sensitive time for you, and the unexpected is the worst thing for you right now. As chill as that guy is, you don't know how he is (just like the first PI!).

If you really like the second over the first, and will have no woe or regret over walking away when things seem to be bad, I'd go for the second. But not many people can walk away, so that's the concern here, IMO.

Case in point, I've walked away from an NSF grant because they did not believe that elementary school/high school math can be taught by anyone other than someone who did a Master's in that specific field, and expected me to commute 2.5 hours to a farther school to teach biology. The guy who took that math spot lived 1.5 hours away, and was miserable (hasn't quit though) and is worse for the wear, stressed out and never has time for anything. If we had just switched spots (we are both capable of teaching both subjects), our commutes would have been 15 mins each.

In regards to the 1 month thing, I don't think it's necessary.
 
Personally I would get the **** out of your current lab.


Having worked under awful PIs before, they certainly don't get any better and if it's miserable now it's probably only going to get worse.

I'd do my best to convince the younger PI you like that if he makes space for you, you will be an awesome addition to his lab and it will be worth it for him. In the mean time just grit your teeth and try to deal with lab notebook checks I guess (and you're right, it's really bizarre that your PI does that).
 
Abort! Abort! Not worth the trouble. Plus the manner in which you describe the situation indicates you hate the lab and want to leave. So follow your inclination.good luck
 
pyrrion89 said:
Abort! Abort! Not worth the trouble. Plus the manner in which you describe the situation indicates you hate the lab and want to leave. So follow your inclination.good luck
Click to expand...

Seconded. Weekly notebook checks? What is this, 3rd grade?
 
Two of the most important things that you want to get out of a research experience are research skills and an excellent letter of rec. It sounds like you will get neither.
 
I would leave that lab. There are enough labs without militant jerks that feel they need to check your notebook like you're a 10 year old. Besides, if you somehow don't meet her unreasonable standards and get a B in research, you'll look like such a joke. Finally, what if you don't get a good letter from her for MD/PhD? Kiss grad school goodbye.
 
One thing I forgot to mention is that the PI is supportive of undergrads publishing papers, so long as they put in the right amount of work and effort to do so. How much work that is, I don't know...but 2 other undergrads have gotten their names on papers and then supposedly got the heck out of there. I do think the PI will write me a good letter so far as I don't cross her. One undergrad of the lab got into an awesome grad program and the other into a Top 30 med school, so she's not THAT evil.

And yeah, at first I wasn't sure if the lab notebook checks were "normal" since my last lab was super lax about everything. In addition to those the PI wants weekly reports, a weekly individual meeting, and monthly and annual cumulative reports. It just seems really controlling and overbearing, imo. I don't want to go through all that and then get slapped with a B at the end of each semester, you know? As much as I love research...

If I were to really leave, how should I explain it to the grad student and PI?
 
BlueLabel said:
Seconded. Weekly notebook checks? What is this, 3rd grade?
Click to expand...

I have been working in labs for the last 5 years and I have never had notebook checks. That is a little ridiculous, unless it is specific study that requires signatures from the PI weekly (Some studies pay for very tidy notebooks and its required)
 
BlueLabel said:
Seconded. Weekly notebook checks? What is this, 3rd grade?
Click to expand...

I have been working in labs for the last 5 years and I have never had notebook checks. That is a little ridiculous, unless it is specific study that requires signatures from the PI weekly (Some studies pay for very tidy notebooks and its required)
 
Nesmall2 said:
I have been working in labs for the last 5 years and I have never had notebook checks. That is a little ridiculous, unless it is specific study that requires signatures from the PI weekly (Some studies pay for very tidy notebooks and its required)
Click to expand...

yeah thats not the case, she does it just for the heck of it. I got reprimanded for writing the dates on the "wrong" side of the page.
.......
 
mcloaf said:
Personally I would get the **** out of your current lab.


Having worked under awful PIs before, they certainly don't get any better and if it's miserable now it's probably only going to get worse.

I'd do my best to convince the younger PI you like that if he makes space for you, you will be an awesome addition to his lab and it will be worth it for him. In the mean time just grit your teeth and try to deal with lab notebook checks I guess (and you're right, it's really bizarre that your PI does that).
Click to expand...

👍👍👍

OP, your current PI is awful so ditch the lab when you get the opportunity.
 
type12 said:
There is something to be said about known evils (knowing your enemy): you know exactly what you're in for. If you think you can handle what is in the first lab, I would take it. This is a sensitive time for you, and the unexpected is the worst thing for you right now. As chill as that guy is, you don't know how he is (just like the first PI!).

If you really like the second over the first, and will have no woe or regret over walking away when things seem to be bad, I'd go for the second. But not many people can walk away, so that's the concern here, IMO.

Case in point, I've walked away from an NSF grant because they did not believe that elementary school/high school math can be taught by anyone other than someone who did a Master's in that specific field, and expected me to commute 2.5 hours to a farther school to teach biology. The guy who took that math spot lived 1.5 hours away, and was miserable (hasn't quit though) and is worse for the wear, stressed out and never has time for anything. If we had just switched spots (we are both capable of teaching both subjects), our commutes would have been 15 mins each.

In regards to the 1 month thing, I don't think it's necessary.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree with this poster.

Based on what you have said, your PI is not evil. It sounds more like ambition, lack of trust issues, and tough love. The fact that she supports undergrads by letting them be on papers, gives LORs that have gotten people into good programs, etc suggests that she might actually be someone to stick with.

Plus... Since so many other undergrads have left so quickly, it would be a good way for you to stand out and show your dedication if you stuck through it. You might be surprised by how much more she would trust you and support you if you simply prove that you are different from the others. It might be a viable long-term relationship if you can stick it out.

The checking notebooks is a bit scary--and suggests that she has had bad experiences in the past. Don't ever let her down. Show her that you can be trusted!

Good luck making a decision. PM me if you have more questions. I have been doing research for 11 years (5 years full time) and have had 8 different PIs! Let me know if you want more specific advice! 🙂

Best,
C
 
catzzz88 said:
I tend to agree with this poster.

Based on what you have said, your PI is not evil. It sounds more like ambition, lack of trust issues, and tough love. The fact that she supports undergrads by letting them be on papers, gives LORs that have gotten people into good programs, etc suggests that she might actually be someone to stick with.

Plus... Since so many other undergrads have left so quickly, it would be a good way for you to stand out and show your dedication if you stuck through it. You might be surprised by how much more she would trust you and support you if you simply prove that you are different from the others. It might be a viable long-term relationship if you can stick it out.

The checking notebooks is a bit scary--and suggests that she has had bad experiences in the past. Don't ever let her down. Show her that you can be trusted!

Good luck making a decision. PM me if you have more questions. I have been doing research for 11 years (5 years full time) and have had 8 different PIs! Let me know if you want more specific advice! 🙂

Best,
C
Click to expand...

Hey catzzz, I've been trying to send you a PM but keep running into technical difficulties. Is there another way to reach you?
 
alhs525 said:
I already posted a thread about this, but I thought I'd give my new research lab some time before I decide to jump ship. Several weeks later and I'm still conflicted.

Pros of the lab:
I get my own independent project. I am familiar with this particular type of research so I can get results fairly quickly, and won't need to undergo much training. Because I'm applying MD/PhD, and I'm also a junior now... (my previous lab disbanded, which is why I need to find a new one) it's important that I have enough autonomy in the lab so that I can have culminating results rather than having to spend a lot of time learning new techniques and being trained.

Cons:
---Working with rude graduate student (though recently he has gotten a little better_
---PI is super strict. At first impression I thought she was really chill, but that is far from the case.
---PI wants 20-25 hours of work per week, and also wants me to keep weekends free for work. This is in addition to our 3 hour + lab meetings each week
---PI does these extremely thorough weekly notebook checks, even for the grad students and postdocs, which I find just plain weird.
---I've also heard that she doesn't easily give out As for Independent Research credit (which I need to enroll in for graduation requirements) and obviously I don't want research to bring my GPA down. ---As I've gotten to talking to the couple of other undergrads in the lab, I realized that they all want to quit. And the previous undergrads all quit after one semester or two.
---The main focus of the lab is different from my own personal interests... which I didn't realize until sitting through a few group meetings, since the initial talk I had with the PI about their work was kind of misleading. I'm more interested in biological applications, and the graduate student and I are the sole people working on this aspect. Everyone else is working on some... physical chemical stuff I don't understand/care for. So during the 3+ hour group meetings each week, it's pretty much a waste of my time because none of it is relevant to me. I feel that I might not have much to learn if the grad student were my own source of mentorship in this lab (and he's not a good mentor to being with)
^^^^^ I didn't know 99% of the above until after I had been in the lab for a couple weeks.

There is this one other lab that I am really interested in, and the PI is a really chill, young, dude who recently won a bunch of grants and funds. I corresponded with him during the summer, and he complimented me on my previous experience and said that his lab is still in the process of being set up (it's fairly new) and that he "might have a spot for me in the spring." The work he does is slightly different than what I've been trained in, so I know that there will be a period of time where I'm not doing anything productive/generating results... so I'm not sure if I should stick with my current lab for the next 2 years, or hold off until next semester to see if the "chill PI" has space for me, or just continue searching for another lab.

Help...!!!!! What do I do?!

Another thing... if I do leave this lab, since it's only been a month or so, I don't have to put it on my applications do I?
Click to expand...

I dunno who is telling you to take it, but if I were you I would hardcore scout out other labs. Look in fields beyond your primary interest. Choose your lab for the PI, not the subject matter. Trust me, a good environment and mentor will quickly spark your interest in anything, and you'll have more to show for it in this time. Hope that helps. Also, once you get into an MD/PhD, it's not very hard to start a new field for the phd if you want. Lots of students do without problems.
 
Last edited:
Hi all,
I've come to the conclusion that's it's best for my sanity to jump ship.
How do I tell the PI and grad student I want to leave without there being any bad blood?
 
alhs525 said:
Hi all,
I've come to the conclusion that's it's best for my sanity to jump ship.
How do I tell the PI and grad student I want to leave without there being any bad blood?
Click to expand...
Just let them know, say you need more time to focus on bolstering your med school chances (which is true). You're not as invaluable as you think (at least not at this point in your research career!). They are not going to lose sleep over you.
 
BlackBox said:
It's more common then you would think. Digitization has made it even easier.
Click to expand...

Actually that's a good point. I worked in a lab that had an online "lab wiki" that was set up through our department. It was private, and we were supposed to upload writeups of our experiments and results on there as we completed them. This allowed our (very busy) PI to check them out and see how we were doing at her leisure. Actually it was super useful because she could leave comments on it, which was super helpful when I didn't understand a result or felt stuck. Also it had all protocols we used, common forms and spreadsheets (like a protein quantification sheet), and useful papers to read uploaded and organized.

But I feel like that's a little different from a PI circulating around the lab to "check" your notebooks. For what? Detail? Handwriting? Unless as somebody mentioned this was a grant requirement, I don't see the point, because the PI could accomplish what my PI used to do just by talking to the lab members, rather than flipping through their notebook while they stand there awkwardly. The idea of a "notebook check" just strikes me as a little infantile and obsessive.

Edit: also, no disrespect to the OP but I find the title of this thread hilarious.
 
BlueLabel said:
Actually that's a good point. I worked in a lab that had an online "lab wiki" that was set up through our department. It was private, and we were supposed to upload writeups of our experiments and results on there as we completed them. This allowed our (very busy) PI to check them out and see how we were doing at her leisure. Actually it was super useful because she could leave comments on it, which was super helpful when I didn't understand a result or felt stuck. Also it had all protocols we used, common forms and spreadsheets (like a protein quantification sheet), and useful papers to read uploaded and organized.

But I feel like that's a little different from a PI circulating around the lab to "check" your notebooks. For what? Detail? Handwriting? Unless as somebody mentioned this was a grant requirement, I don't see the point, because the PI could accomplish what my PI used to do just by talking to the lab members, rather than flipping through their notebook while they stand there awkwardly. The idea of a "notebook check" just strikes me as a little infantile and obsessive.

Edit: also, no disrespect to the OP but I find the title of this thread hilarious.
Click to expand...

Haha just wondering why you find the title funny?

Yeah she checks the notebooks for our protocols, handwriting, formatting, neatness of pictures, and to make sure we are adhering to the rules she has set, like you must document everything within X hours or else you need to repeat the whole experiment. In addition to that we also have a similar lab wiki thing where we upload weekly results and plans.
 
alhs525 said:
Haha just wondering why you find the title funny?

Yeah she checks the notebooks for our protocols, handwriting, formatting, neatness of pictures, and to make sure we are adhering to the rules she has set, like you must document everything within X hours or else you need to repeat the whole experiment. In addition to that we also have a similar lab wiki thing where we upload weekly results and plans.
Click to expand...

This is e kind of stringency you will find in biotech. Probably won't be checked everyday ay, but the specifications you are noting is not totally random and will actually teach you excellent practices!

As for reaching me, not sure why the PM is not working... I can't exactly give me email address on a public forum. Perhaps try again?
 
alhs525 said:
Haha just wondering why you find the title funny?

Yeah she checks the notebooks for our protocols, handwriting, formatting, neatness of pictures, and to make sure we are adhering to the rules she has set, like you must document everything within X hours or else you need to repeat the whole experiment. In addition to that we also have a similar lab wiki thing where we upload weekly results and plans.
Click to expand...

This is the kind of stringency you will find in biotech. Probably won't be checked everyday ay, but the specifications you are noting is not totally random and will actually teach you excellent practices!

As for reaching me, not sure why the PM is not working... I can't exactly give me email address on a public forum. Perhaps try again?
 
BlueLabel said:
Unless as somebody mentioned this was a grant requirement, I don't see the point, because the PI could accomplish what my PI used to do just by talking to the lab members, rather than flipping through their notebook while they stand there awkwardly. The idea of a "notebook check" just strikes me as a little infantile and obsessive.
Click to expand...

Your lab notebook is a legal document, documenting the work that was done and when it was done, by whom, etc.

Biotech/industry is obsessed with clean and precise notebooks because it directly impacts patent filings and such. Depending on where you work you may have to take classes on how to keep a proper notebook and have daily/weekly signoffs or checks. In translational work it becomes important because that's the sort of documentation the FDA requires for pre-IND filings and similar. In more basic science it generally isn't stressed enough, it only becomes an issue when something goes wrong, such as when a researcher is suspected of research misconduct and they start gathering evidence.
 
BlueLabel said:
Actually that's a good point. I worked in a lab that had an online "lab wiki" that was set up through our department. It was private, and we were supposed to upload writeups of our experiments and results on there as we completed them. This allowed our (very busy) PI to check them out and see how we were doing at her leisure. Actually it was super useful because she could leave comments on it, which was super helpful when I didn't understand a result or felt stuck. Also it had all protocols we used, common forms and spreadsheets (like a protein quantification sheet), and useful papers to read uploaded and organized.

But I feel like that's a little different from a PI circulating around the lab to "check" your notebooks. For what? Detail? Handwriting? Unless as somebody mentioned this was a grant requirement, I don't see the point, because the PI could accomplish what my PI used to do just by talking to the lab members, rather than flipping through their notebook while they stand there awkwardly. The idea of a "notebook check" just strikes me as a little infantile and obsessive.
Click to expand...

Most universities have strict notebook policies. I know the grad students at UPenn are required to bring their notebooks to their committee meetings for inspection. Now whether or not this is actually enforced has depended on the student in question. When I was beginning my thesis work, my PI would literally open up my notebook and thumb it right in front of the lab. 🙂
 
My PI is chill as f***. We chill, talk about partying and go to happy hours all the time hahaha
 
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