Residency chances?

[cpa2011]

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Hi,

My husband is a FMG, he doesnt need a visa and already has a greencard, please see qualifications below.

Graduated 2003
Step 1 - 215/85
step 2- 185/75
step 2ck- second attempt waitting for results.

From 2003 he had his resdency in Pakistan, and became an opthomologist. He was an opthomologist in Pakistan till 2013. As an opthomologist he did surgeries as well. He came to the US in 2013, and has been doing observerships in different clinical settings.

Just trying to understand, when medical residencies talk about graduation date, they are lookin at the year you completed medical school or is it when you started the step 1 exam? My husband says its when you start the step 1 exam.

Anyway, does anyone know if he can get a residency in the US, if so where/what should he apply for, and how many applications should he put in. If he can't get a resdiency what should he do? He mentioned doing a Physician's assistant course, but I am worried that he wont pass the exam for that, and then he will be in the same place as he is in now.

Any advise is appreicated.

 

[gutonc]

Hi,

My husband is a FMG, he doesnt need a visa and already has a greencard, please see qualifications below.

Graduated 2003
Step 1 - 215/85
step 2- 185/75
step 2ck- second attempt waitting for results.

From 2003 he had his resdency in Pakistan, and became an opthomologist. He was an opthomologist in Pakistan till 2013. As an opthomologist he did surgeries as well. He came to the US in 2013, and has been doing observerships in different clinical settings.

Just trying to understand, when medical residencies talk about graduation date, they are lookin at the year you completed medical school or is it when you started the step 1 exam? My husband says its when you start the step 1 exam.

Anyway, does anyone know if he can get a residency in the US, if so where/what should he apply for, and how many applications should he put in. If he can't get a resdiency what should he do? He mentioned doing a Physician's assistant course, but I am worried that he wont pass the exam for that, and then he will be in the same place as he is in now.

Any advise is appreicated.

Year of graduation is the year of graduation, not the year of Steps. He's 11 years out. He's unlikely to get a residency but the chances are not zero. He will definitely NOT get an Ophtho spot though. FM, Psych, maybe Path. He might want to proceed down the PA path though.

 

[ShinyDome19]

Hi,
Just trying to understand, when medical residencies talk about graduation date, they are lookin at the year you completed medical school or is it when you started the step 1 exam? My husband says its when you start the step 1 exam.

I dont know for sure, this is likely something they look at bc I believe you have 10-years to complete/pass all of your STEP exams.

 

[Raryn]

I dont know for sure, this is likely something they look at bc I believe you have 10-years to complete/pass all of your STEP exams.

You have 7 years to complete all your step exams unless you're an MD/PhD.

That said, year of graduation is still the year your MD/DO/MBBS/whatever was granted. Nothing to do with your step exams.

 

[rokshana]

maybe optometry school?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Also, it's obvious that his steps were at least several years ago. You listed his Step 2 score as 185/75. The minimum pass on Step 2 is currently 203, and will shortly be 209. Hence that passing 185 is from quite a few years ago. I assume by "second attempt awaiting results" you mean CS. With a CS fail, 185 Step 2, graduated 11 years ago, and was an ophthalmologist (which would not bring many useful skills to the less competitive fields), he has a very low chance of getting anything to be honest. At this point he has little to lose by applying once and seeing what happens. He's going to need to apply to FM, Pysch, and Path as the least competitive fields. PM&R is also a possibility but he would need a prelim also -- probably prelim surgery. He would need to apply to the least competitive locations, and probably at least 100 programs. Even with that, his options may be very limited. Not trying to be mean, but be honest.

There is something called "Charting Outcomes in the Match for IMG's" which was published this year. If you look at it, it will tell you that:

A Step 2 CK score of 185 = 10% chance of matching overall, 23% for FM
For CS you need to look at the individual specialty tables. For FM, Non-US IMG, failing CS once (hence two attempts) yielded a 25/128 = 20% match rate
Average # of years since grad for matched candidates was 4.7, unmatched 7.5. However there was a big spread depending on field (pathology had an average of 9.4) For FM, 12/91 = 13% match for 11-15 years out from graduation.

You can look at all the data yourself. Bottom line is that his chances are statistically low -- probably 10-20% -- and much now hinges on his observership experiences and connections. Only he/you can decide if it's worth the application fees. Good luck!

 

[cpa2011]

Also, it's obvious that his steps were at least several years ago. You listed his Step 2 score as 185/75. The minimum pass on Step 2 is currently 203, and will shortly be 209. Hence that passing 185 is from quite a few years ago. I assume by "second attempt awaiting results" you mean CS. With a CS fail, 185 Step 2, graduated 11 years ago, and was an ophthalmologist (which would not bring many useful skills to the less competitive fields), he has a very low chance of getting anything to be honest. At this point he has little to lose by applying once and seeing what happens. He's going to need to apply to FM, Pysch, and Path as the least competitive fields. PM&R is also a possibility but he would need a prelim also -- probably prelim surgery. He would need to apply to the least competitive locations, and probably at least 100 programs. Even with that, his options may be very limited. Not trying to be mean, but be honest.

There is something called "Charting Outcomes in the Match for IMG's" which was published this year. If you look at it, it will tell you that:

A Step 2 CK score of 185 = 10% chance of matching overall, 23% for FM
For CS you need to look at the individual specialty tables. For FM, Non-US IMG, failing CS once (hence two attempts) yielded a 25/128 = 20% match rate
Average # of years since grad for matched candidates was 4.7, unmatched 7.5. However there was a big spread depending on field (pathology had an average of 9.4) For FM, 12/91 = 13% match for 11-15 years out from graduation.

You can look at all the data yourself. Bottom line is that his chances are statistically low -- probably 10-20% -- and much now hinges on his observership experiences and connections. Only he/you can decide if it's worth the application fees. Good luck!

Thanks for your advise, I wish I knew this all sooner, Im sure he knew he wouldnt get a residency before he came here, but he acted like he will definately get a residency before I married him. Anyway what places are the least competitive locations? Can you please advise, as Im going to be paying for all him fees for applying, I want to make sure atleast he applies to someplaces where someone may feel sorry for him and give him a chance

 

[slappy]

It's hard to answer that question.

However, there is a website called "FREIDA Online" where you can check (you have to sign up for a free account) the residency programs available in each specialty. If you click on the name of the programs, you will be taken to a page where you can see for yourself the % of IMGs and US MDs in that program. Logic dictates that he would have a higher chance of matching at programs that already have a lot of IMGs. It would be safe to assume that, at least in his case, programs with 0% IMGs are out.

Also, it's wise to apply broadly here - spanning the previously mentioned specialties (you would need different personal statements, and preferably different letters of recommendations for each) in as many programs as possible depending on your finances (you pay a fee for each program you apply to).

 

[primadonna22274]

Was his difficulty on the steps due to the language barrier?
185 is a very low step 2ck score. I don't think this bodes well for passing PANCE (the Physician Assistant National Certification Exam) since the exams are similar in scope and knowledge base, medical decision-making etc (although USMLE 2-CK and its osteopathic counterpart, COMLEX-2CE test scientific mechanisms of disease and pathophysiology at a deeper level somewhat). If the problem is that his general knowledge base and clinical acumen were lacking, PA school and PANCE will be difficult as well. If the problem is a lack of English language mastery, I would encourage him to enroll in English language courses that include speaking, hearing, reading and writing until he is quite comfortable with the language--enough to learn a whole new profession as a PA.
One thing that's universally difficult for physicians trained outside the US is the very different socialization of the PA role. For someone who's been used to practicing at a high level of independence and technical skill, it can be very difficult to subjugate that knowledge and experience to the dependent PA role. We PAs are well trained with a broad foundation in general medicine and clinical skills, but we are limited in scope of practice and professional advancement by state licensing and practice laws and institutional rules. It can be very frustrating to be a mid-career PA and realize your practice is limited by rules and regulations when your knowledge and skills have outgrown your role. A few of us are frustrated enough to go back to med school as I did (hence, my knowledge of both exams).
Good luck to you and your husband.

 

[gutonc]

maybe optometry school?

Initially I was all about the PA route but I like this one more and more. No idea what the rules are for foreign MDs getting degrees as an OD but worth a look if he likes eyes.

 

[primadonna22274]

I thought of that too (optometry). As long as he can live without operating. Still needs to be highly functional in the English language to do this here in the US.

 

[gutonc]

I thought of that too (optometry). As long as he can live without operating. Still needs to be highly functional in the English language to do this here in the US.

Not really.

"Which is better, this or this?" is pretty easy to memorize.

 

[primadonna22274]

Ok, highly functional to get through school and board exams

 

[sazerac]

I thought of that too (optometry). As long as he can live without operating. Still needs to be highly functional in the English language to do this here in the US.

Optometrists perform eye surgery in OK, KY, and most recently LA. The march of the mid-levels goes on in all fields.

 

[rokshana]

Optometrists perform eye surgery in OK, KY, and most recently LA. The march of the mid-levels goes on in all fields.

actually optometry is a professional degree…the have to do an undergraduate degree and 4 years post graduate years leading to a Doctor of Optometry….it would be the same thing as calling a dentist a mid level…they are not.

 

[chartero]

New England College of Optometry in Boston offers an accelerated, 27-month full-time Doctor of Optometry for qualified PhD or MD holders. "The program was created in 1972 and is the only program of its kind in the United States.… most of the physicians in the program are foreign M.D.s with extensive clinical and/or research experience in ophthalmology." I would personally guess that an MBBS would qualify where that's the standard medical degree and the MD is a higher degree. More: Accelerated Optometric Degree Program.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I'm fascinated by the marriage comment. Arranged marriage to a doctor only to find out he may not be a doctor? Oops.

Ophtho PA or OD school are the answer.


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Prince090]

Thanks for your advise, I wish I knew this all sooner, Im sure he knew he wouldnt get a residency before he came here, but he acted like he will definately get a residency before I married him. Anyway what places are the least competitive locations? Can you please advise, as Im going to be paying for all him fees for applying, I want to make sure atleast he applies to someplaces where someone may feel sorry for him and give him a chance

Oh ..... The marriage part really struck me out.


I don't know whether I am right or wrong but I believe you are getting duped because of your ignorance ( no disrespect ). With the score you listed , I agree with everyone that his chances are near to zero.

You should think critically before paying the fees for applying. The amount will be in thousands of dollars and given the situation, I don't personally believe it will lead to any fruitful results.

 

[Law2Doc]

I'm fascinated by the marriage comment. Arranged marriage to a doctor only to find out he may not be a doctor? Oops....

I'd watch that TV show... (maybe call it "NOT married to medicine")...

 

[Mad Jack]

Was his difficulty on the steps due to the language barrier?
185 is a very low step 2ck score. I don't think this bodes well for passing PANCE (the Physician Assistant National Certification Exam) since the exams are similar in scope and knowledge base, medical decision-making etc (although USMLE 2-CK and its osteopathic counterpart, COMLEX-2CE test scientific mechanisms of disease and pathophysiology at a deeper level somewhat). If the problem is that his general knowledge base and clinical acumen were lacking, PA school and PANCE will be difficult as well. If the problem is a lack of English language mastery, I would encourage him to enroll in English language courses that include speaking, hearing, reading and writing until he is quite comfortable with the language--enough to learn a whole new profession as a PA.
One thing that's universally difficult for physicians trained outside the US is the very different socialization of the PA role. For someone who's been used to practicing at a high level of independence and technical skill, it can be very difficult to subjugate that knowledge and experience to the dependent PA role. We PAs are well trained with a broad foundation in general medicine and clinical skills, but we are limited in scope of practice and professional advancement by state licensing and practice laws and institutional rules. It can be very frustrating to be a mid-career PA and realize your practice is limited by rules and regulations when your knowledge and skills have outgrown your role. A few of us are frustrated enough to go back to med school as I did (hence, my knowledge of both exams).
Good luck to you and your husband.

I worked with a LOT of Filipino physicians that had become nurses in the US and were perfectly happy. Also had a Chinese pulmonologist turned RT around, absolute genius that enjoyed the laid-back lifestyle compared to his attending and research days. It's more of a personality and priorities thing- some people can deal, others can't.

 

[Mad Jack]

actually optometry is a professional degree…the have to do an undergraduate degree and 4 years post graduate years leading to a Doctor of Optometry….it would be the same thing as calling a dentist a mid level…they are not.

Midlevel refers more to scope than anything. Your level of degree matters less than your prescriptive and procedural rights.

Optos doing eye surgery is quite literally terrifying.

 

[rokshana]

Midlevel refers more to scope than anything. Your level of degree matters less than your prescriptive and procedural rights.

Optos doing eye surgery is quite literally terrifying.

HOW on EARTH did you make the leap that an optometrist would DO surgery because i said it was a professional degree??!!!

an orthopedic PA will do more surgery and procedures than i will ever do as an endocrinologist…however I am still an MD and he is a midlevel….

 

[Mad Jack]

HOW on EARTH did you make the leap that an optometrist would DO surgery because i said it was a professional degree??!!!

It was stated by another poster here if you, ya know, read the whole thread. It is literally terrifying. The quote is included below.

Optometrists perform eye surgery in OK, KY, and most recently LA. The march of the mid-levels goes on in all fields.

 

[rokshana]

It was stated by another poster here if you, ya know, read the whole thread. It is literally terrifying. The quote is included below.

lol…i totally missed the beginning of that post😳….and i answered it too! all i saw was the mid level thing….