Residency matching as a DO

[the prodogy]

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I've wanted to go into DO aside from MD because it's always seemed as though DO's learned more in med school. The thing is that I've heard that DOs usually focus on primary care. So when it comes to residency matching, how much harder is it to get into residencies such as anesthesia, radiology, PMR, or even the already competitve derm? Do you believe that it is harder to get into those residencies as a DO? What steps do you need to take to get into those residencies?

 

[JaggerPlate]

I've wanted to go into DO aside from MD because it's always seemed as though DO's learned more in med school. The thing is that I've heard that DOs usually focus on primary care. So when it comes to residency matching, how much harder is it to get into residencies such as anesthesia, radiology, PMR, or even the already competitve derm? Do you believe that it is harder to get into those residencies as a DO? What steps do you need to take to get into those residencies?

1. DOs don't learn 'more' than MDs. They have, for the most part, identical pre-clinical years with additional OMM training for the DOs. However, this isn't really 'more' as far as learning medicine is concerned, more an additional tool you can use somewhere down the road (if you choose). It probably seems like you should, but trying to say DOs are 'more' than MDs ... will start a flurry (ps I know, I'm a pre-med ... anyone can reject what I say if they choose)

2. DOs focusing on primary care isn't a blanket statement. There are a lot of DO schools that put a lot of studnets in PC residencies and have a lot of PC themes woven into their philosophies, but your simply going to medical school to become a physician, and specialzing is very fesiable as a DO.

3. Gas - you can go ACGME or AOA. Most people say ACGME is the 'gold standard' but DOs are very well represented in ACGME gas. This leads me to believe if you make yourself a competitive candidate, you can match it.
Rads- competitive, you'll probably need to go AOA. I really don't know the stats for DOs in ACGME Rads, but I'm guessing it's fairly low.
PM&R - very well represented with DOs in ACGME, I think there are only a few AOA residencies. One of the few where you can really use OMM, and I really don't think there is any bias towards DOs in this field. The head of the PM&R department at Harvard is a DO.
Derm - suit up, because you're going to war. The thing about derm is that it's the most competitive all around right now. Look on the MD side of the fence, you have people with perfect step I, tons of published derm research, great derm LORs etc ... and don't match. These people then go do research or get a freaking PhD (exaggerating ... but only a little) JUST to match derm eventually. With that said ... matching ACGME derm as a DO is pretty much out of the question. There are 1-2 people who do it every year ... these people are rockstars, and (no offense) you probably won't be one of them. With that said ... you can match AOA derm, but the spots are small, some are unfunded, and you basically have to be just as good, but on the AOA side. The pacific derm residency through Western says their desired candidate are top 15% class, 85th percentile COMLEX, LORs from osteopathic derms, etc etc. And these are 'desired' qualities to possibly interview for a spot at an unfunded derm residency. People drink sheep's blood and sacrifice their first born for derm ... if you want it, do that.

Wheww ... rant over.

 

[SomeDoc]

1. DOs don't learn 'more' than MDs. They have, for the most part, identical pre-clinical years with additional OMM training for the DOs. However, this isn't really 'more' as far as learning medicine is concerned, more an additional tool you can use somewhere down the road (if you choose). It probably seems like you should, but trying to say DOs are 'more' than MDs ... will start a flurry (ps I know, I'm a pre-med ... anyone can reject what I say if they choose)

2. DOs focusing on primary care isn't a blanket statement. There are a lot of DO schools that put a lot of studnets in PC residencies and have a lot of PC themes woven into their philosophies, but your simply going to medical school to become a physician, and specialzing is very fesiable as a DO.

3. Gas - you can go ACGME or AOA. Most people say ACGME is the 'gold standard' but DOs are very well represented in ACGME gas. This leads me to believe if you make yourself a competitive candidate, you can match it.
Rads- competitive, you'll probably need to go AOA. I really don't know the stats for DOs in ACGME Rads, but I'm guessing it's fairly low.
PM&R - very well represented with DOs in ACGME, I think there are only a few AOA residencies. One of the few where you can really use OMM, and I really don't think there is any bias towards DOs in this field. The head of the PM&R department at Harvard is a DO.
Derm - suit up, because you're going to war. The thing about derm is that it's the most competitive all around right now. Look on the MD side of the fence, you have people with perfect step I, tons of published derm research, great derm LORs etc ... and don't match. These people then go do research or get a freaking PhD (exaggerating ... but only a little) JUST to match derm eventually. With that said ... matching ACGME derm as a DO is pretty much out of the question. There are 1-2 people who do it every year ... these people are rockstars, and (no offense) you probably won't be one of them. With that said ... you can match AOA derm, but the spots are small, some are unfunded, and you basically have to be just as good, but on the AOA side. The pacific derm residency through Western says their desired candidate are top 15% class, 85th percentile COMLEX, LORs from osteopathic derms, etc etc. And these are 'desired' qualities to possibly interview for a spot at an unfunded derm residency. People drink sheep's blood and sacrifice their first born for derm ... if you want it, do that.

Wheww ... rant over.

Great post.
Agree with everything except underlined.

 

[rddoms]

'nuff said. The first DO I ever met was a KCOM grad doing Gas at a west coast academic program. Seemed like they had a couple DO's every year.

 

[rkaz]

'nuff said. The first DO I ever met was a KCOM grad doing Gas at a west coast academic program. Seemed like they had a couple DO's every year.

What does 'gas' mean? I always thought it was an abbreviation for gastroenterology, but that is a fellowship and not a residency... ?

 

[4Doc4]

What does 'gas' mean? I always thought it was an abbreviation for gastroenterology, but that is a fellowship and not a residency... ?

What is Anesthesiology.

 

[Revilla]

What does 'gas' mean? I always thought it was an abbreviation for gastroenterology, but that is a fellowship and not a residency... ?

It's anesthesiology.

 

[4Doc4]

It's anesthesiology.

Beat ya! 😉

 

[JaggerPlate]

What does 'gas' mean? I always thought it was an abbreviation for gastroenterology, but that is a fellowship and not a residency... ?

Yup (to what others said). I always say gas because I don't want to type out anesthesiology.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Great post.
Agree with everything except underlined.

How so? I obviously think you have more experience than me, and I was just curious. I was under the impression that DOs who matched MD derm were out of this league, and that you shouldn't count on becoming one of these rockstars?? It's like when undergrads are going into the last few weeks of a semester with two midterms at 75 % and 77% and tell themsevles they can still get an A- in the class if they pull of a 100% on the final??

 

[schrute]

How so? I obviously think you have more experience than me, and I was just curious. I was under the impression that DOs who matched MD derm were out of this league, and that you shouldn't count on becoming one of these rockstars?? It's like when undergrads are going into the last few weeks of a semester with two midterms at 75 % and 77% and tell themsevles they can still get an A- in the class if they pull of a 100% on the final??

Part of the advantage of MDs going into specialties like derm and ortho is that they can rotate in the depts as 3rd or 4th yrs and make a good impression. Away rotations can accomplish this too, but for DOs seeking ACGME derm, you're generally in a pool with the uber-competitive MD applicants, so all things being equal in the applicant pool (99th %ile, top 5 in class, research, whatever) I harbor the logic that programs favor their own, and wouldn't pick a DO simply for the novelty of it.

Yes, there are exceptions to every rule, in addition to the fact that many students who would go ACGME derm simply don't bother with the hastle and just go AOA. If you're top of your class and smoke boards, I'm sure you'll be fine, really. But I think doing so labels you a "rock star," and "non-rock-stars" get into AOA derm/rads/gas all the time.

Plus...getting ACGME derm absolutely requires one to take USMLE 1 and 2...and absolutley smoking it...that alone is inhibitory to many applicants.

 

[hooperg]

I've wanted to go into DO aside from MD because it's always seemed as though DO's learned more in med school. The thing is that I've heard that DOs usually focus on primary care. So when it comes to residency matching, how much harder is it to get into residencies such as anesthesia, radiology, PMR, or even the already competitve derm? Do you believe that it is harder to get into those residencies as a DO? What steps do you need to take to get into those residencies?

You can do whatever you want: MD or DO. Just work really hard, make good impressions, and stay honorable. Follow these three points of advice, and you could be reading scans/inducing/Electroretinogram-ing Jesus Himself! 👍

 

[SomeDoc]

How so? I obviously think you have more experience than me, and I was just curious. I was under the impression that DOs who matched MD derm were out of this league, and that you shouldn't count on becoming one of these rockstars?? It's like when undergrads are going into the last few weeks of a semester with two midterms at 75 % and 77% and tell themsevles they can still get an A- in the class if they pull of a 100% on the final??

If others can do it, so can you, or the OP.

 

[JaggerPlate]

If others can do it, so can you, or the OP.

True.

 

[Instatewaiter]

Jagger's post pretty much nailed it.

Just going from match lists:

ACGME Gas is not terribly hard to match as a DO. You will see a handful of students from each DO school match MD gas.

ACGME Rads is hard but again do-able.

ACGME PM&R has a very, very strong DO constituent. The board scores needed are generally pretty low/its not that competitive and after the manipulative training this seems right up many DOs' alleys

If you want to do derm, not only do you need to go MD but you also need to plan to be at the very top of the class and smoke the boards. Remember most people in your med class are the cream of the crop from their respective undergrads. I hate to be a stick in the mud but the odds of the average entering med student matching derm is pretty darn low. Most students are not used to being anywhere near the bottom of the class. Half of those students will be at the bottom half of the class.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Jagger's post pretty much nailed it.

Just going from match lists:

ACGME Gas is not terribly hard to match as a DO. You will see a handful of students from each DO school match MD gas.

ACGME Rads is hard but again do-able.

ACGME PM&R has a very, very strong DO constituent. The board scores needed are generally pretty low/its not that competitive and after the manipulative training this seems right up many DOs' alleys

If you want to do derm, not only do you need to go MD but you also need to plan to be at the very top of the class and smoke the boards. Remember most people in your med class are the cream of the crop from their respective undergrads. I hate to be a stick in the mud but the odds of the average entering med student matching derm is pretty darn low. Most students are not used to being anywhere near the bottom of the class. Half of those students will be at the bottom half of the class.

I agree, but I've actually always been curious about the stats on DO derm. I mean, it just makes me wonder if the PDs are looking for different things than MD derm, and what the people who match DO derm would look like in an alternate universe coming from an MD school (ie would they have the amazing step I they need, etc). I also know that away rotations are extremely important with AOA residencies, so I'd be surprised if a solid student (ie top 85% COMLEX, 15% of class) with a good attitude and some solid away rotations couldn't match AOA derm. However, I don't think this person would match ACGME derm as an MD, not because of a different caliber of applicant, but because of the differences in the programs. There was a DO student on the Derm boards one time to spoke all about this, but it was a long time ago, I don't know the validity behind it, and I don't know if he went into derm. The only DO derm I know on the boards is TripleJ ... I'd just be curious.

 

[rddoms]

Here's a question for you: When will a DO break the integrated plastics barrier? It seems as though (nearly) all other ACGME residencies have been attained by DO's, so isn't it about time?

 

[JaggerPlate]

Here's a question for you: When will a DO break the integrated plastics barrier? It seems as though (nearly) all other ACGME residencies have been attained by DO's, so isn't it about time?

I think that one has a two forced hell no factor: 1. It's probably still the most competitive of all 2. It's run by the good ole' boys who aren't overtly fond of DOs (damned osteopaths !!!).

 

[rddoms]

While those are valid points, I think it will eventually happen. I guess only time will tell. We'll see if I have the guts to apply when that time comes.

 

[MossPoh]

When you have a speciality with very very very very very limited spots and have the vast majority of applicants for those spots being MDs then it is going to be difficult to match into it. It isn't an MD versus a DO thing as much as it is having the opportunity rotate there, research and get the letters that impress. Every student who matches to something so competitive will be phenomenal students. When you are aiming for something like that you really have to shine regardless of your degree, not because of it. If all else was held equal and you had 100 blue marbles and 1 red marble in the bucket, the odds are with a blue marble being chosen. The amount of DOs willing to skip the AOA match and put their money on only the ACGME are few for something like that. Odds are they will interview for both GS and integrated spots and then rank the integrated spots higher for the most part, but it can still be a risky bet depending on the student.

 

[rddoms]

I completely agree. All I am saying is that if someone is truly a rockstar and is better than other applicants, then hopefully the degree will not matter. One of the programs I am looking at allows DO students to sign up for student clerkships, even though we can't use the VSAS (this is stated on their website, unlike many other programs). Many other programs at the university have taken DO's for several years, so maybe it is about time for some of us to give it a shot. The worst case scenario is scrambling for general surgery, and trying or a plastics fellowship after that. Maybe I am dreaming, but it never hurts to try.

 

[Bacchus]

I've wanted to go into DO aside from MD because it's always seemed as though DO's learned more in med school. The thing is that I've heard that DOs usually focus on primary care. So when it comes to residency matching, how much harder is it to get into residencies such as anesthesia, radiology, PMR, or even the already competitve derm? Do you believe that it is harder to get into those residencies as a DO? What steps do you need to take to get into those residencies?

Read the current thread on where people are matching. They've matched into things such as ortho and gas.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Here's a question for you: When will a DO break the integrated plastics barrier? It seems as though (nearly) all other ACGME residencies have been attained by DO's, so isn't it about time?

Probably on the same day they break the ortho and urology barriers.

Fact: this year in the San Francisco match, two DOs matched MD urology.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Read the current thread on where people are matching. They've matched into things such as ortho and gas.

Careful. I matched ortho this year, but DO ortho. Matching MD ortho is about as likely is getting struck by lightning and winning the lottery in the same day.

 

[Taus]

This was mentioned briefly earlier in the thread......but another major reason that DO's haven't been matching into extremely competative allopathic programs such as Ortho and ENT is the following:

In order to match into an allopathic program, you must have the brass balls to bypass the DO match that occurs a month before the MD match. If you don't match into an allopathic program that year, all of the DO spots will be gone. Therefore, most of the strong applicants who would have somewhat of a shot are choosing DO programs.

 

[rddoms]

I guess I need to guage the "brassness" of my balls before I decide. How many osteopathic applicants do you think apply for ACGME integrated/combined plastics? I am guessing that the number is quite low.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

I guess I need to guage the "brassness" of my balls before I decide. How many osteopathic applicants do you think apply for ACGME integrated/combined plastics? I am guessing that the number is quite low.

Unless you score a 260+ on the USMLE, I don't care if your balls are made of solid lead, you'd be a ******* to skip the AOA match.

 

[rddoms]

Unless you score a 260+ on the USMLE, I don't care if your balls are made of solid lead, you'd be a ******* to skip the AOA match.

That is a given (If I were to do something like that, I would be asking for failure). The only reason I am interested in ACGME is location. I would be thrilled to match GS and then PRS at some of the AOA residencies, but I have never been to OH, MI, PA, etc. I guess another thing I should do is take a roadtrip to those sites.

At least I have a few years before the application process starts.

 

[ChiDO]

Probably on the same day they break the ortho and urology barriers.

Fact: this year in the San Francisco match, two DOs matched MD urology.

Two DOs matched last year in MD ortho. I think there's usually been 2-5 over the past 5 years.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Two DOs matched last year in MD ortho. I think there's usually been 2-5 over the past 5 years.

I thought it was two also. Two is basically zero.

 

[clement]

I think that one has a two forced hell no factor: 1. It's probably still the most competitive of all 2. It's run by the good ole' boys who aren't overtly fond of DOs (damned osteopaths !!!).

My 2:

Plastics is an aesthetic field that attracts a certain profile.

There are programs out there that believe the more IMG's and DO's they have, the worse they look.

I can see how this happens with plastics beyond the fact that it's uber-competitive.