Residency for an IMG in CA

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sgk14

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Hi.
To introduce myself I am an IMG , YOG-2012. I did 3 electives in the US and cleared my Step2 CS. I am preparing for Step1 currently.
I am hoping to apply at places like Stanford / UCSF. Being an IMG would you please suggest what I may require to build a strong application to be competent enough for these programs?
Has any IMG matched to either Stanford or UCSF ?

Any input is highly appreciated.
Thanks!🙂
 
You can just check their housestaff lists. It will answer all your questions. If you have to ask, you can't afford it.

Hi.
To introduce myself I am an IMG , YOG-2012. I did 3 electives in the US and cleared my Step2 CS. I am preparing for Step1 currently.
I am hoping to apply at places like Stanford / UCSF. Being an IMG would you please suggest what I may require to build a strong application to be competent enough for these programs?
Has any IMG matched to either Stanford or UCSF ?

Any input is highly appreciated.
Thanks!🙂
 
Hi.
To introduce myself I am an IMG , YOG-2012. I did 3 electives in the US and cleared my Step2 CS. I am preparing for Step1 currently.
I am hoping to apply at places like Stanford / UCSF. Being an IMG would you please suggest what I may require to build a strong application to be competent enough for these programs?
Has any IMG matched to either Stanford or UCSF ?

Any input is highly appreciated.
Thanks!🙂

You need to be realistic. Stanford and UCSF are tough nuts to crack for top US applicants. You've got at least 2 red flags already (IMG and minimal USCE). There's no reason not to apply (it's cheap) but don't hold your breath.
 
You need to be realistic. Stanford and UCSF are tough nuts to crack for top US applicants. You've got at least 2 red flags already (IMG and minimal USCE). There's no reason not to apply (it's cheap) but don't hold your breath.

Since when is being an IMG a red flag?!
 
Since always. At least for the most competitive programs. It's not something that can't be overcome, but it certainly doesn't help.

I'll agree with that - I suppose all one can really do is work hard to improve their credentials. Naturally, certain institutions have a good history of accepting stellar IMGs (MGH, JHU, Mayo, Vanderbilt), but I'm not sure if UCSF or Stanford ever have or ever will be willing to accept IMGs.
 
I'll agree with that - I suppose all one can really do is work hard to improve their credentials. Naturally, certain institutions have a good history of accepting stellar IMGs (MGH, JHU, Mayo, Vanderbilt), but I'm not sure if UCSF or Stanford ever have or ever will be willing to accept IMGs.

Also, there are IMGs and there are IMGs. None of those places are routinely taking Carib kids.
 
Hi.
To introduce myself I am an IMG , YOG-2012. I did 3 electives in the US and cleared my Step2 CS. I am preparing for Step1 currently.
I am hoping to apply at places like Stanford / UCSF. Being an IMG would you please suggest what I may require to build a strong application to be competent enough for these programs?
Has any IMG matched to either Stanford or UCSF ?

Any input is highly appreciated.
Thanks!🙂
just to give an idea , I know one of the non-us img's who matched to MGH .
 
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Also, there are IMGs and there are IMGs. None of those places are routinely taking Carib kids.

EDIT: Caribbean schools seem to be struggling. Then again, the calibre of program our graduates (UK/ Ireland) matched at this year, although very good, wasn't stellar.
 
I bet there are some who would argue that the program should not have the choice to rank him until there is at least one American willing to take the spot.

just to give an idea , I know one of the non-us img's who matched to MGH ..his app stats were , 2012 grad, 262/276/244 ... 3 months USCE , 8 published papers and 8 submitted.
 
I bet there are some who would argue that the program should not have the choice to rank him until there is at least one American willing to take the spot.

You would argue that some would so ignorantly ignore the value that America as a nation places on promise and equality? People who would argue in favour of adopting an 'America for the Americans' approach without considering what exactly constitutes an American?

I'd definitely like to hear from those people.
 
Thank you so much for your response. One of my seniors also matched to Mayo(he had a good score, 3 months USCE and relatives in Mayo, so I am not sure what exactly helped him get there) I am planning to take up research for a year and then apply for 2014 match. I am hardworking and have a little knowledge and experience that might help in getting a couple of publications. I did check the list of the residents there, they all seem to be grads from reputed US schools. My question is if I need to build a strong CV , strong enough to be considered by these programs, what exactly do I need to focus on?

Thanks!
 
Thank you so much for your response. One of my seniors also matched to Mayo(he had a good score, 3 months USCE and relatives in Mayo, so I am not sure what exactly helped him get there) I am planning to take up research for a year and then apply for 2014 match. I am hardworking and have a little knowledge and experience that might help in getting a couple of publications. I did check the list of the residents there, they all seem to be grads from reputed US schools. My question is if I need to build a strong CV , strong enough to be considered by these programs, what exactly do I need to focus on?

Thanks!

Go to a US med school.

Not kidding.
 
Relatives at Mayo help.

But Mayo is not UCSF. For UCSF to even consider interviewing you, you must have connections at UCSF, have ~270 in both step and really significant and recognized research record, not merely some pubs/posters.

Your best bet would be to do residency at a program that values research and excel there. This will level the playing field when applying for fellowship.

Thank you so much for your response. One of my seniors also matched to Mayo(he had a good score, 3 months USCE and relatives in Mayo, so I am not sure what exactly helped him get there) I am planning to take up research for a year and then apply for 2014 match. I am hardworking and have a little knowledge and experience that might help in getting a couple of publications. I did check the list of the residents there, they all seem to be grads from reputed US schools. My question is if I need to build a strong CV , strong enough to be considered by these programs, what exactly do I need to focus on?

Thanks!
 
Go to a US med school.

Not kidding.

Haha!

In fairness, there are quite a few IMG Residents in Mayo. I could name a few from my home country off the top of my head in MGH, JHU, Vanderbilt, Wash U, a nice few others. It's not bad for a country of 3.5 million people!

Disclaimer: I know Internal Med has become lethally competitive, much more so than when they would have applied years ago.

That said, I think the OP has a great mentality, and I think he/ she will end up getting where he/ she wants with the correct groundwork - and this ain't blind encouragement.
 
Relatives at Mayo help.

But Mayo is not UCSF. For UCSF to even consider interviewing you, you must have connections at UCSF, have ~270 in both step and really significant and recognized research record, not merely some pubs/posters.

Your best bet would be to do residency at a program that values research and excel there. This will level the playing field when applying for fellowship.
Thank you.
That was helpful. 🙂
 
Haha!

In fairness, there are quite a few IMG Residents in Mayo. I could name a few from my home country off the top of my head in MGH, JHU, Vanderbilt, Wash U, a nice few others. It's not bad for a country of 3.5 million people!

Disclaimer: I know Internal Med has become lethally competitive, much more so than when they would have applied years ago.

That said, I think the OP has a great mentality, and I think he/ she will end up getting where he/ she wants with the correct groundwork - and this ain't blind encouragement.

Thank you so much! 🙂
 
just to give an idea , I know one of the non-us img's who matched to MGH ..his app stats were , 2012 grad, 262/276/244 ... 3 months USCE , 8 published papers and 8 submitted.
Thanks. That was a good piece of information .
I do realize how things have been so far with IMGs. However, this year few of my friends matched to reputed places like Yale for competitive residencies( seemingly more competitive than IM)
I am wanting to know what it takes to match at these places. It doesnt hurt to explore , I do not lose anything by trying. Atleast I am sure , in the process, I strengthen my CV and get something worth my efforts. 🙂
 
UCSF and Stanford are neither in New Haven, nor in Rochester. Also IM is becoming much more competitive now.

Thanks. That was a good piece of information .
I do realize how things have been so far with IMGs. However, this year few of my friends matched to reputed places like Yale for competitive residencies( seemingly more competitive than IM)
I am wanting to know what it takes to match at these places. It doesnt hurt to explore , I do not lose anything by trying. Atleast I am sure , in the process, I strengthen my CV and get something worth my efforts. 🙂
 
Thanks. That was a good piece of information .
I do realize how things have been so far with IMGs. However, this year few of my friends matched to reputed places like Yale for competitive residencies( seemingly more competitive than IM)
I am wanting to know what it takes to match at these places. It doesnt hurt to explore , I do not lose anything by trying. Atleast I am sure , in the process, I strengthen my CV and get something worth my efforts. 🙂

Exactly - no harm in spending the $25 on the application!
 
I'll agree with that - I suppose all one can really do is work hard to improve their credentials. Naturally, certain institutions have a good history of accepting stellar IMGs (MGH, JHU, Mayo, Vanderbilt), but I'm not sure if UCSF or Stanford ever have or ever will be willing to accept IMGs.

I don't understand what point you're trying to make, so I'll avoid a senseless argument by quoting the above.
 
You would argue that some would so ignorantly ignore the value that America as a nation places on promise and equality? People who would argue in favour of adopting an 'America for the Americans' approach without considering what exactly constitutes an American?

I'd definitely like to hear from those people.

I think you misunderstand what the difference is between a US graduate and an IMG. The US graduate is better qualified in almost every aspect. They went to a school that was certified, passed their board exams on a proscribed schedule, completed their (accreditted) clerkships on a proscribed schedule, etc etc. An IMG does none of these things. Having US experience and going through a US med school are two very different things. An IMG does none of these things. They went to a school with no LCME oversight, they performed US rotations with much less expectations than a US graduate and they can spend as much as time as they want studying for the board exams. That's what makes IMG graduates less desirable. On top of that, foreigners have to be sponsored and getting through visa paperwork is not an efficient use of time.

In this context, an American is easy to define. It's a citizen or permanent resident who has gone through US medical school training. An IMG, whether a foreigner or a US citizen, does not fulfill at least one of those criteria. It's no wonder that IMGs are less coveted by US residencies. IMGs should consider themselves lucky that they can even qualify for a residency. In most of the developed world, your foreign medical degree is essentially worthless. The barriers to practice are much higher in Europe for a foreigner than here in the US.
 
I think you misunderstand what the difference is between a US graduate and an IMG. The US graduate is better qualified in almost every aspect. They went to a school that was certified, passed their board exams on a proscribed schedule, completed their (accreditted) clerkships on a proscribed schedule, etc etc. An IMG does none of these things. Having US experience and going through a US med school are two very different things. An IMG does none of these things. They went to a school with no LCME oversight, they performed US rotations with much less expectations than a US graduate and they can spend as much as time as they want studying for the board exams. That's what makes IMG graduates less desirable. On top of that, foreigners have to be sponsored and getting through visa paperwork is not an efficient use of time.

In this context, an American is easy to define. It's a citizen or permanent resident who has gone through US medical school training. An IMG, whether a foreigner or a US citizen, does not fulfill at least one of those criteria. It's no wonder that IMGs are less coveted by US residencies. IMGs should consider themselves lucky that they can even qualify for a residency. In most of the developed world, your foreign medical degree is essentially worthless. The barriers to practice are much higher in Europe for a foreigner than here in the US.

Your argument is reasonable, but I'll address some of the points raised.

I agree that the barriers here in Europe are much higher. This is unfortunate and is something I disagree with. I see this even with American graduates qualifying from our school here in Europe - they're ranked beneath even the lowest-ranked national student. I'd like to see the brightest, best qualified individuals get jobs - unfortunately this isn't the case.

You are definitely misperceiving the time available to us to study for board exam. While the stories of Postgraduate IMGs taking years off to complete their boards certainly pertain, this is not the case for those of us at Undergraduate level. We have approximately the same amount of time available as the average US student. It's even more difficult with Step 2 CS and CK as, in our school, we receive no designated time off or study breaks between our penultimate and final year, and so need to fit this in during our rotations. I'm sure this is the case in a lot of US school so, as I mentioned, I think the time available is comparable. It's not comparable, however, when an IMG takes 2-3 years off to complete their board exams. Thankfully, this is considered by Program Directors.

The standard of education here is non-inferior, though not superior, to US schools. This is demonstrated by our Board scores and the fact that we can perform to a similar standard as US students when we carry out Electives in the US. I, for one, received extremely positive feedback on my Electives in the US, and both my Step 1 and Step 2 scores are around 20 points higher than the US average.

One point I will make, and I think you were alluding to it, is the fact that the responsibilities of final year US students and final year European students are extremely different. I was taken aback by the fact that US students effectively function as sub-Interns and are valued members of the team for their final year - thereby creating a seamless transition from Final Year to PGY1. Here, we effectively function as Observers throughout Medical School. For this reason, I feel that some clinical experience is essential for IMGs before attempting to embark on a US Residency.

The fact that we're able to compete with US students for Residency spots isn't a right - it's a privilege. I feel that no IMG should take this for granted, and this is the reason we hold the US in such high esteem. The standard of Postgraduate training in the US is the best in the world by a long way. I'm very thankful for the opportunity to be able to compete for those posts.

Again, you articulated your points very well and your argument, as a whole, was reasonable.

EDIT: I just spotted your point regarding the completion of the Steps on a proscribed schedule. Again, it's a good point - there's no date by which we have to take the exam. Although it would be foolish to let it slide into the penultimate or final year, this is often done and probably not considered by Residency programs. I know this is also the case in a lot of US schools, but the curriculum is very, very different to our own curriculum (if that helps!).
 
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I think you misunderstand what the difference is between a US graduate and an IMG. The US graduate is better qualified in almost every aspect. They went to a school that was certified, passed their board exams on a proscribed schedule, completed their (accreditted) clerkships on a proscribed schedule, etc etc. An IMG does none of these things. Having US experience and going through a US med school are two very different things. An IMG does none of these things. They went to a school with no LCME oversight, they performed US rotations with much less expectations than a US graduate and they can spend as much as time as they want studying for the board exams. That's what makes IMG graduates less desirable. On top of that, foreigners have to be sponsored and getting through visa paperwork is not an efficient use of time.

In this context, an American is easy to define. It's a citizen or permanent resident who has gone through US medical school training. An IMG, whether a foreigner or a US citizen, does not fulfill at least one of those criteria. It's no wonder that IMGs are less coveted by US residencies. IMGs should consider themselves lucky that they can even qualify for a residency. In most of the developed world, your foreign medical degree is essentially worthless. The barriers to practice are much higher in Europe for a foreigner than here in the US.


just to be clear, there is a big difference between a US IMG who went to the Caribbean vs the IMG that you're describing here. A Caribbean IMG does all of those things the same way as an AMG- at least at SGU
 
just to be clear, there is a big difference between a US IMG who went to the Caribbean vs the IMG that you're describing here. A Caribbean IMG does all of those things the same way as an AMG- at least at SGU

This is honestly going to turn into a pissing contest of whether a US-IMG in a European school is > a US-IMG in a Caribbean school or a US-IMG in an Indian school, or whether a European IMG is > a US-IMG in a Caribbean school. The only reality that exists is success with matching. As far as I can see from looking through countless Residency lists, the Caribbean students are having a tough time of it nowadays - I don't know why this is, but it's the reality.
 
It is interesting to see such opinions about different 'grades' of IMGs. However, I am not very keen on knowing or even proving who is more/less efficient . It does give me a picture of how people might look at me as an Indian IMG, therefore it is helpful. I now know what exactly I need to work on to be a good candidate for the match.
Thank you all for your suggestions. I would appreciate more input on how I could build a strong CV for competitive programs as I mentioned before.
👍
 
I would appreciate more input on how I could build a strong CV for competitive programs as I mentioned before.
👍

UCSF and Stanford get a lot of stellar applicants from top tier U.S. med schools and crazy super stars from other medical schools. It is hard to compete with them and frankly they reject a lot of great applicants (myself, I matched at another "Big 8" residency in the Northeast, but received rejections from those 2 places). Why not settle for other California academic programs? Or Mayo/Vanderbilt? Is prestige at the residency level that big of deal to you? Most IMG start at mid-tier and work their way up to top tier for fellowships/faculty positions.

More helpful advice: Email PD at both UCSF and Stanford for what they look for. You should try to do research and clinical electives at those institutions. Make sure you do well, and hopefully a UCSF/stanford faculty can support you on your behalf. Receive LORs from those institutions. Score 260+ on the Steps. It also helps if your medical school has a working relationship with those institutions. Are you maybe top 10% or top 25% at least from your medical school?, that might be important.
 
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Get nominated for Nobel. Or at least publish as a first author in Nature. This might help. I can assure you that 260 in steps is not enough to get you noticed.
It is interesting to see such opinions about different 'grades' of IMGs. However, I am not very keen on knowing or even proving who is more/less efficient . It does give me a picture of how people might look at me as an Indian IMG, therefore it is helpful. I now know what exactly I need to work on to be a good candidate for the match.
Thank you all for your suggestions. I would appreciate more input on how I could build a strong CV for competitive programs as I mentioned before.
👍
 
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I think you misunderstand what the difference is between a US graduate and an IMG. The US graduate is better qualified in almost every aspect. They went to a school that was certified, passed their board exams on a proscribed schedule, completed their (accreditted) clerkships on a proscribed schedule, etc etc. An IMG does none of these things. Having US experience and going through a US med school are two very different things. An IMG does none of these things. They went to a school with no LCME oversight, they performed US rotations with much less expectations than a US graduate and they can spend as much as time as they want studying for the board exams. That's what makes IMG graduates less desirable. On top of that, foreigners have to be sponsored and getting through visa paperwork is not an efficient use of time.

In this context, an American is easy to define. It's a citizen or permanent resident who has gone through US medical school training. An IMG, whether a foreigner or a US citizen, does not fulfill at least one of those criteria. It's no wonder that IMGs are less coveted by US residencies. IMGs should consider themselves lucky that they can even qualify for a residency. In most of the developed world, your foreign medical degree is essentially worthless. The barriers to practice are much higher in Europe for a foreigner than here in the US.

you are so uneducated on the IMG process it's almost embarrassing to read your post. please stop, you are so wrong in so many different ways.

just to be clear, there is a big difference between a US IMG who went to the Caribbean vs the IMG that you're describing here. A Caribbean IMG does all of those things the same way as an AMG- at least at SGU

this is true, but SGU is not the only one. A school that is not considered the "top 4" just had an Ortho placement, for example.
 
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you are so uneducated on the IMG process it's almost embarrassing to read your post. please stop, you are so wrong in so many different ways.

Why don't you point out the places where I'm wrong?
 
Thank you darkelven29 . That would surely help me plan my approach. It would be great if you had some more smart suggestions to share.
 
What does that mean? It that meant to exclude Columbia and Penn from the top 10?

Huh? What do you mean? I matched at one of the two, and they are both definitely top 10, if not Big 8. My point was that even so, I didn't even get interview from Stanford or UCSF, let alone being able to match there. And so, the thought process is that it would be even harder for a qualified IMG. Whatever, this point is not important.

You should find out if other medical students from your school have gone to top tier IM programs (and UCSF/Stanford specifically if possible). If a program has gotten good residents from your school, the chance of them taking more from your school would be higher. Programs need to be familiar with your school first, and once they are past that, they want to take 1. the best from your school (top 10% or at least top quarter?), 2. someone comparable to US med students (board scores 240+, good evals and LORs from US clinical experiences), and 3. some unique points (research, pubs, interesting extracurriculars, leadership).

To give an example, on the interview trail, I've encountered students from specific schools in Qatar (Cornell), Lebanon? (Vanderbilt), Colombia (Pitt), and Peru (UTSW) because they have had a good history with those programs. Mayo and Emory also had several IMGs from Europe I think, but don't remember where and might not be recurrent. Since I didn't interview at UCSF/Stanford 🙁 I don't know if they interviewed IMG or not and whether certain foreign schools are on their good list. But if you go to the Stanford IM website, their residents from all 3 years are all from US medical schools, and overwhelming majority from top 20 schools.
 
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Hi if someone can give me some input, i am a US citizen currently an MS4 in a caribbean School, i have a decent GPA (3.6) i got 262 in step 1 and had not yet taken CS or CK but i plan to before i graduate or some months thereafter, a have lots of extracurricular activities as teaching experience, social medicine work and volunteering and student organizations, i have not delayed my studies and i will do a 3 month internal medicine rotation at New york presbyterian Columbia MC, i do not have any publications, do i have any chance in matching in mid to top tier Internal medicine programs? Can i do somethingto i prove my curriculum besides getting a higher step 2? Thanks in advance
 
This whole post is hilarious. a good morning laugh. It never ceases to entertain me when someone drops "the big 8" or an ambitious (but average) IMG thinks they can get into MGH or stanford because they "know for a fact that they took an IMG before" or when an AMG thinks they're automatically better than any IMG just because ...
 
This whole post is hilarious. a good morning laugh. It never ceases to entertain me when someone drops "the big 8" or an ambitious (but average) IMG thinks they can get into MGH or stanford because they "know for a fact that they took an IMG before" or when an AMG thinks they're automatically better than any IMG just because ...

Well seeing as the majority of people on SDN either claim to be from "top" schools or get into subsequent shaft-measuring contests about how prestigious they are or their residency is, this is hardly surprising. It's not only a poor representation of society, it's a poor representation of medical school period.

I go to a mid/upper mid tier residency. Our fellowship match is decent even if not everyone is going to Harvard or Hopkins or whatever. And yet the fact that some people stake their dreams and hopes so hard on what is basically just a career on needing to be the "best of the best" is astonishingly short sighted about life.
 
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